The Bible's archaic, arbitrary code of ethics is ineffective in the real world.

[buttercup]

That is a flat out lie. Ephesians specifically tells women to submit to their husbands. Now, Christians insist, "But that went both ways," Except it doesn't. No where does the Bible tell Men to submit to their wives.

“Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God” (Ephesians 5:21)

Actually, all believers must submit to each other in the sense that we all are called to be selfless, humble, gentle, patient… with a servant's heart toward one another. That is part of marriage too, in fact it is the verse immediately before the one that you quoted.

You are trying really hard to paint God as a misogynistic tyrant, but all you're doing is displaying that you do not know God. Respectfully.

 

[Czernobog]

So, if there are no "bond" then why did he tell slaves to obey their masters in Ephesians?Why did he tell women to submit to their husbands? Clearly the writer recognised there are slaves, and that women are considered in a different light then men. More inconsistencies, and ambiguities from the book of mythology that you allow to rule your lives.

First of all, slavery in biblical times was not the type of slavery that you have in mind. It was a way for people to get themselves out of debt, so it was more like an indentured servant. That is not what God wants for anyone, but it is simply part of society, since we live in a fallen world. The Bible often deals with the reality of this fallen world, but that does not mean that God approves of everything that happens, it is simply the current reality.

First your claim about slavery is demonstrably not true. While indentured servitude did occur, that was only a minor part of slavery. further, even indentured servitude was still slavery. You make it sound as if it were just "employment". They just "worked" for their master. Yeah, that's not how it worked. That is as revisionist as the Southern Conservatives who want to try to rewrite American slavery as if the slaves were actually thrilled with their positions, and the masters were all loving, kind patriarchs. Yeah, well, for a God who didn't approve of slavery, he sure did go to great lengths to set up a lot of rules on the proper procurement, treatment, and disposition of slaves. However, you seem to be implying something that I have said for some time. All of the rules, and regulations (commandments) in the Bible weren't written by God - had they been they would have been universal, and eternally relevant - rather they were the culturally relevant rules of the period in which they were written, by men.

In God's eyes, which is the only thing that matters, we are all equal, we all have equal value, God loves all of us… As the scripture I posted says, there is no Jew or Greek, male or female, slave or free, we are all one in Christ.

Really? You know the mind of God? That makes you unique in the world, according to Psalms 145:3, Job26:14, and Isaiah 55:8-9. And you certainly can't say that you know because of the Bible. After all, you guys have been doing a bang-up job demonstrating for everyone just how inconsistent, and ambiguous the Bible is. You are impressive...

 

[buttercup]

Really? You know the mind of God? That makes you unique in the world, according to Psalms 145:3, Job26:14, and Isaiah 55:8-9. And you certainly can't say that you know because of the Bible. After all, you guys have been doing a bang-up job demonstrating for everyone just how inconsistent, and ambiguous the Bible is. You are impressive...

You changed my words. I never said I know the mind of God, I said "In God's eyes we are all one in Christ." I know you don't believe the Bible is the word of God, but I do, so I was not sharing my personal opinion I was basing my statement on the scriptures, including the one I quoted which is in black-and-white.

If you are going to have a discussion with me, please do not change my words, that is dishonest.

 

[BulletProof]

Who the fuck needs to even be told not to sell their wife a s a fucking slave?!?!

Any man who foolishly married a miserable feminist?

The people who wrote the Bible, apparently. Also, according to Deuteronomy, if you have a disobedient son, you can take him to the middle of town, and everyone can have a rock throwing party. Now, Christians will say, "Oh! But we don't do that any more," No, but it makes the abuse that you do deliver seem mild by comparison. "Hey, all I do is beat my kid with a belt, at least I'm not stoning him like we used to do..."

The existence of the death penalty carries no implication that anything goes. If the father couldn't make the case for stoning, then he'd be guilty of murder. That case would be measured against statutory capital crimes, local regulation, and "reasonable man" standards.

In the past, before we were rich enough to house criminals securely for life and had high-tech security everywhere, the death penalty was a necessity to keep a civil society. Only a self-righteous libtard gets his panties in a knot over the death penalty for incorrigible predators in ancient times.

Also, libtards' own standards of morality is all twisted.

 

[Czernobog]

Really? You know the mind of God? That makes you unique in the world, according to Psalms 145:3, Job26:14, and Isaiah 55:8-9. And you certainly can't say that you know because of the Bible. After all, you guys have been doing a bang-up job demonstrating for everyone just how inconsistent, and ambiguous the Bible is. You are impressive...

You changed my words. I never said I know the mind of God, I said "In God's eyes we are all one in Christ." I know you don't believe the Bible is the word of God, but I do, so I was not sharing my personal opinion I was basing my statement on the scriptures, including the one I quoted which is in black-and-white.

And in order to know how God perceives us, would mean you know the mind of God. And claiming knowledge from scripture is absurd, as scripture is anything but clear. You guys have been demonstrating that this entire discussion.

 

[Czernobog]

Who the fuck needs to even be told not to sell their wife a s a fucking slave?!?!

Any man who foolishly married a miserable feminist?

The people who wrote the Bible, apparently. Also, according to Deuteronomy, if you have a disobedient son, you can take him to the middle of town, and everyone can have a rock throwing party. Now, Christians will say, "Oh! But we don't do that any more," No, but it makes the abuse that you do deliver seem mild by comparison. "Hey, all I do is beat my kid with a belt, at least I'm not stoning him like we used to do..."

The existence of the death penalty carries no implication that anything goes. If the father couldn't make the case for stoning, then he'd be guilty of murder. That case would be measured against statutory capital crimes, local regulation, and "reasonable man" standards.

"If the father couldn't make the case for stoning"?!?! What a pathetic attempt at a defence for rules that allow the stoning. Of. Your. children!!!!

In the past, before we were rich enough to house criminals securely for life and had high-tech security everywhere, the death penalty was a necessity to keep a civil society. Only a self-righteous libtard gets his panties in a knot over the death penalty for incorrigible predators in ancient times.

And now you are comparing children to predators. Thank you for demonstrating the gross immorality of Biblical teaching.

 

[sealybobo]

This is different from the vague arbitrary rules that seem to whimsically change with the progressive social justice warriors in what manner?

*****CHUCKLE*****

He said don't change the subject. He pretty much nailed it. Christianity may have positives but they really don't outweigh the negatives.

Do I want to try and convince my brother and dad there's no god? No but I hope my nephews wake up and same for everyone's kids in the future. We're better than this

 

[sealybobo]

The Bible's archaic, arbitrary code of ethics is ineffective in the real world. Now, this is not to say that the bible does not have any good ideas - Do not murder, Do not steal, for example.

:


Those good ideas predate the bible and simply because they maintains order in any society.

Children raised their entire lives on vague, arbitrary rules reinforced by fantasy stories of magic, and mythology grow up into adults with a warped sense of reality. They often feel guilty for doing innocent, natural things, believe they deserve to go to Hell, believe in magical spirits and powers, distrust science, fear pleasure and celebrate subjugation of self. These are not the habits of an enlightened society. They're irrational, and they contradict reality. If you live your life according to beliefs that contradict reality you're going to have a bad time.

I agree with that. Words like good or bad are so vague they are often difficult to grasp and arbitrary.


One of the greatest things about living in the US is that there are a variety of religions and kids begin questioning as they get older. Does Christianity have the capacity to create distorted sense of reality? Sure. Could that encourage politicians to attempt to create laws that violate the establishment clause? Sure. Good thing we have that, eh?

Without that clause you might have a pretty good argument. You wouldn't be allowed to argue it, but you would have that. That is the line.

I see many of your arguments are made in the abstract as if these are the Christians way over there. The concept of Christianity way over there. I don't necessarily find these things to be true in daily interaction.

And I am an atheist.

Individually Christianity may be a good thing for some people. Many christians admit they'd do bad things if they didn't believe a god was watching so glad they believe

 

[buttercup]

And in order to know how God perceives us, would mean you know the mind of God. And claiming knowledge from scripture is absurd, as scripture is anything but clear. You guys have been demonstrating that this entire discussion.

We don't have to know everything to know some things. Some things are self-evident. Some things we learn through experience. Other things we learn through God opening our eyes and giving us understanding. You'll most likely disbelieve this, but if you set aside the pride, bitterness and anger...and seek God with a genuine sincere desire for truth… not only will you find it, but scripture will not be as unclear for you as it is right now.

 

[sealybobo]

"Nooo. I, specifically says submit The word "submit" actually means to give over or yield to the power or authority of another."

It doesn't say to submit, to yield or give power to anything but the Spirit of God. Jesus even went one further and said that there was but only One that is good and that is God. Jesus also describe God as a spirit of pure love..... Why not try to define what 'pure love' is if you can.

You appear to desire to put all your hopes on crushing Christianity with the Old Testament yet rarely do Christians teach from the Old Testament or even attempt to because most of them do not understand it and from what you are saying you do not understand it either.

They don't understand yet they believe? That's interesting

 

[sealybobo]

I have been challenged several times to demonstrate how Christianity harms society, presumably be cause the person challenging me thinks that it doesn't. So, this will be the first of numerous discussions demonstrating exactly how Christianity harms society. Now, I am certain that any of a number of theists, and apologists will be tempted to respond with, "Well, but atheism..." fill in the blank. Don't. Resist that temptation. I'm sure that whatever you are about to say about atheism is earth-shattering, profound, and brilliantly insightful. So, by all means, go open a discussion thread with that thought. In the meantime this discussion is about Christians, and their affect on society. Let's do stay on topic. Now, on with the show...

The Bible's archaic, arbitrary code of ethics is ineffective in the real world. Now, this is not to say that the bible does not have any good ideas - Do not murder, Do not steal, for example. However, when you consider all of the rules, and regulations in the Bible as a whole, you discover vagueness, contradictions, absurdities, immorality idolized and morality demonized. Now, I'm sure that there are going to be Christians who swear this isn't true. Allow me to illustrate. According to the rules, as written in Deuteronomy, if you go to war and take women captive, you can marry them after shaving their head and living with them for a month. But, once you have, can't sell them as slaves to anyone else. Who the fuck needs to even be told not to sell their wife a s a fucking slave?!?! The people who wrote the Bible, apparently. Also, according to Deuteronomy, if you have a disobedient son, you can take him to the middle of town, and everyone can have a rock throwing party. Now, Christians will say, "Oh! But we don't do that any more," No, but it makes the abuse that you do deliver seem mild by comparison. "Hey, all I do is beat my kid with a belt, at least I'm not stoning him like we used to do..."

According to 1st Corinthians, a woman should sit down, shut up, and submit to their husbands. Now, again, Christians will insist, "Why yes, a wife should be obedient to her husband," Uh...I won't touch that one. I'll let your own wives deal with you on that score. However, I will point out that the Bible didn't just say "be obedient," Nooo. I, specifically says submit The word "submit" actually means to give over or yield to the power or authority of another. You know who else is expected to "submit"? Servants and slaves. That's right. The Bible specifically relegates wives to the position of servants, and slaves. Oh! And speaking of slaves, the Bible specifically endorses slavery in both the Old, and the New Testament. And this from a people who wrote an entire book about their shitty time as a race of slaves!!! Wrap your head around that one. So, how about we dispense, Christians, with any protestations about the morality advocated in the Bible.

But it gets better! Compounding the problem, the determining factor of whether or not you're forgiven or punished for violating these vague, contradictory, absurd rules is whether or not you believe in a story. Again, Christians are going to say, "That's not how it works! You have to accept him as Lord and Saviour!" And how do we know that he is "Lord and Saviour"? Oh. That's right. That story. So, you have to believe in a story. Okay...okay. You have to believe in a story, and say the magic words demonstrating that you believe the story.

Here's why that's bad. Imagine if you were trying to control a class of 6 year old children and you gave them an arbitrary set of conflicting, vague rules and told them that the only way to escape punishment for breaking the rules is to believe in a story. What would happen? Chaos would break out.

Children raised their entire lives on vague, arbitrary rules reinforced by fantasy stories of magic, and mythology grow up into adults with a warped sense of reality. They often feel guilty for doing innocent, natural things, believe they deserve to go to Hell, believe in magical spirits and powers, distrust science, fear pleasure and celebrate subjugation of self. These are not the habits of an enlightened society. They're irrational, and they contradict reality. If you live your life according to beliefs that contradict reality you're going to have a bad time.

Also, some of those kids believing in archaic, haphazard rules are going to grow up to be politicians, and they are going to try to laws based on those beliefs, which will in turn be draconian, archaic, and haphazard.

What struck me is the admission, "Christians are going to say...." This sums it up beautifully. Christians understand the context of the teachings, how and when to apply them.

You may need to tone down rhetoric less it give people who don't know atheists the impression atheists live in a state of constant terror and panic.

Christians are like snowflakes no two believe the same. That's because the Bible is so vague monks are still debating it

 

[sealybobo]

I have been challenged several times to demonstrate how Christianity harms society, presumably be cause the person challenging me thinks that it doesn't. So, this will be the first of numerous discussions demonstrating exactly how Christianity harms society. Now, I am certain that any of a number of theists, and apologists will be tempted to respond with, "Well, but atheism..." fill in the blank. Don't. Resist that temptation. I'm sure that whatever you are about to say about atheism is earth-shattering, profound, and brilliantly insightful. So, by all means, go open a discussion thread with that thought. In the meantime this discussion is about Christians, and their affect on society. Let's do stay on topic. Now, on with the show...

The Bible's archaic, arbitrary code of ethics is ineffective in the real world. Now, this is not to say that the bible does not have any good ideas - Do not murder, Do not steal, for example. However, when you consider all of the rules, and regulations in the Bible as a whole, you discover vagueness, contradictions, absurdities, immorality idolized and morality demonized. Now, I'm sure that there are going to be Christians who swear this isn't true. Allow me to illustrate. According to the rules, as written in Deuteronomy, if you go to war and take women captive, you can marry them after shaving their head and living with them for a month. But, once you have, can't sell them as slaves to anyone else. Who the fuck needs to even be told not to sell their wife a s a fucking slave?!?! The people who wrote the Bible, apparently. Also, according to Deuteronomy, if you have a disobedient son, you can take him to the middle of town, and everyone can have a rock throwing party. Now, Christians will say, "Oh! But we don't do that any more," No, but it makes the abuse that you do deliver seem mild by comparison. "Hey, all I do is beat my kid with a belt, at least I'm not stoning him like we used to do..."

According to 1st Corinthians, a woman should sit down, shut up, and submit to their husbands. Now, again, Christians will insist, "Why yes, a wife should be obedient to her husband," Uh...I won't touch that one. I'll let your own wives deal with you on that score. However, I will point out that the Bible didn't just say "be obedient," Nooo. I, specifically says submit The word "submit" actually means to give over or yield to the power or authority of another. You know who else is expected to "submit"? Servants and slaves. That's right. The Bible specifically relegates wives to the position of servants, and slaves. Oh! And speaking of slaves, the Bible specifically endorses slavery in both the Old, and the New Testament. And this from a people who wrote an entire book about their shitty time as a race of slaves!!! Wrap your head around that one. So, how about we dispense, Christians, with any protestations about the morality advocated in the Bible.

But it gets better! Compounding the problem, the determining factor of whether or not you're forgiven or punished for violating these vague, contradictory, absurd rules is whether or not you believe in a story. Again, Christians are going to say, "That's not how it works! You have to accept him as Lord and Saviour!" And how do we know that he is "Lord and Saviour"? Oh. That's right. That story. So, you have to believe in a story. Okay...okay. You have to believe in a story, and say the magic words demonstrating that you believe the story.

Here's why that's bad. Imagine if you were trying to control a class of 6 year old children and you gave them an arbitrary set of conflicting, vague rules and told them that the only way to escape punishment for breaking the rules is to believe in a story. What would happen? Chaos would break out.

Children raised their entire lives on vague, arbitrary rules reinforced by fantasy stories of magic, and mythology grow up into adults with a warped sense of reality. They often feel guilty for doing innocent, natural things, believe they deserve to go to Hell, believe in magical spirits and powers, distrust science, fear pleasure and celebrate subjugation of self. These are not the habits of an enlightened society. They're irrational, and they contradict reality. If you live your life according to beliefs that contradict reality you're going to have a bad time.

Also, some of those kids believing in archaic, haphazard rules are going to grow up to be politicians, and they are going to try to laws based on those beliefs, which will in turn be draconian, archaic, and haphazard.

The Bible does not dictate ethics or morality, it reflects the values of the society in which it exists. The OT & NT have existed through many millennium and reflect the changing mores of the cultures that created its various books. The Bible is not dangerous but can be weaponized by anyone. There is so much there you can cherry-pick a passage to support any position. For example, there is plenty in Leviticus but the only thing we hear is a prohibition about homosexuality.

One reason I'm not a believer is this 'evolution'. How could one God create so many different moral codes?

Ha! The Bible is not dangerous but can be weaponized by anyone? Sounds dangerous to me

 

[BulletProof]

And now you are comparing children to predators.

Some "children" are predators. Your self-righteous routine only makes you look like a shithead.

 

[Czernobog]

And in order to know how God perceives us, would mean you know the mind of God. And claiming knowledge from scripture is absurd, as scripture is anything but clear. You guys have been demonstrating that this entire discussion.

We don't have to know everything to know some things. Some things are self-evident. Some things we learn through experience. Other things we learn through God opening our eyes and giving us understanding. You'll most likely disbelieve this, but if you set aside the pride, bitterness and anger...and seek God with a genuine sincere desire for truth… not only will you find it, but scripture will not be as unclear for you as it is right now.

Really? Just pray for guidance, and it'll all become clear? Really? Soooo...how do you explain 33 thousand protestant denominations in the world? If the scripture was so crystal clear to every believer, shouldn't it be the same clarity for every believer? Yet...not so much. Yeah...I think its more likely that, like the vast majority of "believers" your just delusional, and full of shit.

 

[Muhammed]

I have been challenged several times to demonstrate how Christianity harms society, presumably be cause the person challenging me thinks that it doesn't. So, this will be the first of numerous discussions demonstrating exactly how Christianity harms society. Now, I am certain that any of a number of theists, and apologists will be tempted to respond with, "Well, but atheism..." fill in the blank. Don't. Resist that temptation. I'm sure that whatever you are about to say about atheism is earth-shattering, profound, and brilliantly insightful. So, by all means, go open a discussion thread with that thought. In the meantime this discussion is about Christians, and their affect on society. Let's do stay on topic. Now, on with the show...

The Bible's archaic, arbitrary code of ethics is ineffective in the real world. Now, this is not to say that the bible does not have any good ideas - Do not murder, Do not steal, for example. However, when you consider all of the rules, and regulations in the Bible as a whole, you discover vagueness, contradictions, absurdities, immorality idolized and morality demonized. Now, I'm sure that there are going to be Christians who swear this isn't true. Allow me to illustrate. According to the rules, as written in Deuteronomy, if you go to war and take women captive, you can marry them after shaving their head and living with them for a month. But, once you have, can't sell them as slaves to anyone else. Who the fuck needs to even be told not to sell their wife a s a fucking slave?!?! The people who wrote the Bible, apparently. Also, according to Deuteronomy, if you have a disobedient son, you can take him to the middle of town, and everyone can have a rock throwing party. Now, Christians will say, "Oh! But we don't do that any more," No, but it makes the abuse that you do deliver seem mild by comparison. "Hey, all I do is beat my kid with a belt, at least I'm not stoning him like we used to do..."

According to 1st Corinthians, a woman should sit down, shut up, and submit to their husbands. Now, again, Christians will insist, "Why yes, a wife should be obedient to her husband," Uh...I won't touch that one. I'll let your own wives deal with you on that score. However, I will point out that the Bible didn't just say "be obedient," Nooo. I, specifically says submit The word "submit" actually means to give over or yield to the power or authority of another. You know who else is expected to "submit"? Servants and slaves. That's right. The Bible specifically relegates wives to the position of servants, and slaves. Oh! And speaking of slaves, the Bible specifically endorses slavery in both the Old, and the New Testament. And this from a people who wrote an entire book about their shitty time as a race of slaves!!! Wrap your head around that one. So, how about we dispense, Christians, with any protestations about the morality advocated in the Bible.

But it gets better! Compounding the problem, the determining factor of whether or not you're forgiven or punished for violating these vague, contradictory, absurd rules is whether or not you believe in a story. Again, Christians are going to say, "That's not how it works! You have to accept him as Lord and Saviour!" And how do we know that he is "Lord and Saviour"? Oh. That's right. That story. So, you have to believe in a story. Okay...okay. You have to believe in a story, and say the magic words demonstrating that you believe the story.

Here's why that's bad. Imagine if you were trying to control a class of 6 year old children and you gave them an arbitrary set of conflicting, vague rules and told them that the only way to escape punishment for breaking the rules is to believe in a story. What would happen? Chaos would break out.

Children raised their entire lives on vague, arbitrary rules reinforced by fantasy stories of magic, and mythology grow up into adults with a warped sense of reality. They often feel guilty for doing innocent, natural things, believe they deserve to go to Hell, believe in magical spirits and powers, distrust science, fear pleasure and celebrate subjugation of self. These are not the habits of an enlightened society. They're irrational, and they contradict reality. If you live your life according to beliefs that contradict reality you're going to have a bad time.

Also, some of those kids believing in archaic, haphazard rules are going to grow up to be politicians, and they are going to try to laws based on those beliefs, which will in turn be draconian, archaic, and haphazard.

A lot of immature ex-Christians such as yourself are very intolerant. Grow up.

 

[Czernobog]

And now you are comparing children to predators.

Some "children" are predators. Your self-righteous routine only makes you look like a shithead.

Wow. Please don't ever have children.

 

[BulletProof]

Really? Just pray for guidance, and it'll all become clear? Really? Soooo...how do you explain 33 thousand protestant denominations in the world? If the scripture was so crystal clear to every believer, shouldn't it be the same clarity for every believer? Yet...not so much. Yeah...I think its more likely that, like the vast majority of "believers" your just delusional, and full of shit.

Liberals and "fundamentalist" anti-intellectuals (e.g. pretribbers) are not Bible-believers, so they make up random shit. The issue isn't the clarity of the Bible, but the degree of commitment to the Bible. Otherwise, division between denominations is mostly political, having little to do with the clarity of the Bible. But, you're a self-righteous ass and you think idiots reaching random conclusions reflects on the quality of the Bible rather than on the quality of the brains of the idiots.

 

[Czernobog]

I have been challenged several times to demonstrate how Christianity harms society, presumably be cause the person challenging me thinks that it doesn't. So, this will be the first of numerous discussions demonstrating exactly how Christianity harms society. Now, I am certain that any of a number of theists, and apologists will be tempted to respond with, "Well, but atheism..." fill in the blank. Don't. Resist that temptation. I'm sure that whatever you are about to say about atheism is earth-shattering, profound, and brilliantly insightful. So, by all means, go open a discussion thread with that thought. In the meantime this discussion is about Christians, and their affect on society. Let's do stay on topic. Now, on with the show...

The Bible's archaic, arbitrary code of ethics is ineffective in the real world. Now, this is not to say that the bible does not have any good ideas - Do not murder, Do not steal, for example. However, when you consider all of the rules, and regulations in the Bible as a whole, you discover vagueness, contradictions, absurdities, immorality idolized and morality demonized. Now, I'm sure that there are going to be Christians who swear this isn't true. Allow me to illustrate. According to the rules, as written in Deuteronomy, if you go to war and take women captive, you can marry them after shaving their head and living with them for a month. But, once you have, can't sell them as slaves to anyone else. Who the fuck needs to even be told not to sell their wife a s a fucking slave?!?! The people who wrote the Bible, apparently. Also, according to Deuteronomy, if you have a disobedient son, you can take him to the middle of town, and everyone can have a rock throwing party. Now, Christians will say, "Oh! But we don't do that any more," No, but it makes the abuse that you do deliver seem mild by comparison. "Hey, all I do is beat my kid with a belt, at least I'm not stoning him like we used to do..."

According to 1st Corinthians, a woman should sit down, shut up, and submit to their husbands. Now, again, Christians will insist, "Why yes, a wife should be obedient to her husband," Uh...I won't touch that one. I'll let your own wives deal with you on that score. However, I will point out that the Bible didn't just say "be obedient," Nooo. I, specifically says submit The word "submit" actually means to give over or yield to the power or authority of another. You know who else is expected to "submit"? Servants and slaves. That's right. The Bible specifically relegates wives to the position of servants, and slaves. Oh! And speaking of slaves, the Bible specifically endorses slavery in both the Old, and the New Testament. And this from a people who wrote an entire book about their shitty time as a race of slaves!!! Wrap your head around that one. So, how about we dispense, Christians, with any protestations about the morality advocated in the Bible.

But it gets better! Compounding the problem, the determining factor of whether or not you're forgiven or punished for violating these vague, contradictory, absurd rules is whether or not you believe in a story. Again, Christians are going to say, "That's not how it works! You have to accept him as Lord and Saviour!" And how do we know that he is "Lord and Saviour"? Oh. That's right. That story. So, you have to believe in a story. Okay...okay. You have to believe in a story, and say the magic words demonstrating that you believe the story.

Here's why that's bad. Imagine if you were trying to control a class of 6 year old children and you gave them an arbitrary set of conflicting, vague rules and told them that the only way to escape punishment for breaking the rules is to believe in a story. What would happen? Chaos would break out.

Children raised their entire lives on vague, arbitrary rules reinforced by fantasy stories of magic, and mythology grow up into adults with a warped sense of reality. They often feel guilty for doing innocent, natural things, believe they deserve to go to Hell, believe in magical spirits and powers, distrust science, fear pleasure and celebrate subjugation of self. These are not the habits of an enlightened society. They're irrational, and they contradict reality. If you live your life according to beliefs that contradict reality you're going to have a bad time.

Also, some of those kids believing in archaic, haphazard rules are going to grow up to be politicians, and they are going to try to laws based on those beliefs, which will in turn be draconian, archaic, and haphazard.

A lot of immature ex-Christians such as yourself are very intolerant. Grow up.

WE HAVE A FLAG ON THE PLAY

​

 

[Czernobog]

Really? Just pray for guidance, and it'll all become clear? Really? Soooo...how do you explain 33 thousand protestant denominations in the world? If the scripture was so crystal clear to every believer, shouldn't it be the same clarity for every believer? Yet...not so much. Yeah...I think its more likely that, like the vast majority of "believers" your just delusional, and full of shit.

Liberals and "fundamentalist" anti-intellectuals (e.g. pretribbers) are not Bible-believers, so they make up random shit. The issue isn't the clarity of the Bible, but the degree of commitment to the Bible. Otherwise, division between denominations is mostly political, having little to do with the clarity of the Bible. But, you're a self-righteous ass and you think idiots reaching random conclusions reflects on the quality of the Bible rather than on the quality of the brains of the idiots.

And those same denominations would say the same about you. So...yeah...clearly "praying for guidance" doesn't quite clear things up as much as you guys claim...

 

[sealybobo]

And in order to know how God perceives us, would mean you know the mind of God. And claiming knowledge from scripture is absurd, as scripture is anything but clear. You guys have been demonstrating that this entire discussion.

We don't have to know everything to know some things. Some things are self-evident. Some things we learn through experience. Other things we learn through God opening our eyes and giving us understanding. You'll most likely disbelieve this, but if you set aside the pride, bitterness and anger...and seek God with a genuine sincere desire for truth… not only will you find it, but scripture will not be as unclear for you as it is right now.

Not true. I spent 30 years with an open mind believing in god. I stopped believing because I realized it's man made up and czernobog has explained it as nausium on how and why that's true.