The Bible's archaic, arbitrary code of ethics is ineffective in the real world.

[sealybobo]

Greek Orthodox. And I used to think ours was better/different but I'm seeing negative similarities. My church has gone right wing. Which is good. It further confirms my sdisbelief.

But I've studied them all. Presbyterian Lutheran baptist born agains etc

Ah, OK. That's kind of what I suspected. Makes perfect sense now why you left faith.

Please just know that there's a difference between religion and God.

I bet discussing the hypothesis that a god must have created the universe was a fun discussion before the first religion was invented. Before the first person like Joseph smith said god talked to him. Who was that? Oh yea Moses.

What sect of Christianity is the right one? Which one would you have been shocked to hear I was once a member?

 

[sealybobo]

If religion is made up what makes you think gods not?

I didn't say "religion is made up." But obviously there are many false religions, ranging from completely false, to partially false, etc.

All I was saying is that religion and God are not the same thing. I want to elaborate, but I'm actually just about to start dinner, but I will try to get back to this thread later.

I'm sensing a born again. Non denomination

 

[buttercup]

Dude. YOU follow a religion. Allow me to demonstrate. Do you:

1. worship a god that cannot be detected by scientific methods?
2. have a holy book in which your god tells you how to live?
3. have an after-life where you will be judged according to your beliefs, actions and life choices?
4. Believe that by being born into this world you were somehow infected with a disease called "sin", and that only your particular god is able to rescue you from this mortal condition?
5. reject all other gods as being false, with only your god being worthy of worship and adoration?
6. pray to your god?
   
7. believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was your god who created the entire universe?
8. have faith that your particular holy book is the only one in which the written accounts can be trusted completely, and contains the will of your god?
9. attend regular gatherings arranged and led by experts of your particular belief system?
10. think it's possible to know exactly what your god's purpose is for your life, even though you cannot prove he exists?
11. value having a "strong faith" above what can be learned from science and empirical observation and utilising logic and reason? (Before you insist "no" to this one, I will direct your attention back to "Jesus LITERALLY rose from the dead", then apply that to what science, empirical observation, logic, and reason have to say about the probability of that being possible, and then answer this question.)

If you answered yes to the majority of these questions, I hate to break it to you, Sparky, but you follow a religion.

I never claimed that Christianity is not a religion. You really do have a pattern of putting words in people's mouths or misunderstanding what people are saying. It makes it difficult to have a discussion with you.

 

[BETH-MIDAN]

Oh its competition for something, that's why its so angsty and shrill and hysterical .

 

[sealybobo]

If religion is made up what makes you think gods not?

I didn't say "religion is made up." But obviously there are many false religions, ranging from completely false, to partially false, etc.

All I was saying is that religion and God are not the same thing. I want to elaborate, but I'm actually just about to start dinner, but I will try to get back to this thread later.

We are all atheists. You just believe in one more god than I do. You understand all the other religions aren't real except yours. How lucky you were born on this side of the world

 

[BETH-MIDAN]

Dude. YOU follow a religion. Allow me to demonstrate. Do you:

1. worship a god that cannot be detected by scientific methods?
2. have a holy book in which your god tells you how to live?
3. have an after-life where you will be judged according to your beliefs, actions and life choices?
4. Believe that by being born into this world you were somehow infected with a disease called "sin", and that only your particular god is able to rescue you from this mortal condition?
5. reject all other gods as being false, with only your god being worthy of worship and adoration?
6. pray to your god?
   
7. believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was your god who created the entire universe?
8. have faith that your particular holy book is the only one in which the written accounts can be trusted completely, and contains the will of your god?
9. attend regular gatherings arranged and led by experts of your particular belief system?
10. think it's possible to know exactly what your god's purpose is for your life, even though you cannot prove he exists?
11. value having a "strong faith" above what can be learned from science and empirical observation and utilising logic and reason? (Before you insist "no" to this one, I will direct your attention back to "Jesus LITERALLY rose from the dead", then apply that to what science, empirical observation, logic, and reason have to say about the probability of that being possible, and then answer this question.)

If you answered yes to the majority of these questions, I hate to break it to you, Sparky, but you follow a religion.

I never claimed that Christianity is not a religion. You really do have a pattern of putting words in people's mouth's or misunderstanding what people are saying. It makes it difficult to have a discussion with you.

He's already arguing original sin, etc ...
like talking down a cutter.

 

[BETH-MIDAN]

If religion is made up what makes you think gods not?

I didn't say "religion is made up." But obviously there are many false religions, ranging from completely false, to partially false, etc.

All I was saying is that religion and God are not the same thing. I want to elaborate, but I'm actually just about to start dinner, but I will try to get back to this thread later.

We are all atheists. You just believe in one more god than I do. You understand all the other religions aren't real except yours. How lucky you were born on this side of the world

You're operating off of stereotype ...

 

[sealybobo]

If religion is made up what makes you think gods not?

I didn't say "religion is made up." But obviously there are many false religions, ranging from completely false, to partially false, etc.

All I was saying is that religion and God are not the same thing. I want to elaborate, but I'm actually just about to start dinner, but I will try to get back to this thread later.

We are all atheists. You just believe in one more god than I do. You understand all the other religions aren't real except yours. How lucky you were born on this side of the world

You're operating off of stereotype ...

You've only been here since may. I've been debating this since the 1900s. Feel free to enlighten me

 

[BETH-MIDAN]

If religion is made up what makes you think gods not?

I didn't say "religion is made up." But obviously there are many false religions, ranging from completely false, to partially false, etc.

All I was saying is that religion and God are not the same thing. I want to elaborate, but I'm actually just about to start dinner, but I will try to get back to this thread later.

We are all atheists. You just believe in one more god than I do. You understand all the other religions aren't real except yours. How lucky you were born on this side of the world

You're operating off of stereotype ...

You've only been here since may. I've been debating this since the 1900s. Feel free to enlighten me

Then read it again, that's a long time to be stuck, starting from before popular electricity and all, deep in the 20th century. Popular stereotyping won't help us get anywhere.

 

[Meriweather]

Christians are like snowflakes no two believe the same. That's because the Bible is so vague monks are still debating it

Love God, love your fellow man. That's a good start.

 

[sealybobo]

I have been challenged several times to demonstrate how Christianity harms society, presumably be cause the person challenging me thinks that it doesn't. So, this will be the first of numerous discussions demonstrating exactly how Christianity harms society. Now, I am certain that any of a number of theists, and apologists will be tempted to respond with, "Well, but atheism..." fill in the blank. Don't. Resist that temptation. I'm sure that whatever you are about to say about atheism is earth-shattering, profound, and brilliantly insightful. So, by all means, go open a discussion thread with that thought. In the meantime this discussion is about Christians, and their affect on society. Let's do stay on topic. Now, on with the show...

The Bible's archaic, arbitrary code of ethics is ineffective in the real world. Now, this is not to say that the bible does not have any good ideas - Do not murder, Do not steal, for example. However, when you consider all of the rules, and regulations in the Bible as a whole, you discover vagueness, contradictions, absurdities, immorality idolized and morality demonized. Now, I'm sure that there are going to be Christians who swear this isn't true. Allow me to illustrate. According to the rules, as written in Deuteronomy, if you go to war and take women captive, you can marry them after shaving their head and living with them for a month. But, once you have, can't sell them as slaves to anyone else. Who the fuck needs to even be told not to sell their wife a s a fucking slave?!?! The people who wrote the Bible, apparently. Also, according to Deuteronomy, if you have a disobedient son, you can take him to the middle of town, and everyone can have a rock throwing party. Now, Christians will say, "Oh! But we don't do that any more," No, but it makes the abuse that you do deliver seem mild by comparison. "Hey, all I do is beat my kid with a belt, at least I'm not stoning him like we used to do..."

According to 1st Corinthians, a woman should sit down, shut up, and submit to their husbands. Now, again, Christians will insist, "Why yes, a wife should be obedient to her husband," Uh...I won't touch that one. I'll let your own wives deal with you on that score. However, I will point out that the Bible didn't just say "be obedient," Nooo. I, specifically says submit The word "submit" actually means to give over or yield to the power or authority of another. You know who else is expected to "submit"? Servants and slaves. That's right. The Bible specifically relegates wives to the position of servants, and slaves. Oh! And speaking of slaves, the Bible specifically endorses slavery in both the Old, and the New Testament. And this from a people who wrote an entire book about their shitty time as a race of slaves!!! Wrap your head around that one. So, how about we dispense, Christians, with any protestations about the morality advocated in the Bible.

But it gets better! Compounding the problem, the determining factor of whether or not you're forgiven or punished for violating these vague, contradictory, absurd rules is whether or not you believe in a story. Again, Christians are going to say, "That's not how it works! You have to accept him as Lord and Saviour!" And how do we know that he is "Lord and Saviour"? Oh. That's right. That story. So, you have to believe in a story. Okay...okay. You have to believe in a story, and say the magic words demonstrating that you believe the story.

Here's why that's bad. Imagine if you were trying to control a class of 6 year old children and you gave them an arbitrary set of conflicting, vague rules and told them that the only way to escape punishment for breaking the rules is to believe in a story. What would happen? Chaos would break out.

Children raised their entire lives on vague, arbitrary rules reinforced by fantasy stories of magic, and mythology grow up into adults with a warped sense of reality. They often feel guilty for doing innocent, natural things, believe they deserve to go to Hell, believe in magical spirits and powers, distrust science, fear pleasure and celebrate subjugation of self. These are not the habits of an enlightened society. They're irrational, and they contradict reality. If you live your life according to beliefs that contradict reality you're going to have a bad time.

Also, some of those kids believing in archaic, haphazard rules are going to grow up to be politicians, and they are going to try to laws based on those beliefs, which will in turn be draconian, archaic, and haphazard.

You know what? I'm surprised these christians don't tell their fellow members about this site and they don't all join to come here to battle Satan and spread the word.

Religions die because times change and religions are set in stone. Christianity changes even branches off. Catholics were the first and original but born agains feel they have it right now. Soon gays will be ok, women will be popes and abortion won't be a sin. And non christians go to heaven too. Soon.

 

[BETH-MIDAN]

whole monks ...

 

[sealybobo]

Christians are like snowflakes no two believe the same. That's because the Bible is so vague monks are still debating it

Love God, love your fellow man. That's a good start.

I give thanks to whatever put us here. We just don't know what that is. No organized religion is telling facts. And I not only love my fellow man I love the environment and other animals.

 

[Meriweather]

Not true. I spent 30 years with an open mind believing in god. I stopped believing because I realized it's man made up....

While others continue to believe because of the realization God is.

 

[BETH-MIDAN]

Christians are like snowflakes no two believe the same. That's because the Bible is so vague monks are still debating it

Love God, love your fellow man. That's a good start.

I give thanks to whatever put us here. We just don't know what that is. No organized religion is telling facts. And I not only love my fellow man I love the environment and other animals.

We'll, if a baby is ever born out a transgendered colon, I'll abort it with you ...

Until then you're running off of the assumption that society itself as you know it is separable from the religion that founded its justice to begin with.

 

[sealybobo]

whole monks ...

How is your religion better or different or more right?

 

[buttercup]

We are all atheists. You just believe in one more god than I do. You understand all the other religions aren't real except yours. How lucky you were born on this side of the world

I didn't grow up in a Christian home. In fact, I was a nonbeliever for most of my life, so you are making a lot of assumptions. Christianity started in the Middle East, and there are Christians all over the world, so it's always strange to me when people label it a Western religion. Also, something that a lot of people aren't aware of is that there are millions of Christians (and growing fast) in the underground church in China, as well as very passionate Christians in other Asian countries, such as Korea, etc. In fact, at the rate the revival is going in Asian countries, they will surpass the number of Christians on the other side the world in a matter of time.

 

[Meriweather]

I give thanks to whatever put us here. We just don't know what that is. No organized religion is telling facts. And I not only love my fellow man I love the environment and other animals.

Organized religion can only take us so far. Theresa of Avila wrote of the seven levels of the Interior Castle; Thomas Merton wrote of the Seven Storey Mountain. If we are extremely lucky, religion gets us to about Level Two. The other five levels we're pretty much on our own.

 

[BETH-MIDAN]

whole monks ...

How is your religion better or different or more right?

It seems to be a winner. Some religions are stuck with animal idolatry and things, and there's already pokemon.

 

[Czernobog]

Dude. YOU follow a religion. Allow me to demonstrate. Do you:

1. worship a god that cannot be detected by scientific methods?
2. have a holy book in which your god tells you how to live?
3. have an after-life where you will be judged according to your beliefs, actions and life choices?
4. Believe that by being born into this world you were somehow infected with a disease called "sin", and that only your particular god is able to rescue you from this mortal condition?
5. reject all other gods as being false, with only your god being worthy of worship and adoration?
6. pray to your god?
   
7. believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was your god who created the entire universe?
8. have faith that your particular holy book is the only one in which the written accounts can be trusted completely, and contains the will of your god?
9. attend regular gatherings arranged and led by experts of your particular belief system?
10. think it's possible to know exactly what your god's purpose is for your life, even though you cannot prove he exists?
11. value having a "strong faith" above what can be learned from science and empirical observation and utilising logic and reason? (Before you insist "no" to this one, I will direct your attention back to "Jesus LITERALLY rose from the dead", then apply that to what science, empirical observation, logic, and reason have to say about the probability of that being possible, and then answer this question.)

If you answered yes to the majority of these questions, I hate to break it to you, Sparky, but you follow a religion.

I never claimed that Christianity is not a religion. You really do have a pattern of putting words in people's mouths or misunderstanding what people are saying. It makes it difficult to have a discussion with you.

Well...experience has taught me hat when someone makes a distinction like, "Ah.. That explains it. You had a religion, not God," They were attempting to make the "I have a personal relationship with God, not a religion" argument. That's when I demonstrate that Christians - all Christians - follow a religion.