Zone1 Is Hell painful? How can God allow eternal pain?

[TruthNotBS]

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the Lake of Fire is anything but eternal:

it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.

These will go away into eternal punishment

“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels

My wrath will go forth like fire
And burn with none to quench it,
Because of the evil of your deeds.”

‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

As far as our immortality:

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life”

So that we don't produce an understanding on a word in a verse, the main theme of the Bible is an eternity with God. It is covered and described everywhere throughout. Forever, for eternity, eternal life, crossed over from death to life, everlasting, immortal. imperishable. incorruptible, infinite, indefinitely...

If you are correct, and all of those examples mean an eon, then after an "age", God also dies, because He is also described as eternal and forever in the Bible.

The term you use is a science term we use here on earth. On earth we have linear time. God's watch is set on eternal time.
So answer this, if God made the angels eternal, would He not make His children eternal also? Our life here is described as merely a vapor in God's time. Not even a second of eternal time would have past and we would been here and gone. What sense would that make from God's viewpoint?
We are made in the image of our Father. We are eternal beings.

The first quotes are disconnected, without chapter or verse references. There Yeshua is either referring to the destruction of the wicked, which has an eternal outcome, or the punishment which lasts an aeon. In the end all things will be reconciled to YHWH and chaos/Satan, will be defeated. Disorder will be replaced with Divine Order.

Your version of the final state of humanity is one where 99.9% of YHWH's human creation is kept alive by YHWH in a state of eternal torment, because they didn't convert to the correct brand of Christianity or managed to believe in the Messiah. That's not good news, that's horrible news. Only people with dead hearts can enjoy heaven while their parents and children are being tortured. This version of YHWH's justice is a slander to His character.

 

[onefour1]

Doctrine and Covenants 19:6-12
6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.
8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.
9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.
10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—
11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.
12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Doctrine and Covenants 19:6-12
6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.
8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.
9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.
10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—
11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.
12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

I don't agree with Joseph Smith on this issue. From the perspective of the God of Israel, YHWH, the wicked are destroyed. They lack life, and perish. Their names are forgotten and they essentially just cease to be. Life is for the righteous, those who seek YHWH with all of their hearts and keep His commandments. That's the simple faith of Israel. Yeshua, our Messiah, secures a resurrection for everyone, so that they may have their day in court. The wicked will experience the second death, which is death without recourse and the righteous will be granted access to the tree of life. They will be under the authority of Messiah and His bride (The members of His royal family/Messiah's disciples).

The Messiah's disciples in this life, are essentially governors in training, they get a taste of immortality, the Kingdom of YHWH through the baptism of the Holy Spirit. They are quickened to eternal life and service. That's the great benefit of being a disciple of Yeshua Ha'Mashiach, the Messiah. You are a member of His royal family and will reign with Him, over the nations. Planets, whole solar systems, and regions of the galaxy will be given to you, to govern as a divine principality and bearer of The Name of YHWH.

 

[The Irish Ram]

CM, The verses are disconnected because I don't want a post 2 pages long. The point being the different words used to describe the same thing, which is how you distinguish one meaning from another. Aeon is used in the Bible to express a time or age. Eternal is used in the Bible to describe something that is endless. Not only is the Lake of Fire described as for ever, but also, so we don't confuse it with for a time, it is described as eternal and never ending. Our life in Heaven is not described as for a time, or for an age, but eternal,everlasting, and without end, for ever.

How does Jesus destroy the wicked? In the eternal Lake of Fire. They don't escape, they are not reconciled at some later date. That simply isn't to be found in the Bible.

How does God destroy Satan? Satan is immortal, so are the fallen angels, so how does Jesus "defeat" Satan? And is it only for a time? Is he also let out of the Lake of Fire and reconciled with God?

 

[The Irish Ram]

From the perspective of the God of Israel, YHWH, the wicked are destroyed. They lack life, and perish. Their names are forgotten and they essentially just cease to be.

And the rich man in hell? Why didn't he just cease to be? Why didn't he just perish?

Messiah, secures a resurrection for everyone, so that they may have their day in court

What day in court are you referring to? Why would we be in court? Are we, who are covered by the blood of the Lamb, being charged with something?

Romans 8:1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

 

[The Irish Ram]

The wicked will experience the second death, which is death without recourse

So, do they perish and just cease to exist? Is that what you call the second death?
Because, here is what the Bible calls the second death:

Rev. 20:14 The lake of fire is the second death.

Which is it?

 

[TruthNotBS]

So, do they perish and just cease to exist? Is that what you call the second death?
Because, here is what the Bible calls the second death:

Rev. 20:14 The lake of fire is the second death.

Which is it?

The Lake of Fire can be another way of saying "destruction". The wicked are annihilated in the lake of fire.

 

[TruthNotBS]

And the rich man in hell? Why didn't he just cease to be? Why didn't he just perish?


What day in court are you referring to? Why would we be in court? Are we, who are covered by the blood of the Lamb, being charged with something?

I interpret that as a metaphorical story not a true story of a rich man in an eternal hell. Even if it is true, there's nothing in that story that states he will be in that state eternally, forever. It might be more like a purgatory, rather than a place where YHWH keeps people in a state of torment eternally.

The actual disciples of Yeshua are born again or more accurately "born above" and they don't go through the same process of redemption as those who aren't disciples. Nonetheless, the good news is that everyone will be raised from the dead. When one suffers in this world and dies, that's not enough to secure eternal life or a resurrection that leads to access to the tree of life in YHWH's Kingdom. People suffer and die, expiating or paying for the sin that they've committed, but there's no power or authority there to raise them from the dead. Suffering and paying for your own sinful thoughts and behavior doesn't lead to eternal life without Yeshua Ha'Mashiach.

The Messiah secured resurrection from the dead for all mankind and that's the good news of the gospel. Everyone will have their day in court or will be judged according to their works, except those who lived in this life for the Messiah. A genuine, faithful, and fruitful disciple of Messiah, who lays down his life, carrying his cross daily in loving service to His Savior and Lord, doesn't have to go through the same painful process of redemption as non-disciples. They are truly and uniquely saved.

 

[The Irish Ram]

It's 3am, and I have to go to bed. But this has been some good dialog, and hope to continue tomorrow. You raise some good points, like how can one be happy in Heaven is they have a loved one in hell.
Later

 

[TruthNotBS]

It's 3am, and I have to go to bed. But this has been some good dialog, and hope to continue tomorrow. You raise some good points, like how can one be happy in Heaven is they have a loved one in hell.
Later

We can talk later.

 

[1miseryindex]

I don't agree with Joseph Smith on this issue. From the perspective of the God of Israel, YHWH, the wicked are destroyed. They lack life, and perish.

not so. Jesus spoke of eternal PUNISHMENT.

A person completely annihilated (like a body cremated) cannot be punished

 

[1miseryindex]

I won the argument, look:

Genesis 5:12

• Exodus 3:14
• Leviticus 19:18
• Numbers 6:24-26
• Deuteronomy 6:5
• Joshua 1:9
• Judges 16:28
• Ruth 1:16
• 1 Samuel 17:45
• 2 Samuel 22:33
• 1 Kings 3:12
• 2 Kings 2:9
• 1 Chronicles 16:11
• 2 Chronicles 7:14
• Ezra 10:11
• Nehemiah 8:10
• Esther 4:14
• Job 19:25
• Psalms 23:1
• Proverbs 3:5-6
• Ecclesiastes 12:13
• Song of Solomon 8:6
• Isaiah 40:31
• Jeremiah 29:11
• Lamentations 3:22-23
• Ezekiel 36:26
• Daniel 12:3
• Hosea 6:6
• Joel 2:28
• Amos 5:24
• Obadiah 1:15
• Jonah 2:9
• Micah 6:8
• Nahum 1:7
• Habakkuk 2:14
• Zephaniah 3:17
• Haggai 2:9
• Zechariah 4:6
• Malachi 3:10
• Matthew 5:14
• Mark 12:30
• Luke 6:31
• John 3:16
• Acts 2:38
• Romans 12:2
• 1 Corinthians 13:4
• 2 Corinthians 5:17
• Galatians 5:22-23
• Ephesians 2:8
• Philippians 4:13

WOW! Look at that! Open your Bible, start going through all of my "proof-texts" because I'm to darn lazy to quote the actual texts in my posts.

Please

The devil quotes Scripture also, when it serves his purpose..

and what a hypocrite you are anyhow...

You act like if I don't do your research for you (quote a psg in full) I cannot be an apologist

Yet here you are quoting a bunch of scripture BOOK titles without quoting the entire passage!

 

[onefour1]

1 Corinthians 15:21-22,26,53-55
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

The Apostle Paul taught that in Adam all will die but in Christ all will be made alive. By man came death and by man came also the resurrection of the dead. When we resurrect this corruptible must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality. Being immortal means that you can never die again. We all will be reunited with a body of flesh and bones to never die again. Immortality is assured to all of us through Jesus Christ our Lord! Thus we will all live forever and ever and never be destroyed or die. Death is swallowed up in victory!

Immortality is not the same as eternal life. Eternal life is not only having immortality but also having a life like God. Eternal life is being saved into the kingdom of heaven where God dwells.

Eternal Life​

• See also Atone, Atonement; Celestial Glory; Crown; Exaltation; Life

To live forever as families in God’s presence (D&C 132:19–20, 24, 55). Eternal life is God’s greatest gift to man.

• Thou hast the words of eternal life, John 6:68.
• This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, John 17:3 (D&C 132:24).
• Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, 1 Tim. 6:12.
• People are free to choose liberty and eternal life, 2 Ne. 2:27 (Hel. 14:31).
• To be spiritually minded is life eternal, 2 Ne. 9:39.
• Then are ye in the narrow path that leads to eternal life, 2 Ne. 31:17–20.
• To believe in Christ and endure to the end is life eternal, 2 Ne. 33:4 (3 Ne. 15:9).
• He that hath eternal life is rich, D&C 6:7 (D&C 11:7).
• Eternal life is the greatest of all the gifts of God, D&C 14:7 (Rom. 6:23).
• The righteous will receive peace in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, D&C 59:23.
• Those who endure to the end shall have a crown of eternal life, D&C 66:12 (D&C 75:5).
• All who die without the gospel who would have received it had they lived are heirs of the celestial kingdom, D&C 137:7–9.
• God’s work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, Moses 1:39.
• God gives eternal life to the obedient, Moses 5:11.

This mortal death is the first death. The second death comes upon those who reject God completely and commit the sin against the Holy Ghost and are the sons (and daughters) of Perdition. They are those who will abide in a kingdom of glory but are cast into outer darkness. They are they who will receive no forgiveness in this world nor the world to come. The second death is likened unto a lake of fire and brimstone. The second death is a spiritual death. They will have immortality but will not live in a kingdom of glory.

Death, Spiritual, Second​

• See also Hell; Sin; Sons of Perdition
• awake … some to shame and everlasting contempt, Dan. 12:2.
• Fear him, which … hath power to cast into hell, Luke 12:5.
• If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death, John 8:51.
• none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, John 17:12.
• lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition, 1 Tim. 6:9.
• we are not of them who draw back unto perdition, Heb. 10:39.
• reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition, 2 Pet. 3:7.
• He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death, Rev. 2:11.
• beast … shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition, Rev. 17:8.
• on such the second death hath no power, Rev. 20:6.
• This is the second death, Rev. 20:14.
• lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death, Rev. 21:8 (Jacob 3:11; D&C 63:17–18).
• second death, which is a spiritual death, Alma 12:16.
• second death, which was an everlasting death, Alma 12:32.
• repentance … that ye may not suffer the second death, Alma 13:30.
• spiritual death, yea, a second death, Hel. 14:18.
• which is the last death, which is spiritual, D&C 29:41.
• cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, D&C 29:44.
• only ones on whom the second death shall have any power, D&C 76:37.
• wide the way that leadeth to the deaths, D&C 132:25.
• not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, D&C 132:27.

Regarding what becomes of mankind after the judgement of mankind, Joseph Smith received the following revelation regarding mankind's outcome.

Doctrine and Covenants 76