The Christian Foundation of the United States:

[bodecea]

That's neither here nor there. Whether they were correct or not in their pursuit of their religion, the fact remains...

they structured it upon Chrsitian tenets.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. "

That isn't a specifically Christian tenet.

It isn't even Christian....I would like to see ANYONE show us scripture that discusses the equality of men and how we are born with certain rights.

 

[AllieBaba]

Let's not forget that James Madison, considered the Father of the Constitution, was a HUGE Enlightenment follower and brought lots of Enlightment essays and tracts to the Constitutional Convention.

And many of the Framers were also Freemasons....a lot was worked into the Constitution...and earlier the Dec of Ind that was first Freemason ideas...such as that all men are created equal.

So have we switched subjects?

Cuz the thread is about whether or not Christian tenets were employed in the structuring of this country.
The quotes above prove they were.

So now are we talking about the Constititution? Or are we talking about what faiths the FF were? Because, as I'm sure you know, those are completely different subjects.

Exactly what we are discussing...those tenets employed ARE NOT Christian tenets, they are Enlightenment/Freemasonry tenets.

Oh, ok.

 

[AllieBaba]

That's neither here nor there. Whether they were correct or not in their pursuit of their religion, the fact remains...

they structured it upon Chrsitian tenets.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. "

That isn't a specifically Christian tenet.

It isn't even Christian....I would like to see ANYONE show us scripture that discusses the equality of men and how we are born with certain rights.

Oh, I see. The FF were lying, or mistaken, when they said they were structuring the country on Christian values.

Thanks for setting us, and the world, straight, Bod. You're great!

 

[lizzie]

That's silly and redundant. The NT is full of references to the equality of all men. It's the point of planting Christ in the home of a poor laborer.

from Plato (estimated year of birth 427 BC):

All men are by nature equal, made all of the same earth by one Workman; and however we deceive ourselves, as dear unto God is the poor peasant as the mighty prince.

 

[lizzie]

Oh, I see. The FF were lying, or mistaken, when they said they were structuring the country on Christian values.

Thanks for setting us, and the world, straight, Bod. You're great!

Christianity =/= Christian values. Christian values are similar to Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, and other religious values.

 

[jillian]

That isn't a specifically Christian tenet.

It isn't even Christian....I would like to see ANYONE show us scripture that discusses the equality of men and how we are born with certain rights.

Oh, I see. The FF were lying, or mistaken, when they said they were structuring the country on Christian values.

Thanks for setting us, and the world, straight, Bod. You're great!

the country was founded in the political philosophy of rousseau, mill, locke and the other great philosophers. there was nothing religious in the basis of the country. and if you read the political philosophers, you would read much of what you see in our founding.

there is a reason there is a separation of church and state, allie.

 

[AllieBaba]

That's silly and redundant. The NT is full of references to the equality of all men. It's the point of planting Christ in the home of a poor laborer.

from Plato (estimated year of birth 427 BC):

All men are by nature equal, made all of the same earth by one Workman; and however we deceive ourselves, as dear unto God is the poor peasant as the mighty prince.

And that proves it's not a Christian tenet...how???? Because Plato believed it too?

Comes down to this...the people who structured the foundations of this country did not reference Rome, or Plato, or Freemasonry, when they TOLD US WHAT THEY WERE STRUCTURING THE FOUNDATION on. They TOLD us they were structuring it on Christian values, and looking for the support of God.

So if you want to argue they were LYING, then that's another subject. But what they, the founders, said, and what they appeared to be trying to do, and what they SAID they were trying to do, was to create a union that was pleasing to God, as they believed liberty came from God and should be protected.

So would you like to state that you think they were lying, and we can go from there?

 

[AllieBaba]

It isn't even Christian....I would like to see ANYONE show us scripture that discusses the equality of men and how we are born with certain rights.

Oh, I see. The FF were lying, or mistaken, when they said they were structuring the country on Christian values.

Thanks for setting us, and the world, straight, Bod. You're great!

the country was founded in the political philosophy of rousseau, mill, locke and the other great philosophers. there was nothing religious in the basis of the country. and if you read the political philosophers, you would read much of what you see in our founding.

there is a reason there is a separation of church and state, allie.

Really? Please provide the reference that consists of a founding father or the courts stating that the country was founded in the political philosophy of rousseau, mill, locke and other great philosophers.

Do you think the founding fathers were lying when they said they were founding it upon Chrsitian principle? Do you suppose they didn't know what they were saying? I know that's the way you guys excuse Obama's outrageousness.

 

[AllieBaba]

BTW, the separation of church and state came up in letters between Jefferson and a Baptist minister. In order to protect freedom of religion, the state cannot force religion upon the people. And that is also a Christian precept....salvation is not salvation when it is forced upon people.

 

[lizzie]

And that proves it's not a Christian tenet...how???? Because Plato believed it too?

Comes down to this...the people who structured the foundations of this country did not reference Rome, or Plato, or Freemasonry, when they TOLD US WHAT THEY WERE STRUCTURING THE FOUNDATION on. They TOLD us they were structuring it on Christian values, and looking for the support of God.

So if you want to argue they were LYING, then that's another subject. But what they, the founders, said, and what they appeared to be trying to do, and what they SAID they were trying to do, was to create a union that was pleasing to God, as they believed liberty came from God and should be protected.

So would you like to state that you think they were lying, and we can go from there?

It doesn't prove it's not a Christian tenet. It shows that Christianity has a Platonic basis in some of the values expressed in the NT. Christian values are the same as many other religious values, and are not exclusive to Christianity.

Several of the FF had no admiration for "Christianity the dogma and church". That doesn't mean they had no reverence for the ideals, for the ideals of equality of men predated Christianity by at least hundreds of years.

 

[k2skier]

Was the US founded on Christian principles? « Allusions of Grandeur

Was the US founded on Christian principles?

No. No it wasn’t.

Pharyngula links to the webpage of the Family Research Council, which currently holds a poll titled, “Do you believe that America, as a nation, was founded upon Christian principles?” Due to the Pharynguloid influence, “No” is currently leading at 91%, but that’s not the point. The point is that this question should not be asked in the first place.

The US is emphatically not founded on Christian principles. This is explicitly stated in the Constitution, both in the First Amendment (“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;”) and in Article VI, section 3 (“…no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”) In addition, the Treaty of Tripoli, itself a legally binding document, bears these words: “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion…”

The United States is a secular nation, not a Christian nation. Any claim to the contrary is founded in ignorance of the Constitution, or in delusion. Check mate, I’m afraid, for the Dominionists.

 

[AllieBaba]

Oh. So because a poll says the people polled don't know what the US was founded upon, that means it wasn't founded upon Christian principles.

This is insane.

Who founded this country? And what did they say they were basing the structure upon?

 

[bodecea]

That's silly and redundant. The NT is full of references to the equality of all men. It's the point of planting Christ in the home of a poor laborer.

But that's a different topic, too.

Are we arguing about bible content now? Should I make you a thread for every topic so you can keep them straight?

Where?

 

[AllieBaba]

Again. Founding the country on Christian principles is NOT the same as establishing a theocracy.

Why is this so difficult to grasp?

 

[AllieBaba]

That's silly and redundant. The NT is full of references to the equality of all men. It's the point of planting Christ in the home of a poor laborer.

But that's a different topic, too.

Are we arguing about bible content now? Should I make you a thread for every topic so you can keep them straight?

Where?

What do you mean "where"? Here. on this board. I'm offering to start you up a new thread for each new topic you introduce.

 

[bodecea]

That isn't a specifically Christian tenet.

It isn't even Christian....I would like to see ANYONE show us scripture that discusses the equality of men and how we are born with certain rights.

Oh, I see. The FF were lying, or mistaken, when they said they were structuring the country on Christian values.

Thanks for setting us, and the world, straight, Bod. You're great!

If you look to the writing of our Founders, they say a little of everything...you quote Jefferson....ok, Jefferson ALSO said our government was specifically designes to have a separation between church and state.

You quote Franklin...he wasn't even Christian.

You've quoted John Q. Adams....he also said our nation was NOT founded on Christian principles.

Seems to me, we have Founders that pandered in their quotes depending on who they talked to....just like today.

I look to the Product...the Constitution. Where are the Christian tenets in the Framework of our government? They...are...not...there, Allie.

 

[lizzie]

Again. Founding the country on Christian principles is NOT the same as establishing a theocracy.

Why is this so difficult to grasp?

Who said it was?

 

[bodecea]

That's silly and redundant. The NT is full of references to the equality of all men. It's the point of planting Christ in the home of a poor laborer.

from Plato (estimated year of birth 427 BC):

All men are by nature equal, made all of the same earth by one Workman; and however we deceive ourselves, as dear unto God is the poor peasant as the mighty prince.

Well, well...need we point out that Plato was not a Christian....

 

[bodecea]

That's silly and redundant. The NT is full of references to the equality of all men. It's the point of planting Christ in the home of a poor laborer.

from Plato (estimated year of birth 427 BC):

All men are by nature equal, made all of the same earth by one Workman; and however we deceive ourselves, as dear unto God is the poor peasant as the mighty prince.

And that proves it's not a Christian tenet...how???? Because Plato believed it too?

Comes down to this...the people who structured the foundations of this country did not reference Rome, or Plato, or Freemasonry, when they TOLD US WHAT THEY WERE STRUCTURING THE FOUNDATION on. They TOLD us they were structuring it on Christian values, and looking for the support of God.

So if you want to argue they were LYING, then that's another subject. But what they, the founders, said, and what they appeared to be trying to do, and what they SAID they were trying to do, was to create a union that was pleasing to God, as they believed liberty came from God and should be protected.

So would you like to state that you think they were lying, and we can go from there?

Well, how can something be a christian tenet when it predates christianity?

 

[bodecea]

Oh, I see. The FF were lying, or mistaken, when they said they were structuring the country on Christian values.

Thanks for setting us, and the world, straight, Bod. You're great!

the country was founded in the political philosophy of rousseau, mill, locke and the other great philosophers. there was nothing religious in the basis of the country. and if you read the political philosophers, you would read much of what you see in our founding.

there is a reason there is a separation of church and state, allie.

Really? Please provide the reference that consists of a founding father or the courts stating that the country was founded in the political philosophy of rousseau, mill, locke and other great philosophers.
Do you think the founding fathers were lying when they said they were founding it upon Chrsitian principle? Do you suppose they didn't know what they were saying? I know that's the way you guys excuse Obama's outrageousness.

Oh....My.....God! Did you seriously just say that you don't believe our country was founded on the political philosophies of Rousseau, Mill, Locke, and other Enlightenment philosophers?

Did you?