Zone1 No one "is" saved. Some are BEING saved or WILL be saved in the future

1miseryindex

1miseryindex

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No one "is" saved. Some are BEING saved or WILL be saved in the future
​
Even before I studied my Faith, a project that began many years ago and continues, it always sounded like fingernails on a chalkboard to hear someone ask: Are you saved?

Salvation is a process that ends in death, and not even then if the person ends up in Purgatory and 99% of us do, according to saints and (other) theologians. "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling" we are told in Philippians 2:12

There are many scriptures that say "will be saved." I will try to find them but you can find them as easily as I can.

Here's one from memory: "He who endures until the end WILL BE SAVED" (emphasis mine)

So we see that: Even enduring to the very end with Christ does not mean you ARE saved, but that some time in the future you will be. "Will be" is future - tense, not present-tense.

(another Purgatory affirming Scripture)
 
If our salvation is already predetermined before we die, what need then is there for the judgement of God after we are dead?


Romans 14:10
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.


John 5:22
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:


Revelation 20:12
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Alma 11:41-44
41 Therefore the wicked remain as though there had been no redemption made, except it be the loosing of the bands of death; for behold, the day cometh that all shall rise from the dead and stand before God, and be judged according to their works.
42 Now, there is a death which is called a temporal death; and the death of Christ shall loose the bands of this temporal death, that all shall be raised from this temporal death.
43 The spirit and the body shall be reunited again in its perfect form; both limb and joint shall be restored to its proper frame, even as we now are at this time; and we shall be brought to stand before God, knowing even as we know now, and have a bright recollection of all our guilt.
44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.
 
Jesus does a shoddy job when He saves someone?

No, PEOPLE do a shoddy (sinful) job --whether they've accepted Christ or not.

But hey... anything that attacks the Catholic Church
!
 
It has nothing to do with the power of Jesus (why people are still in need of "growth" before entering Heaven after death) Even while still on Earth, no one is as pure as he or she needs to be, not even close most of the time

It has EVERYTHING to do with how abysmally FALLEN human beings are.. AND

How HOLY and pure God (Heaven) is
 
1miseryindex said:
Argue with Christ, why don't you

:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
He has a point. Where in the Bible does it talk about the Catholic idea of Purgatory? From a teacher at a Catholic high school I taught at said Purgatory is where you go and be by yourself and work out all the problems you had in life with yourself. When you have done so, you get to leave and go to Paradise. But, where in the Bible does is teach this? What is known is for those in "spirit prison" there will be preachers there who will preach to those who need to hear and know of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Manonthestreet gave this verse "“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand” (John 10:27–28)." Yet, Peter denied Christ 3 times. So, to be His sheep, they have to get through life keeping their covenants they make with Christ at baptism. So, Protestants say they are saved when they believe set themselves up for a big disappointment if they deny the Holy Ghost. Salvation and Exaltation are a process towards the Judgment seat of God and the resurrection.
 
Straight up. We go straight up, unless Paul has been lying to us.
2 Corinth. 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
^ Just like the thief on the cross was. No purgatory for that sinner. How come? Because his sins were covered by the blood of Christ, once and for all.

Maybe if Jesus says it, you'll believe it:

John 5:24 Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life”
 
1miseryindex said:
​
There are many scriptures that say "will be saved." I will try to find them but you can find them as easily as I can.

Here's one from memory: "He who endures until the end WILL BE SAVED" (emphasis mine)

So we see that: Even enduring to the very end with Christ does not mean you ARE saved, but that some time in the future you will be. "Will be" is future - tense, not present-tense.

(another Purgatory affirming Scripture)
Click to expand...


I'm sorry but you are misapplying this verse. It is specifically talking about the Last Days, the tribulation, and in this particular passage, the word "saved" is meant in the physical sense (being saved from harm.) It's not talking about being "saved" in terms of redemption / forgiveness of sins.

For context, I'll post the previous several verses. I'm going to bold the part that shows that the word "saved" here is meant in the sense of being spared. The entire passage needs to be read, to see what it's about.

Signs of the End of the Age​


3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” 4 And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. 5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.


9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then many will fall away[a] and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:3-13​

__________


Salvation is not earned, it is a gift. And the moment we get "saved" we are saved forever. So, if we're talking about being "saved" in the sense of having our sins forever washed away, salvation is a one time thing.

However....we have to be careful with words, because the word "salvation" is often used to describe the overall process which includes more than just that first moment of "getting saved."

There are other events that occur, but they all go hand-in-hand. And once the first one has happened, the other events are guaranteed to happen. (There's a scripture that backs that up, I'll have to look it up if you don't believe me.)

When most people say "I'm saved" they are talking specifically about justification. Which happens instantly. Sanctification is what takes time, that can take many years. But everyone who is going through sanctification is already "saved" in the sense that their sins are forgiven forever.

I'm going to copy / paste an excerpt from a page on this topic at gotquestions. org that describes the overall process.

Here are some definitions:​
​
• Justification is “an act of God whereby He pronounces a sinner to be righteous because of that sinner’s faith in Christ.” We are justified, or declared righteous, at the moment of our salvation.​
​
• Sanctification is “the process by which Christians are set apart for God from the rest of the world, or the process by which Christians are made holy.” Progressive, or experiential, sanctification, as it is sometimes called, is the effect of obedience to the Word of God in one’s life. It is the same as growing in the Lord (2 Peter 3:18) or spiritual maturity.​
​
• Glorification is “God’s final removal of sin from the life of the saints so that they stand faultless before Him in glory in eternity” (Romans 8:18; 2 Corinthians 4:17). At Christ’s coming, the glory of God (Romans 5:2)—His honor, praise, majesty, and holiness—will be realized in us; we will have direct and unhindered access to God’s presence, and we will enjoy holy communion with Him throughout eternity.​
​
As mentioned above, these three words describe the full process of salvation. As Christians, we were justified when we confessed Christ and believed (Romans 10:9), we are sanctified as we grow in holiness through the work of the Spirit (Ephesians 4:11–32; Galatians 5:16–24), and we will someday be glorified when we are resurrected into eternal life (Colossians 3:4). Justification is a one-time event, sanctification is a process, and glorification is a future event.​
​

So, in response to your point in the OP....it depends on what you mean by salvation. If you're saying that we have to work and earn our salvation and that takes a lifetime, and at any point we can lose it, then that is absolutely false and you are misleading people.

But if you're talking about "salvation" in the sense of the overall process that occurs starting from the moment one becomes born again until we get to heaven.... then yes, it's true that a series of events occur, but they go hand-in-hand and the later events are guaranteed to happen. So that's why people just say "I'm saved" once their sins have been forgiven at the moment of spiritual birth..... because just like with physical birth, you can't go from being born to unborn. Once you're born again as a child of God, you have eternal life, and nothing will ever snatch you away (John 10:28.)

As for "purgatory" that is flatly false, unbiblical.
 
Last edited:
1miseryindex said:
No one "is" saved. Some are BEING saved or WILL be saved in the future
​
Even before I studied my Faith, a project that began many years ago and continues, it always sounded like fingernails on a chalkboard to hear someone ask: Are you saved?

Salvation is a process that ends in death, and not even then if the person ends up in Purgatory and 99% of us do, according to saints and (other) theologians. "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling" we are told in Philippians 2:12

There are many scriptures that say "will be saved." I will try to find them but you can find them as easily as I can.

Here's one from memory: "He who endures until the end WILL BE SAVED" (emphasis mine)

So we see that: Even enduring to the very end with Christ does not mean you ARE saved, but that some time in the future you will be. "Will be" is future - tense, not present-tense.

(another Purgatory affirming Scripture)
Click to expand...
sanctification is a process, not salvation.
 
buttercup said:
I'm sorry but you are misapplying this verse. It is specifically talking about the Last Days, the tribulation, and in this particular passage, the word "saved" is meant in the physical sense (being saved from harm.) It's not talking about being "saved" in terms of redemption / forgiveness of sins.

For context, I'll post the previous several verses. I'm going to bold the part that shows that the word "saved" here is meant in the sense of being spared. The entire passage needs to be read, to see what it's about.

​

Signs of the End of the Age​


​
3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” 4 And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. 5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.​
​
​
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then many will fall away[a] and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.​
​
Matthew 24:3-13​

__________


Salvation is not earned, it is a gift. And the moment we get "saved" we are saved forever. So, if we're talking about being "saved" in the sense of having our sins forever washed away, salvation is a one time thing.

However....we have to be careful with words, because the word "salvation" is often used to describe the overall process which includes more than just that first moment of "getting saved."

There are other events that occur, but they all go hand-in-hand. And once the first one has happened, the other events are guaranteed to happen. (There's a scripture that backs that up, I'll have to look it up if you don't believe me.)

When most people say "I'm saved" they are talking specifically about justification. Which happens instantly. Sanctification is what takes time, that can take many years. But everyone who is going through sanctification is already "saved" in the sense that their sins are forgiven forever.

I'm going to copy / paste an excerpt from a page on this topic at gotquestions. org that describes the overall process.

Here are some definitions:​
​
• Justification is “an act of God whereby He pronounces a sinner to be righteous because of that sinner’s faith in Christ.” We are justified, or declared righteous, at the moment of our salvation.​
​
• Sanctification is “the process by which Christians are set apart for God from the rest of the world, or the process by which Christians are made holy.” Progressive, or experiential, sanctification, as it is sometimes called, is the effect of obedience to the Word of God in one’s life. It is the same as growing in the Lord (2 Peter 3:18) or spiritual maturity.​
​
• Glorification is “God’s final removal of sin from the life of the saints so that they stand faultless before Him in glory in eternity” (Romans 8:18; 2 Corinthians 4:17). At Christ’s coming, the glory of God (Romans 5:2)—His honor, praise, majesty, and holiness—will be realized in us; we will have direct and unhindered access to God’s presence, and we will enjoy holy communion with Him throughout eternity.​
​
As mentioned above, these three words describe the full process of salvation. As Christians, we were justified when we confessed Christ and believed (Romans 10:9), we are sanctified as we grow in holiness through the work of the Spirit (Ephesians 4:11–32; Galatians 5:16–24), and we will someday be glorified when we are resurrected into eternal life (Colossians 3:4). Justification is a one-time event, sanctification is a process, and glorification is a future event.​
​

So, in response to your point in the OP....it depends on what you mean by salvation. If you're saying that we have to work and earn our salvation and that takes a lifetime, and at any point we can lose it, then that is absolutely false and you are misleading people.

But if you're talking about "salvation" in the sense of the overall process that occurs starting from the moment one becomes born again until we get to heaven.... then yes, it's true that a series of events occur, but they go hand-in-hand and the later events are guaranteed to happen. So that's why people just say "I'm saved" once their sins have been forgiven at the moment of spiritual birth..... because just like with physical birth, you can't go from being born to unborn. Once you're born again as a child of God, you have eternal life, and nothing will ever snatch you away (John 10:28.)

As for "purgatory" that is flatly false, unbiblical.
Click to expand...
she doesnt have the Spirit, thus cannot understand scripture.
 
buttercup said:
I'm sorry but you are misapplying this verse. It is specifically talking about the Last Days, the tribulation,
Click to expand...

Wow, this is incredibly hypocritical.

You are accusing Me of misapplying a verse and yet nowhere in that psg does it mention the Last Days.. unless I have forgotten

OK, I will look up that psg and make sure I am correct on this.
 
buttercup said:
I'm sorry but you are misapplying this verse. It is specifically talking about the Last Days, the tribulation,
Click to expand...
OK, I found this site which addresses this "endures to the end" thing

and nowhere does Jesus say this applies to End times... (by the way this site is not Catholic that I know of)

www.gotquestions.org

What does it mean that he who endures to the end will be saved (Matthew 24:13)? | GotQuestions.org

What does it mean that he who endures to the end will be saved (Matthew 24:13)? If we are saved by faith alone, why do we have to endure to the end to be saved?
www.gotquestions.org
 
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