The Catholic doctrine of purgatory

[Book of Jeremiah]

You have a wonderful perpective on God, Becki. Very refreshing. I do believe God looks upon the heart. I believe there have been cases where people who didn't know about him died and said they met the LORD and they happily received their salvation and then were revived and could tell others this happened to them. I am sure many doctors and nurses have these type stories to tell from their patients.

Bottom line here is God is not looking for a way to send any of us to hell. He is continually looking for ways to reach us. His plans for us are good. All good. We have a very good God. That is good news.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

How do you reconcile the first line of your post with the fact that the best that the son of man can do is as filthy rags to the Lord?

If any Monkey can save himself through his works, doesn't that pretty much reduce the death of Jesus to its entertainment value?

About your second paragraph, St. James noted that "Faith without works is dead." Works should be the shining light that faith brought good things about, replacing childish things.

And since we're not perfect creatures, AVG-JOE, Isaiah's filthy rags comment will always hold true. That's why faith in God is a must, and why works just fall in line, each according to his or her gifts. Christ takes the onus off the small stuff like stepping on a crack and breaking one's mother's back or stepping on a line and breaking one's father's spine. Silly laws don't count. Important laws count, although even then, God picks. The very man who delivered the Ten Commandments to the Israelites was wanted for murder in Egypt for killing a guard who was beating his relatives, who were considered the least in the kingdom. It all rests on the benevolence and purpose of God. At least, that's what I think.

As for Moses' offenses against Egyptian laws, maybe it took someone who was remorseful for killing someone to know that act is a biggie in the sight of God. So God picks, but there's a reason he does so.

To imperfections!

My imperfections are greater than your imperfections. If that makes you feel any better.

-Jeremiah

 

[AVG-JOE]

Define 'imperfections'.

I'm pretty enough, but I'm kind of a sociopath.

 

[freedombecki]

"Sociopath" is only a word that describes a human being who has a schism between himself and a lack of sympathy for other people. I don't think a guy who created a thread on spiders could ever be a sociopath, AVG-JOE. After all, the black widow loves her mate to death.

Well, you know what I mean.

 

[editec]

What makes you think it's either the Catholics or the Protestants that are correct on the matter?

There is a space between our death and our resurrection. You can call this place purgatory if you choose. In this place there is a separation between the righteous and the wicked. The scriptures described this place as Paradise/Abraham's bosom, or prison/hell.

Before the death of Christ, there was a gulf between the areas. The righteous could not mingle with the wicked nor vice versa. Christ ripped down the gulf. He preached the Gospel of Deliverence to those who were once wicked in the time of Noah and the Flood. The Gospel was, is, and will be preached to the dead so that all those who had no opportunity to hear of Christ in the Flesh, will have a chance for Redemption.

The Lord will redeem all the dead who will come to Him. He has already paid the price for their Resurrection.

Can anyone point to anything in the BIBLE, (old Testment or NEW) that supports the NOTION of purgatory?

I can't.

So where does this THEORY come from?

 

[The Irish Ram]

According to the rules I remember, the best works of man mean nothing to God.

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Isn't that why Jesus had to die? Because ALL are sinners? How can God give some a pass based on their works when he insists on the blood of his son to pay the debt of others? Now THAT would be an injustice. Wouldn't that render the gift of eternal life 'cheap'?

Yes it would, and it does. That is the point. If all have sinned and fallen short, why would you take your chance at the White Throne Judgement with sin in hand? What defense do you think the atheist for example, could possibly present? A pass would indicate that GOD didn't think Christ's death was enough. That is not going to happen.

If you had the opportunity to have your sin forgiven and didn't seize the opportunity, the outcome of your trial is not going to be in your favor. But there are 2 groups of people that are unique.

How much better for the Jew to be covered by the blood of Christ, than to rely on their adherence to the Law. How many do you think will be able to prove they never broke 1 of the 600 laws?
Keep in mind that they were covered by the grace of God but due to self pride, they asked God for those Laws, so He gave them, and 3, 000 dropped dead on the spot. Because all men have sinned, good luck to the Jew in court trying to convince God that they have never sinned.
He gave them the Law, He can't condemn them for living the Law, but 1 sin, 1 broken law is enough to keep them out of Heaven. Knowing that, He sent them Christ.

(side note, so that all Jews aren't lost, Bible prophesy says those alive during the tribulation will accept Christ. In one single day. Every one of the 12 tribes will have remnants that will survive) < Those Jews, being covered by the Blood of Christ, will not be answering for their sins, according to the Law, at the White Throne Judgement.

The other group are those that knew nothing about this Christ person. They lived and died with no knowledge of the propitiation of Christ, so while they may have sinned, Christ died for all man's sin. God will judge their hearts.

 

[turzovka]

&#8220;Can anyone point to anything in the BIBLE, (old Testment or NEW) that supports the NOTION of purgatory? I can't.&#8221;


I gave you four passages to begin with. Did you offer any scholarly or solid explanations refuting mine and the Church&#8217;s contention that these idea take place in the hereafter? Were you able to tell me with confidence what Paul&#8217;s words refer to, if not purgatory? ("If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.")

Is Fatima of the devil? Is it not supernatural? Or is it the Virgin Mother which is the only serious explanation given all of the facts? She speaks of purgatory to the children. She also shows them a vivid vision of hell from which they scream out horribly. So do you doubt Fatima? Why? Is it because it&#8217;s too Catholic? But if you do not doubt Fatima then explain to me how God would have the children lie? Tell truth about Mary appearing, tell the truth about Mary showing them hell, but when she tells them of purgatory she is lieing? That is not the nature of God.

As to most of the rest of you --- I see you have opted to try to prove your non-Catholic theology on salvation, et al. instead of addressing the verses presented on purgatory. Well I can defend Catholic theology, too, on many subjects including salvation that contradict your packaged offering. But I am discussing purgatory, not &#8220;we are saved by faith alone and pay no further attention to the man behind that curtain."


More verses in Scripture we contend speaks of purgatory.


Matthew 18:32-35
Then summoning him, his lord said to him, &#8220;You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?&#8221; And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.

[&#8220;My heavenly Father will also do the same to you.&#8221; Do what?... hand you over to the torturers until you should repay all that was owed him. Is this not clear? This is purgatory. You will be tortured, but you will be released after you have made amends! Praise God for he is both just and merciful.]


James 2:24
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[Yes, we most certainly are judged by our works, and maybe much more to the point, by our level of indifference towards others. If we do not show obedience and sacrifice then we are not fully justified. Does that mean hell... or maybe some purification necessary for many believers?]


1 John 5:16-17
&#8220;Anyone who sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, should petition God, and thus life will be given to the sinner. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as a deadly sin; I do not say that one should pray about that. True all wrongdoing is sin, but not all sin is deadly.&#8221;

[Some sin condemns one to hell, other sins are spoken of as not deadly, meaning they have some retribution carried with it, but not hell. If this person dies with these unconfessed sins still on their souls does it sound likely they will not still need to be accounted for? Does not the Lord say &#8220;nothing defiled shall enter the kingdom?&#8221; It all speaks of a purification still required.]


Matthew 16:27
&#8220;The Son of Man will come with his Father&#8217;s glory accompanied by his angels. When he does, he will repay each man according to his conduct.&#8221;

[Seems pretty clear that our conduct (i.e. obedience, works) are as or more important than our confession of faith in determining our destiny. And if we be a believer, but our conduct is very bad, yet not fatal, then this highly implies a penance before our being able to enter the kingdom. Being repaid according to his conduct does not suggest a &#8220;lesser crown of glory&#8221; awarded in heaven, but more so some kind of penance for misconduct.]


Matthew 21:31
Jesus *said to them, &#8220;Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.

[Jesus talking to the Pharisees says that the harlots and tax collectors will be allowed into heaven before you. You is other believers listening to his words I presume. The point here is that some will be allowed into heaven before some others who think they deserve heaven too. Before is a glorious word because it implies eventually you will get into heaven too, but it is apparent something must take place before you are allowed in.]


Hebrews 12:14
Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

[In other words, one must be made holy (read: pure) before they can see the Lord (read: enter the kingdom).]


Jeremiah 17:9-10
More tortuous than all else is the human heart, beyond remedy; who can understand it? I, the Lord, alone probe the mind and search the heart, to reward everyone according to his ways, according to the merit of his deeds.

[Sounds to me as though there are all kinds of levels of judgment according to the merits of his deeds. This much more suggests some purification taking place and not just hell for everyone who did not have a charitable enough heart.]


Ezekiel 33: 7-9
&#8220;Now as for you, son of man, I have appointed you a watchman for the house of Israel; so you will hear a message from My mouth and give them warning from Me. When I say to the wicked, &#8216;O wicked man, you will surely die,&#8217; and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require from your hand.

[The wicked man appears to have suffered eternal death, but also the one (the believer) who did not warn the wicked man of his sins, that one God will also require some recompense for our lack of duty. Does it sound as though God is saying the believer shall &#8220;die in his iniquity?&#8221; No, but it does sound as though there is some retribution required for the sin on our part.]


Zechariah 13: 8-9
&#8220;It will come about in all the land,&#8221; declares the Lord, &#8220;that two parts in it will be cut off and perish; but the third will be left in it. And I will bring the third part through the fire, refine them as silver is refined, and test them as gold is tested.&#8221;

[This could be referring to the end times only, but the refining the saved through fire could also mean purgatory as well. It can easily explain the plights of both.]


Mark 10:17-23
As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. "You know the commandments, Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bear false witness, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.&#8217; &#8221; And he said to Him, "Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up."Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, "One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property. And Jesus, looking around, *said to His disciples, "How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!"

[Saved by &#8220;faith alone?&#8221; Not likely. And can it be any clearer? Jesus is demanding acts of obedience and charity in order to be worthy for the kingdom of heaven. And then he goes on to explain how difficult it is for a very wealthy man to enter heaven. Why? Not because he is incapable of an act of faith and accepting Jesus as his Savior. But because more is required. He must sacrifice much of his great favor in service to his fellow man. If he does not, he has been too selfish or greedy and he will have to pay some price. Jesus said he cannot enter in that state, he did not say the rich man is condemned to hell.]


John 20:20-23
And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord. He said therefore to them again: &#8220;Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.&#8221; When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: &#8220;Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.&#8221;

[Jesus is bestowing special graces or authority on those disciples &#8220;so ordained.&#8221; Some sins are forgiven and others are retained. What becomes of a believer whose sins are retained and dies in that state? Hell? Unreasonable. God is merciful. A cleansing or purification is more the meaning here.]


Colossians 1:24
Even now I find my joy in the suffering I endure for you. In my own flesh I fill up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ for the sake of his body, the church.

[This passage has had various interpretations, but it at least suggests something required by man besides believing to do something God is asking of us. It also makes special reference to His church.]

 

[The Irish Ram]

We can. We have, but you don't listen.

There is no sin on earth that Christ did not pay for in our place.
When God looks at a human covered by the blood of Christ, He sees Christ. WE EXCHANGED PLACES AT THE CROSS. Our righteousness has nothing to do with "making it" into Heaven. It is Christ's righteousness that we are accepted by way of. WE ALL FALL SHORT.
So, to believe in purgatory, means God would be sending the righteousness of Christ to be tortured until it cries uncle, and achieves forgiveness.

Purgatory screams that Christ wasn't successful in transfusing our sin infected blood with His pure blood.

The verse you quoted proves my point.
Those covered in the blood of Christ have no sin, and face no judgement regarding it. If we did, then God is a liar. Because God said, "I remember your sins NO MORE".
For those that accept Christ's gift, there is one judgement only. For the amount of reward you are entitled to.
The criteria is:
GOOD works that you performed on earth for Christ vs. GOOD works you did for your ego.
Just as gold is refined by fire, the ego/impure works burn off. What is left is pure, and determines your reward. The more works you did for ego, the more works burn off, and that is the loss your suffer.
That you are saved is clear! You are in Heaven during the reward event! Your there! Saved and sin free, standing in the presence of the Lord. No sin anywhere near you, because Christ disposed of them for you.


But I have a few questions for you.
Explain to me how Christ was insufficient in His mission, thereby warranting a torment station. If Christ had suffered more, or longer on the cross, would He have then accomplished His goal of ridding the earth of the consequence of sin?
How short of His goal was He, and what % of His failure remains for us to be tortured for,
and did you black out the verse in the Bible that tells us that we children of God, are not appointed to God's wrath? Wouldn't torment apply?
Tur, your father loves you. No torture. Love.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Is Fatima of the devil? Is it not supernatural?

Is the devil not supernatural also? Could he not fool children? He fooled Eve......
While Fatima may or may not be valid, putting your faith in it when you could put your faith in the Word, is a bad choice. The anti-Christ will bring statues to life and work miracles. How will you differentiate as to their origin. Supernatural doesn't always equate to God.

&#8220;we are saved by faith alone and pay no further attention to the man behind that curtain."

Here is what the Bible says,
Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

But if you go back to the original Greek it reads:

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christos."

And Christ said,

John 12:47 "If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge them. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world."

Notice 2 things about what Jesus said, no human participation included in His objective, and counting sins for the torture chamber would require judging.

I'll catch up with the rest of your verses when I get home.
Jesus loves you. There is no torture in your future.

 

[The Irish Ram]

"Judged" = "going to hell", doesn't it?

O.k. - back on track then.

Carry on.

There are crowns - there are rewards - there is even going to be people who will rule over cities once the Lord begins His reign. Some will even rule over 10 cities. Imagine that. There is so much more than you realize when it comes to ruling and reigning with Jesus Christ. You cannot imagine how foolish these globalists have been. They thought they were going to rule this world and instead will get hell.

The ones they murdered ( the christians ) will be ruling and reigning and not only that but the LORD says we will have new glorified bodies that will never age. Here the illuminati is boasting of their fountain of youth they have discovered and God is offering eternal life as in you'll never age - ever. Are they stupid or what?

Why is it that those type of folks never want to acknowledge God. Could it be because they want to BE God? Hmmm....

From your keyboard to God's ears Jeri.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Some denominations believe that you should pray for the dead.
Catholics aren't one of them. Most churches believe that this is the only chance we have to either accept or reject the gift of eternal life with our Father.
The Bible description of the White Throne Judgement makes no provision for anyone being found innocent of the charges against them. If there are souls found innocent, they are not mentioned.
Does praying for those souls make a difference?

 

[AVG-JOE]

"Sociopath" is only a word that describes a human being who has a schism between himself and a lack of sympathy for other people. I don't think a guy who created a thread on spiders could ever be a sociopath, AVG-JOE. After all, the black widow loves her mate to death.

Well, you know what I mean.

I know what you mean...

I said I was kind of a sociopath. I have the intellectual capacity to walk a mile in the moccasins of another Monkey, but I have to have a really good reason to do so.

 

[The Irish Ram]

What makes you think it's either the Catholics or the Protestants that are correct on the matter?

There is a space between our death and our resurrection. You can call this place purgatory if you choose. In this place there is a separation between the righteous and the wicked. The scriptures described this place as Paradise/Abraham's bosom, or prison/hell.

Before the death of Christ, there was a gulf between the areas. The righteous could not mingle with the wicked nor vice versa. Christ ripped down the gulf. He preached the Gospel of Deliverence to those who were once wicked in the time of Noah and the Flood. The Gospel was, is, and will be preached to the dead so that all those who had no opportunity to hear of Christ in the Flesh, will have a chance for Redemption.

The Lord will redeem all the dead who will come to Him. He has already paid the price for their Resurrection.

Can anyone point to anything in the BIBLE, (old Testment or NEW) that supports the NOTION of purgatory?

I can't.

So where does this THEORY come from?

Thomas Aquinas gave us the 4 part Hell. Abraham's Bosom, (Biblical) Hades, (biblical)
Limbo, and Purgatory. (non Biblical)

And Joe, I didn't mean to confuse you about works. There are two categories:

Our bad works (sin) that Christ died to remove:

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

No works of man can remove sin.
The Bible speaks of Lucifer as, "the Prince behind the Kings".
When Obama stood in front of the whole world and proclaimed that you can work your way into Heaven, I knew in an instant who the Prince was behind our King.

Our good works (sacrifices) for Christ's sake:

Psalm 62:12 and with you, Lord, is unfailing love"; and, "You reward everyone according to what they have done."

And to turzovka, and anyone else who thinks that you are headed to Purgatory to be tortured because Christ's attempt to remove your sin failed,
I love that you even have faith considering you believe torture by your Father is in your future. But this is your true fate:

Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins will I remember no more.

I hope you believe me when I say,
You can't out sin God's grace.

 

[Abishai100]

The Inferno (Dante)

I like using the epic poem about purgatory, "The Inferno" (Dante) to think about religious discussion regarding sin and ethics labyrinths. It's a useful 'poetic pictogram.'

"The Inferno" (Dante) describes man journeying through various realms, levels, and circles of hell and discovering the nature of anguish, repentance, spiritual limbo, and restoration.

We can use "The Inferno" (Dante) to discuss modern age dominions of daredevil behavior:

"A cunning airline stewardess was engaged in an elaborate East-West narcotics-smuggling operation. As she traveled across the two hemispheres of the globe, she established networks and met men along the way with whom she was engaged in various kinds of affairs. Some of these men themselves were seduced to make other kinds of sins on their own such as being unkind to their wives and families.

As the stewardess deepened her 'circle of vice,' society became spiritually marred despite the obvious transit achievement of airline ornamentation."

This simple vignette suggests that the philosophical idea of sin-networks presented in "The Inferno" (Dante) can help Catholics think of the spiritual concept of purgatory in terms of decision-making chain reactions.






Kiss of the Spider Woman film - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[ninja007]

Purgatory a Spiritual Bermuda Triangle