The Biggest Lie wasn't "Like your doctor, keep your doctor".

[MarathonMike]

The biggest lie was the ACA bill itself. Naming and promoting the bill as the "Affordable Care Act" was a deliberate and disgusting lie pushed by Obama and his minions. All the other lies i.e. "$2500/year savings", "like your doctor, keep your doctor" were the lies Obama needed to tell to keep the big lie moving forward. And he had no problem lying to the American people over and over and over. That is what Socialists do.The goal was obviously two fold:

First and Foremost, Obama wanted to be the President that pushed through the Holy Grail of Socialism, 'Government Controlled Healthcare'. It gives government the mechanisms to invade virtually every aspect of American life through taxes, penalties, expansions of the law, etc.

Second, it extended coverage to the poorest in America but it did so at astronomical cost, clearly a contradiction of the intent of the bill. For God's sakes, the freakin WEBSITE healthcare.gov is going to cost us one hundred times original estimates, over a billion dollars!

The side effects of the ACA are only beginning to unfold and they are all bad. This is the lie upon which Obama's legacy will be defined. History will not be kind.

 

[Arianrhod]

^Any data to back your opinion?

 

[william the wie]

Adverse selection is the big problem. Sicker and poorer people using the exchanges with MS being the worst case, companies outside the exchanges having the problem that the wealthier either use group healthcare or migrate to where costs are minimal for a platinum plan and a growing problem with ever harder to get admission to top-quality medical centers.

 

[Oldstyle]

^Any data to back your opinion?

You want "data" to back up an opinion that the ACA DIDN'T save the average Middle Class family an average of $2,500 a year as promised by Barack Obama?

Do you seriously not know that the ACA has raised healthcare costs for the average Middle Class family? That was a deliberate falsehood told by progressives.

 

[Arianrhod]

^Any data to back your opinion?

You want "data" to back up an opinion that the ACA DIDN'T save the average Middle Class family an average of $2,500 a year as promised by Barack Obama?

Do you seriously not know that the ACA has raised healthcare costs for the average Middle Class family? That was a deliberate falsehood told by progressives.

There are plenty of data in this forum showing that millions more Americans have access to affordable health insurance than did before.

There are plenty of polls indicating satisfaction with the PPACA.

All y'all seem to have is "HE LIED!!!!11"

 

[william the wie]

^Any data to back your opinion?

You want "data" to back up an opinion that the ACA DIDN'T save the average Middle Class family an average of $2,500 a year as promised by Barack Obama?

Do you seriously not know that the ACA has raised healthcare costs for the average Middle Class family? That was a deliberate falsehood told by progressives.

With the amount of money being lost by insurance companies currently and housing getting above water in CA fairly massive migration is likely to be seen just prior to the general election. Because of registration problems it will not have much immediate effect but the loss of tax base in blue states will have huge effects on the mid-terms. At that point ACA reform will be possible and that could lead to a $2,500 year savings for the average family.

 

[MarathonMike]

I'm not connecting the loss of tax base in blue states and subsequent ACA reform leading to the possibility of 2500/year healthcare savings per family. Can you elaborate?

 

[Greenbeard]

Second, it extended coverage to the poorest in America but it did so at astronomical cost, clearly a contradiction of the intent of the bill. For God's sakes, the freakin WEBSITE healthcare.gov is going to cost us one hundred times original estimates, over a billion dollars!

What?

Coverage through the exchanges in FY14 was supposed to cost ~20 billion. It cost $14 billion. Medicaid was supposed to be costing $331 billion. It was actually $310 billion. Medicare was supposed to cost $652 billion (post-reform). It was actually $600 billion.

All the costs have been lower than advertised.

 

[Oldstyle]

^Any data to back your opinion?

You want "data" to back up an opinion that the ACA DIDN'T save the average Middle Class family an average of $2,500 a year as promised by Barack Obama?

Do you seriously not know that the ACA has raised healthcare costs for the average Middle Class family? That was a deliberate falsehood told by progressives.

There are plenty of data in this forum showing that millions more Americans have access to affordable health insurance than did before.

There are plenty of polls indicating satisfaction with the PPACA.

All y'all seem to have is "HE LIED!!!!11"

Nobody is contending that more Americans don't have access to affordable healthcare, Arian! What we're pointing out is that the COST of that healthcare is now being borne in large part by Middle Class Americans! The ACA was never about lowering healthcare costs...which was what the majority of Americans wanted...it was about subsidizing healthcare costs for the poor. Progressives in Congress and in the Obama White House lied to the Middle Class because they didn't want them to know that their healthcare costs would by necessity have to go up to cover the millions of poor people subsidized care.

As for who is "satisfied" with ObamaCare? Those getting large subsidies LOVE it! Those having to pay for those subsidies don't feel the same!

 

[Oldstyle]

^Any data to back your opinion?

You want "data" to back up an opinion that the ACA DIDN'T save the average Middle Class family an average of $2,500 a year as promised by Barack Obama?

Do you seriously not know that the ACA has raised healthcare costs for the average Middle Class family? That was a deliberate falsehood told by progressives.

With the amount of money being lost by insurance companies currently and housing getting above water in CA fairly massive migration is likely to be seen just prior to the general election. Because of registration problems it will not have much immediate effect but the loss of tax base in blue states will have huge effects on the mid-terms. At that point ACA reform will be possible and that could lead to a $2,500 year savings for the average family.

I have no idea what you're saying here, William. Did that make sense to you as you were writing it?

 

[william the wie]

^Any data to back your opinion?

You want "data" to back up an opinion that the ACA DIDN'T save the average Middle Class family an average of $2,500 a year as promised by Barack Obama?

Do you seriously not know that the ACA has raised healthcare costs for the average Middle Class family? That was a deliberate falsehood told by progressives.

With the amount of money being lost by insurance companies currently and housing getting above water in CA fairly massive migration is likely to be seen just prior to the general election. Because of registration problems it will not have much immediate effect but the loss of tax base in blue states will have huge effects on the mid-terms. At that point ACA reform will be possible and that could lead to a $2,500 year savings for the average family.

I have no idea what you're saying here, William. Did that make sense to you as you were writing it?

As the poor migrate to where there are on exchange carriers and the rich to where there are not, something that is happening now, current migration patterns are being amplified. Relative tax base loss and increasing net tax consumers in the blue states will reduce the viability of the blue state model. What makes this more predictable is:

United Health Care and the Co-ops should be leaving the ACA exchanges shortly before the elections

As a lame duck Obama has little to use to threaten those companies that leave the exchanges.

The 2017-8 exchange exits will be even bigger.

The loss of tax base will keep amplifying each year prior to the midterms.

 

[Greenbeard]

As the poor migrate to where there are on exchange carriers and the rich to where there are not, something that is happening now, current migration patterns are being amplified.

Are you out of your mind? This is the individual market exchanges you're talking about. This is like 10 million people. If we're very lucky it'll be 12-15 million this year.

Out of 310+ million Americans.

 

[william the wie]

And the higher premiums mean that fewer people can afford to sign up.

 

[Greenbeard]

And the higher premiums mean that fewer people can afford to sign up.

The premiums are lower than what the CBO used to project 2016 enrollment. But back to the point: you're suggesting the exchanges are causing some mass migration that's going to affect the tax base of various states?

To which I have to ask again: are you out of your mind?

 

[Oldstyle]

^Any data to back your opinion?

You want "data" to back up an opinion that the ACA DIDN'T save the average Middle Class family an average of $2,500 a year as promised by Barack Obama?

Do you seriously not know that the ACA has raised healthcare costs for the average Middle Class family? That was a deliberate falsehood told by progressives.

With the amount of money being lost by insurance companies currently and housing getting above water in CA fairly massive migration is likely to be seen just prior to the general election. Because of registration problems it will not have much immediate effect but the loss of tax base in blue states will have huge effects on the mid-terms. At that point ACA reform will be possible and that could lead to a $2,500 year savings for the average family.

I have no idea what you're saying here, William. Did that make sense to you as you were writing it?

As the poor migrate to where there are on exchange carriers and the rich to where there are not, something that is happening now, current migration patterns are being amplified. Relative tax base loss and increasing net tax consumers in the blue states will reduce the viability of the blue state model. What makes this more predictable is:

United Health Care and the Co-ops should be leaving the ACA exchanges shortly before the elections

As a lame duck Obama has little to use to threaten those companies that leave the exchanges.

The 2017-8 exchange exits will be even bigger.

The loss of tax base will keep amplifying each year prior to the midterms.

What "migration" do you see taking place because of the ACA? Quite frankly I don't know where you've gotten this notion because I'm not seeing anything like that.

 

[Oldstyle]

And the higher premiums mean that fewer people can afford to sign up.

The premiums are lower than what the CBO used to project 2016 enrollment. But back to the point: you're suggesting the exchanges are causing some mass migration that's going to affect the tax base of various states?

To which I have to ask again: are you out of your mind?

I'm curious, Greenbeard...do you honestly think that premiums for healthcare insurance are going to go down for the Middle Class? I'm seeing people without subsidies having to sign up for plans with higher deductibles and less care in order to be able to afford the higher rates that insurance companies are now starting to hit them with.

 

[Greenbeard]

I'm curious, Greenbeard...do you honestly think that premiums for healthcare insurance are going to go down for the Middle Class? I'm seeing people without subsidies having to sign up for plans with higher deductibles and less care in order to be able to afford the higher rates that insurance companies are now starting to hit them with.

Premiums are almost certainly never going to do down. Unless wages in the health sector (in which a lot of people are employed) go down first, or a lot of people in that sector get abruptly laid off.

The goal long term has to be to slow cost growth, get overall spending and premium growth in line with, and perhaps ultimately below, economic and wage growth.

There are two approaches to achieving that, perhaps incoherently, being tried at the same time. One promotes a more cohesive health care delivery system that eliminates much of the waste and duplication that has plagued the system for decades. The other promotes a market approach--which, yes, involves higher deductibles--to persuade people to be price sensitive in choosing services. I honestly don't know which approach is better, but they're both happening right now.

 

[OnePercenter]

With the amount of money being lost by insurance companies currently and housing getting above water in CA fairly massive migration is likely to be seen just prior to the general election. Because of registration problems it will not have much immediate effect but the loss of tax base in blue states will have huge effects on the mid-terms. At that point ACA reform will be possible and that could lead to a $2,500 year savings for the average family.

Being lost by insurance companies because they have to use the majority of premiums collected on claims?

 

[william the wie]

It depends on where you live how much of it you see. Here in Jax beach three houses purchased, demolished and rebuilt larger within one block of my house in the past year.

 

[william the wie]

With the amount of money being lost by insurance companies currently and housing getting above water in CA fairly massive migration is likely to be seen just prior to the general election. Because of registration problems it will not have much immediate effect but the loss of tax base in blue states will have huge effects on the mid-terms. At that point ACA reform will be possible and that could lead to a $2,500 year savings for the average family.

Being lost by insurance companies because they have to use the majority of premiums collected on claims?

Adverse selection is the main problem, but care givers refusing to take new Medicare/Medicaid patients is a very close second. Basically the ACA is increasing bankruptcy rates among the poor.