Texas Gun Group Reenacts Paris Shooting.....Everybody DIES!!!!

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

Sharp Shooter isn't all that impressive. Now had you qualified Expert I might be impressed.

36 out of 40 and you better pray that your weapon doesn't jam. I pulled that off twice in my Army career, other times I got like 35 and changed my marksmanship badge to Sharpshooter. It's harder than you think. Very few soldiers can consistently qualify expert with the M-16A2 rifle. Your criticism is unjustified and more than a little ignorant.

I have never failed to qualify Expert with any weapon I have ever qualified with. That includes the M-16A1 I qualified with back in the 1970's when I was competing in national competitions and I befriended the Army guys at the competition and they invited me to visit their base. They even gave me one of their AMU patches because they liked me so much!


And why on earth would your weapon jam? That happens when there is a mechanical failure (super duper rare) or you don't maintain your weapon properly in which case you get what you deserve.

Most weapon jams occur because the magazines used for weapons qualification on the range are overused 10 round capacity units and loaded by other soldiers, so the quality of the magazine you get can vary. Being on the range, they often have sand, the spring is worn from overuse and feed failures happen, and the ammunition is loaded unevenly, that is, not backed all the way in so the tip of the bullet catches causing a feed failure or a double feed. Every qualification invariably involves weapons malfunctions, something that can't always be avoided.


That's not even to get into the issue of popup targets not registering a hit because they're also overused and bullets go through gaps in the target. This is what those of us who were really in the Army know about range qualifications.

And real Army veterans never upbraid another soldier for qualifying Sharpshooter.

Magazine maintenance is part of weapon maintenance last time I checked. I disassemble, and clean my mags at least once a year. I was never in the Army, but BA's assertion was meant to give him some sort of "expertise" on the subject, but I regularly shoot with guys who never shoot below Expert. Ever. So I felt his declaration a bit presumptous.

One of my best friends was a Navy surgeon and I have pictures of him running a USMC range during WWII. I have had many Marines claim that it is staged, till I let them know he was a Palma Match winner. I learned a tremendous amount from him, and others like him.

Do you not understand that you don't get the option when qualifying?

You do not use your own magazines. You use the ones that you are given with just enough time to load some rounds into them and start firing. Magazines that are NOT combat ready because they are overused garbage.

Hell, most of the time you don't even qualify with your own weapon anymore. They simply hand you a random one from the armory that the last guy barely cleaned because he wasn't going to fire it again and you just have to deal with it.

Jams are a GIVEN on a military qualifying range, not a possibility. I am not sure if I have ever managed to fire the entire 100 rounds without at least one issue with the weapon. Last time it was particularly fun when MY SIGHT FELL OFF. The 'equipment' we have to work with is pathetic at best.

I did try to explain this. Springs wear out, sand gets in (sand ALWAYS gets in!) and jams it. Westwall comes off as a naive dilettante criticizing what he doesn't understand. These ten round and thirty round magazines are used repeatedly, daily, jamming in rounds with stripper clips and putting them out on the range to be spent and sent back to be reloaded. Double feeds, feed failures, and other malfunctions are common. This is what those of us who really served in the Army understand.

 

[westwall]

36 out of 40 and you better pray that your weapon doesn't jam. I pulled that off twice in my Army career, other times I got like 35 and changed my marksmanship badge to Sharpshooter. It's harder than you think. Very few soldiers can consistently qualify expert with the M-16A2 rifle. Your criticism is unjustified and more than a little ignorant.

I have never failed to qualify Expert with any weapon I have ever qualified with. That includes the M-16A1 I qualified with back in the 1970's when I was competing in national competitions and I befriended the Army guys at the competition and they invited me to visit their base. They even gave me one of their AMU patches because they liked me so much!


And why on earth would your weapon jam? That happens when there is a mechanical failure (super duper rare) or you don't maintain your weapon properly in which case you get what you deserve.

Most weapon jams occur because the magazines used for weapons qualification on the range are overused 10 round capacity units and loaded by other soldiers, so the quality of the magazine you get can vary. Being on the range, they often have sand, the spring is worn from overuse and feed failures happen, and the ammunition is loaded unevenly, that is, not backed all the way in so the tip of the bullet catches causing a feed failure or a double feed. Every qualification invariably involves weapons malfunctions, something that can't always be avoided.


That's not even to get into the issue of popup targets not registering a hit because they're also overused and bullets go through gaps in the target. This is what those of us who were really in the Army know about range qualifications.

And real Army veterans never upbraid another soldier for qualifying Sharpshooter.

Magazine maintenance is part of weapon maintenance last time I checked. I disassemble, and clean my mags at least once a year. I was never in the Army, but BA's assertion was meant to give him some sort of "expertise" on the subject, but I regularly shoot with guys who never shoot below Expert. Ever. So I felt his declaration a bit presumptous.

One of my best friends was a Navy surgeon and I have pictures of him running a USMC range during WWII. I have had many Marines claim that it is staged, till I let them know he was a Palma Match winner. I learned a tremendous amount from him, and others like him.

Do you not understand that you don't get the option when qualifying?

You do not use your own magazines. You use the ones that you are given with just enough time to load some rounds into them and start firing. Magazines that are NOT combat ready because they are overused garbage.

Hell, most of the time you don't even qualify with your own weapon anymore. They simply hand you a random one from the armory that the last guy barely cleaned because he wasn't going to fire it again and you just have to deal with it.

Jams are a GIVEN on a military qualifying range, not a possibility. I am not sure if I have ever managed to fire the entire 100 rounds without at least one issue with the weapon. Last time it was particularly fun when MY SIGHT FELL OFF. The 'equipment' we have to work with is pathetic at best.

I did try to explain this. Springs wear out, sand gets in (sand ALWAYS gets in!) and jams it. Westwall comes off as a naive dilettante criticizing what he doesn't understand. These ten round and thirty round magazines are used repeatedly, daily, jamming in rounds with stripper clips and putting them out on the range to be spent and sent back to be reloaded. Double feeds, feed failures, and other malfunctions are common. This is what those of us who really served in the Army understand.

I am far from a dilettante, but I was unaware that our military would be so poorly run, as to allow the very basics to degrade in such a manner. I should have suspected based on who the POTUS is and the idiots he surrounds himself with. But I am responsible for my weapons. That means all aspects of them. Tearing down a magazine is a trivial job, and I would expect any soldier would do so to make sure his mags were clean and ready to go. Can't do anything about weak springs, but those don't occur for thousands of cycles. So most mag issues are going to be cleanliness related.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Texas gun rights group reenacts Paris massacre with 8216 armed civilian 8217 8212 and everyone still dies

Just to fucking funny for words.

"The Good Guy With A Gun" stopping "A Bad Guy With A Gun" theory was put to the test when "The Truth About Guns" decided to role-play the shooting in Paris of the Satirical Newspaper Charlie Hebdo.

The only time "The Good Guy With A Gun" lived is when he ran for his life. In every other scenario played by the Texas Gun Huggers, everybody, including idiot Good Guy died.

"The only thing that a Bad Guy with a gun is a Good Guy with a gun". Or so said Gun Manufacturer Supporter Wayne LaPierre.

Except when the Bad Guy with a gun shoots first and kills some Rambo wanna-be idiot who thinks he can kill the Bad Guy because the Bad Guy would never shoot first.

This is stupid. Most would be smart enough not to take on eleven armed assailants by themselves.
Now if I'm backed into a corner and I have no choice? I'm going down shooting.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

I have never failed to qualify Expert with any weapon I have ever qualified with. That includes the M-16A1 I qualified with back in the 1970's when I was competing in national competitions and I befriended the Army guys at the competition and they invited me to visit their base. They even gave me one of their AMU patches because they liked me so much!


And why on earth would your weapon jam? That happens when there is a mechanical failure (super duper rare) or you don't maintain your weapon properly in which case you get what you deserve.

Most weapon jams occur because the magazines used for weapons qualification on the range are overused 10 round capacity units and loaded by other soldiers, so the quality of the magazine you get can vary. Being on the range, they often have sand, the spring is worn from overuse and feed failures happen, and the ammunition is loaded unevenly, that is, not backed all the way in so the tip of the bullet catches causing a feed failure or a double feed. Every qualification invariably involves weapons malfunctions, something that can't always be avoided.


That's not even to get into the issue of popup targets not registering a hit because they're also overused and bullets go through gaps in the target. This is what those of us who were really in the Army know about range qualifications.

And real Army veterans never upbraid another soldier for qualifying Sharpshooter.

Magazine maintenance is part of weapon maintenance last time I checked. I disassemble, and clean my mags at least once a year. I was never in the Army, but BA's assertion was meant to give him some sort of "expertise" on the subject, but I regularly shoot with guys who never shoot below Expert. Ever. So I felt his declaration a bit presumptous.

One of my best friends was a Navy surgeon and I have pictures of him running a USMC range during WWII. I have had many Marines claim that it is staged, till I let them know he was a Palma Match winner. I learned a tremendous amount from him, and others like him.

Do you not understand that you don't get the option when qualifying?

You do not use your own magazines. You use the ones that you are given with just enough time to load some rounds into them and start firing. Magazines that are NOT combat ready because they are overused garbage.

Hell, most of the time you don't even qualify with your own weapon anymore. They simply hand you a random one from the armory that the last guy barely cleaned because he wasn't going to fire it again and you just have to deal with it.

Jams are a GIVEN on a military qualifying range, not a possibility. I am not sure if I have ever managed to fire the entire 100 rounds without at least one issue with the weapon. Last time it was particularly fun when MY SIGHT FELL OFF. The 'equipment' we have to work with is pathetic at best.

I did try to explain this. Springs wear out, sand gets in (sand ALWAYS gets in!) and jams it. Westwall comes off as a naive dilettante criticizing what he doesn't understand. These ten round and thirty round magazines are used repeatedly, daily, jamming in rounds with stripper clips and putting them out on the range to be spent and sent back to be reloaded. Double feeds, feed failures, and other malfunctions are common. This is what those of us who really served in the Army understand.

I am far from a dilettante, but I was unaware that our military would be so poorly run, as to allow the very basics to degrade in such a manner. I should have suspected based on who the POTUS is and the idiots he surrounds himself with. But I am responsible for my weapons. That means all aspects of them. Tearing down a magazine is a trivial job, and I would expect any soldier would do so to make sure his mags were clean and ready to go. Can't do anything about weak springs, but those don't occur for thousands of cycles. So most mag issues are going to be cleanliness related.

If you had any sense you would stop talking. Soldiers are brought to the range for qualification in company and battery, sometimes battalion strength. They are rodded onto the range (I'm purposely using terms you don't know to illustrate a point), and then every move on the range is regimented and supervised. Once they approach the firing line, they are given opportunity to prepare their foxhole and hasty. Then at the same time, every soldier on the line is issued a two magazines and given specific instructions not to load them or to even TOUCH them by the range NCOIC. After firing, the magazines are policed and returned to storage. No soldier possesses their own magazines and if they did, they wouldn't be allowed on the firing range. Soldiers being rodded off the range are searched for brass and ammo or any other contraband that can't be removed from the range before. Every soldier is well aware they can be court martialed for any misconduct on the range.

So there's ZERO opportunity to inspect magazines prior to firing them. They are loaded by a detail of soldiers under the supervision of an NCO and they are returned, a count ensuring that EVERY MAGAZINE has been accounted for.

Moreover, you have NO IDEA how often weak springs are a factor in firing ranges. They are used daily, repeatedly, for weeks, months, and aren't thrown out until they're actually broken. They look something like this:

And another point, I served under Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, and no president has any influence on these policies. 420,000 Army soldiers have to qualify on these ranges every 6 months, and then there are the other branches of service and federal agencies....ALL OF THEM using these same magazines.

And finally, you miss the larger point. It's unbecoming of any military service member to criticize the marksmanship of a U.S. Army soldier. Somebody who's able to knock down 32-35 out of 40 targets that pop up unpredictably between 50 and 300 meters, giving only a few seconds to acquire, aim, and fire, is somebody that I trust on the battlefield to have my back.

This is what us real combat veterans believe.

So please stop talking. Everything you say is ignorance, and offensive at that.

 

[westwall]

Most weapon jams occur because the magazines used for weapons qualification on the range are overused 10 round capacity units and loaded by other soldiers, so the quality of the magazine you get can vary. Being on the range, they often have sand, the spring is worn from overuse and feed failures happen, and the ammunition is loaded unevenly, that is, not backed all the way in so the tip of the bullet catches causing a feed failure or a double feed. Every qualification invariably involves weapons malfunctions, something that can't always be avoided.


That's not even to get into the issue of popup targets not registering a hit because they're also overused and bullets go through gaps in the target. This is what those of us who were really in the Army know about range qualifications.

And real Army veterans never upbraid another soldier for qualifying Sharpshooter.

Magazine maintenance is part of weapon maintenance last time I checked. I disassemble, and clean my mags at least once a year. I was never in the Army, but BA's assertion was meant to give him some sort of "expertise" on the subject, but I regularly shoot with guys who never shoot below Expert. Ever. So I felt his declaration a bit presumptous.

One of my best friends was a Navy surgeon and I have pictures of him running a USMC range during WWII. I have had many Marines claim that it is staged, till I let them know he was a Palma Match winner. I learned a tremendous amount from him, and others like him.

Do you not understand that you don't get the option when qualifying?

You do not use your own magazines. You use the ones that you are given with just enough time to load some rounds into them and start firing. Magazines that are NOT combat ready because they are overused garbage.

Hell, most of the time you don't even qualify with your own weapon anymore. They simply hand you a random one from the armory that the last guy barely cleaned because he wasn't going to fire it again and you just have to deal with it.

Jams are a GIVEN on a military qualifying range, not a possibility. I am not sure if I have ever managed to fire the entire 100 rounds without at least one issue with the weapon. Last time it was particularly fun when MY SIGHT FELL OFF. The 'equipment' we have to work with is pathetic at best.

I did try to explain this. Springs wear out, sand gets in (sand ALWAYS gets in!) and jams it. Westwall comes off as a naive dilettante criticizing what he doesn't understand. These ten round and thirty round magazines are used repeatedly, daily, jamming in rounds with stripper clips and putting them out on the range to be spent and sent back to be reloaded. Double feeds, feed failures, and other malfunctions are common. This is what those of us who really served in the Army understand.

I am far from a dilettante, but I was unaware that our military would be so poorly run, as to allow the very basics to degrade in such a manner. I should have suspected based on who the POTUS is and the idiots he surrounds himself with. But I am responsible for my weapons. That means all aspects of them. Tearing down a magazine is a trivial job, and I would expect any soldier would do so to make sure his mags were clean and ready to go. Can't do anything about weak springs, but those don't occur for thousands of cycles. So most mag issues are going to be cleanliness related.

If you had any sense you would stop talking. Soldiers are brought to the range for qualification in company and battery, sometimes battalion strength. They are rodded onto the range (I'm purposely using terms you don't know to illustrate a point), and then every move on the range is regimented and supervised. Once they approach the firing line, they are given opportunity to prepare their foxhole and hasty. Then at the same time, every soldier on the line is issued a two magazines and given specific instructions not to load them or to even TOUCH them by the range NCOIC. After firing, the magazines are policed and returned to storage. No soldier possesses their own magazines and if they did, they wouldn't be allowed on the firing range. Soldiers being rodded off the range are searched for brass and ammo or any other contraband that can't be removed from the range before. Every soldier is well aware they can be court martialed for any misconduct on the range.

So there's ZERO opportunity to inspect magazines prior to firing them. They are loaded by a detail of soldiers under the supervision of an NCO and they are returned, a count ensuring that EVERY MAGAZINE has been accounted for.

Moreover, you have NO IDEA how often weak springs are a factor in firing ranges. They are used daily, repeatedly, for weeks, months, and aren't thrown out until they're actually broken. They look something like this:

And another point, I served under Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, and no president has any influence on these policies. 420,000 Army soldiers have to qualify on these ranges every 6 months, and then there are the other branches of service and federal agencies....ALL OF THEM using these same magazines.

And finally, you miss the larger point. It's unbecoming of any military service member to criticize the marksmanship of a U.S. Army soldier. Somebody who's able to knock down 32-35 out of 40 targets that pop up unpredictably between 50 and 300 meters, giving only a few seconds to acquire, aim, and fire, is somebody that I trust on the battlefield to have my back.

This is what us real combat veterans believe.

So please stop talking. Everything you say is ignorance, and offensive at that.

Had you bothered to read more than the beginning I was stating that it is sad that the military treats the weapons so poorly. That the soldiers have no ability to maintain what they are using for range qualification is ridiculous to me. As far as being rodded go's it is an old phrase having to do with a q tip shoved up your dick to check for VD. It also refers to the brass rod inserted in the bore to make sure the weapon is empty. It has many other derivations, but those are the basics.

Don't ever presume that because I didn't serve I don't know anything. You will find it embarrassing.

BTW, aren't soldiers able to buy their own mags? PMAGs can be had for 12 bucks or so. Then they would have good mags for their use that they could maintain? Are there regs against having mags? I know there are for personal weapons, but does that extend to mags as well?

Finally, I am not into PC talk. The subject of marksmanship was brought up as a qualifier that that made him an expert and that his opinion carried more weight because of that which is absolute horseshit. That's why the subject of marksmanship came up in the first place.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

Magazine maintenance is part of weapon maintenance last time I checked. I disassemble, and clean my mags at least once a year. I was never in the Army, but BA's assertion was meant to give him some sort of "expertise" on the subject, but I regularly shoot with guys who never shoot below Expert. Ever. So I felt his declaration a bit presumptous.

One of my best friends was a Navy surgeon and I have pictures of him running a USMC range during WWII. I have had many Marines claim that it is staged, till I let them know he was a Palma Match winner. I learned a tremendous amount from him, and others like him.

Do you not understand that you don't get the option when qualifying?

You do not use your own magazines. You use the ones that you are given with just enough time to load some rounds into them and start firing. Magazines that are NOT combat ready because they are overused garbage.

Hell, most of the time you don't even qualify with your own weapon anymore. They simply hand you a random one from the armory that the last guy barely cleaned because he wasn't going to fire it again and you just have to deal with it.

Jams are a GIVEN on a military qualifying range, not a possibility. I am not sure if I have ever managed to fire the entire 100 rounds without at least one issue with the weapon. Last time it was particularly fun when MY SIGHT FELL OFF. The 'equipment' we have to work with is pathetic at best.

I did try to explain this. Springs wear out, sand gets in (sand ALWAYS gets in!) and jams it. Westwall comes off as a naive dilettante criticizing what he doesn't understand. These ten round and thirty round magazines are used repeatedly, daily, jamming in rounds with stripper clips and putting them out on the range to be spent and sent back to be reloaded. Double feeds, feed failures, and other malfunctions are common. This is what those of us who really served in the Army understand.

I am far from a dilettante, but I was unaware that our military would be so poorly run, as to allow the very basics to degrade in such a manner. I should have suspected based on who the POTUS is and the idiots he surrounds himself with. But I am responsible for my weapons. That means all aspects of them. Tearing down a magazine is a trivial job, and I would expect any soldier would do so to make sure his mags were clean and ready to go. Can't do anything about weak springs, but those don't occur for thousands of cycles. So most mag issues are going to be cleanliness related.

If you had any sense you would stop talking. Soldiers are brought to the range for qualification in company and battery, sometimes battalion strength. They are rodded onto the range (I'm purposely using terms you don't know to illustrate a point), and then every move on the range is regimented and supervised. Once they approach the firing line, they are given opportunity to prepare their foxhole and hasty. Then at the same time, every soldier on the line is issued a two magazines and given specific instructions not to load them or to even TOUCH them by the range NCOIC. After firing, the magazines are policed and returned to storage. No soldier possesses their own magazines and if they did, they wouldn't be allowed on the firing range. Soldiers being rodded off the range are searched for brass and ammo or any other contraband that can't be removed from the range before. Every soldier is well aware they can be court martialed for any misconduct on the range.

So there's ZERO opportunity to inspect magazines prior to firing them. They are loaded by a detail of soldiers under the supervision of an NCO and they are returned, a count ensuring that EVERY MAGAZINE has been accounted for.

Moreover, you have NO IDEA how often weak springs are a factor in firing ranges. They are used daily, repeatedly, for weeks, months, and aren't thrown out until they're actually broken. They look something like this:

And another point, I served under Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, and no president has any influence on these policies. 420,000 Army soldiers have to qualify on these ranges every 6 months, and then there are the other branches of service and federal agencies....ALL OF THEM using these same magazines.

And finally, you miss the larger point. It's unbecoming of any military service member to criticize the marksmanship of a U.S. Army soldier. Somebody who's able to knock down 32-35 out of 40 targets that pop up unpredictably between 50 and 300 meters, giving only a few seconds to acquire, aim, and fire, is somebody that I trust on the battlefield to have my back.

This is what us real combat veterans believe.

So please stop talking. Everything you say is ignorance, and offensive at that.

Had you bothered to read more than the beginning I was stating that it is sad that the military treats the weapons so poorly. That the soldiers have no ability to maintain what they are using for range qualification is ridiculous to me. As far as being rodded go's it is an old phrase having to do with a q tip shoved up your dick to check for VD. It also refers to the brass rod inserted in the bore to make sure the weapon is empty. It has many other derivations, but those are the basics.

Don't ever presume that because I didn't serve I don't know anything. You will find it embarrassing.

BTW, aren't soldiers able to buy their own mags? PMAGs can be had for 12 bucks or so. Then they would have good mags for their use that they could maintain? Are there regs against having mags? I know there are for personal weapons, but does that extend to mags as well?

Finally, I am not into PC talk. The subject of marksmanship was brought up as a qualifier that that made him an expert and that his opinion carried more weight because of that which is absolute horseshit. That's why the subject of marksmanship came up in the first place.

That last paragraph I already agreed with earlier.

And as I said, range time is heavily regulated by the range NCOIC, soldiers cannot bring their own magazines, not to be repetitive, but you seemed to miss that the first time. The reason for this is to exercise tight control and supervision on when soldiers possess live ammunition so that hundreds of soldiers can get through the process safely, up to a battalion a day. Every movement is controlled, right face, forward march, detail halt, one two! Stand at parade rest in front of your firing position but do not enter your fox hole until instructed by the range officer.

Once soldiers enter their foxholes, there are loaded magazines to their right. When instructed, they insert a magazine, release the bolt carrier, and wait, weapons pointed down range. Then when they're instructed, they rotate their selector switch from safe to semi and the range is now hot. Several NCO's pace behind the firing line supervising the soldiers, ensuring compliance with every command. All of this has a reason; accidents on the range are rare.

Are you getting the picture now?

 

[Missouri_Mike]

Texas gun rights group reenacts Paris massacre with 8216 armed civilian 8217 8212 and everyone still dies

Just to fucking funny for words.

"The Good Guy With A Gun" stopping "A Bad Guy With A Gun" theory was put to the test when "The Truth About Guns" decided to role-play the shooting in Paris of the Satirical Newspaper Charlie Hebdo.

The only time "The Good Guy With A Gun" lived is when he ran for his life. In every other scenario played by the Texas Gun Huggers, everybody, including idiot Good Guy died.

"The only thing that a Bad Guy with a gun is a Good Guy with a gun". Or so said Gun Manufacturer Supporter Wayne LaPierre.

Except when the Bad Guy with a gun shoots first and kills some Rambo wanna-be idiot who thinks he can kill the Bad Guy because the Bad Guy would never shoot first.

Didn't they already die? That was reality. Unarmed people will die in any terrorist example. Yet only one armed man is supposed to turn the situation around fully and that's yourexcuse for disarming everyone?

The guy shooting back and killing terrorists would be a hero. Even if it was a lost cause at least he tried unlike you fucking pussies.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

Texas gun rights group reenacts Paris massacre with 8216 armed civilian 8217 8212 and everyone still dies

Just to fucking funny for words.

"The Good Guy With A Gun" stopping "A Bad Guy With A Gun" theory was put to the test when "The Truth About Guns" decided to role-play the shooting in Paris of the Satirical Newspaper Charlie Hebdo.

The only time "The Good Guy With A Gun" lived is when he ran for his life. In every other scenario played by the Texas Gun Huggers, everybody, including idiot Good Guy died.

"The only thing that a Bad Guy with a gun is a Good Guy with a gun". Or so said Gun Manufacturer Supporter Wayne LaPierre.

Except when the Bad Guy with a gun shoots first and kills some Rambo wanna-be idiot who thinks he can kill the Bad Guy because the Bad Guy would never shoot first.

Didn't they already die? That was reality. Unarmed people will die in any terrorist example. Yet only one armed man is supposed to turn the situation around fully and that's yourexcuse for disarming everyone?

The guy shooting back and killing terrorists would be a hero. Even if it was a lost cause at least he tried unlike you fucking pussies.

He qualified sharpshooter with the M16, so he's an expert on tactical assault teams. Don't question the expertise of somebody who got 35 out of 40 on the range or you'll be sorry.

 

[westwall]

Do you not understand that you don't get the option when qualifying?

You do not use your own magazines. You use the ones that you are given with just enough time to load some rounds into them and start firing. Magazines that are NOT combat ready because they are overused garbage.

Hell, most of the time you don't even qualify with your own weapon anymore. They simply hand you a random one from the armory that the last guy barely cleaned because he wasn't going to fire it again and you just have to deal with it.

Jams are a GIVEN on a military qualifying range, not a possibility. I am not sure if I have ever managed to fire the entire 100 rounds without at least one issue with the weapon. Last time it was particularly fun when MY SIGHT FELL OFF. The 'equipment' we have to work with is pathetic at best.

I did try to explain this. Springs wear out, sand gets in (sand ALWAYS gets in!) and jams it. Westwall comes off as a naive dilettante criticizing what he doesn't understand. These ten round and thirty round magazines are used repeatedly, daily, jamming in rounds with stripper clips and putting them out on the range to be spent and sent back to be reloaded. Double feeds, feed failures, and other malfunctions are common. This is what those of us who really served in the Army understand.

I am far from a dilettante, but I was unaware that our military would be so poorly run, as to allow the very basics to degrade in such a manner. I should have suspected based on who the POTUS is and the idiots he surrounds himself with. But I am responsible for my weapons. That means all aspects of them. Tearing down a magazine is a trivial job, and I would expect any soldier would do so to make sure his mags were clean and ready to go. Can't do anything about weak springs, but those don't occur for thousands of cycles. So most mag issues are going to be cleanliness related.

If you had any sense you would stop talking. Soldiers are brought to the range for qualification in company and battery, sometimes battalion strength. They are rodded onto the range (I'm purposely using terms you don't know to illustrate a point), and then every move on the range is regimented and supervised. Once they approach the firing line, they are given opportunity to prepare their foxhole and hasty. Then at the same time, every soldier on the line is issued a two magazines and given specific instructions not to load them or to even TOUCH them by the range NCOIC. After firing, the magazines are policed and returned to storage. No soldier possesses their own magazines and if they did, they wouldn't be allowed on the firing range. Soldiers being rodded off the range are searched for brass and ammo or any other contraband that can't be removed from the range before. Every soldier is well aware they can be court martialed for any misconduct on the range.

So there's ZERO opportunity to inspect magazines prior to firing them. They are loaded by a detail of soldiers under the supervision of an NCO and they are returned, a count ensuring that EVERY MAGAZINE has been accounted for.

Moreover, you have NO IDEA how often weak springs are a factor in firing ranges. They are used daily, repeatedly, for weeks, months, and aren't thrown out until they're actually broken. They look something like this:

And another point, I served under Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, and no president has any influence on these policies. 420,000 Army soldiers have to qualify on these ranges every 6 months, and then there are the other branches of service and federal agencies....ALL OF THEM using these same magazines.

And finally, you miss the larger point. It's unbecoming of any military service member to criticize the marksmanship of a U.S. Army soldier. Somebody who's able to knock down 32-35 out of 40 targets that pop up unpredictably between 50 and 300 meters, giving only a few seconds to acquire, aim, and fire, is somebody that I trust on the battlefield to have my back.

This is what us real combat veterans believe.

So please stop talking. Everything you say is ignorance, and offensive at that.

Had you bothered to read more than the beginning I was stating that it is sad that the military treats the weapons so poorly. That the soldiers have no ability to maintain what they are using for range qualification is ridiculous to me. As far as being rodded go's it is an old phrase having to do with a q tip shoved up your dick to check for VD. It also refers to the brass rod inserted in the bore to make sure the weapon is empty. It has many other derivations, but those are the basics.

Don't ever presume that because I didn't serve I don't know anything. You will find it embarrassing.

BTW, aren't soldiers able to buy their own mags? PMAGs can be had for 12 bucks or so. Then they would have good mags for their use that they could maintain? Are there regs against having mags? I know there are for personal weapons, but does that extend to mags as well?

Finally, I am not into PC talk. The subject of marksmanship was brought up as a qualifier that that made him an expert and that his opinion carried more weight because of that which is absolute horseshit. That's why the subject of marksmanship came up in the first place.

That last paragraph I already agreed with earlier.

And as I said, range time is heavily regulated by the range NCOIC, soldiers cannot bring their own magazines, not to be repetitive, but you seemed to miss that the first time. The reason for this is to exercise tight control and supervision on when soldiers possess live ammunition so that hundreds of soldiers can get through the process safely, up to a battalion a day. Every movement is controlled, right face, forward march, detail halt, one two! Stand at parade rest in front of your firing position but do not enter your fox hole until instructed by the range officer.

Once soldiers enter their foxholes, there are loaded magazines to their right. When instructed, they insert a magazine, release the bolt carrier, and wait, weapons pointed down range. Then when they're instructed, they rotate their selector switch from safe to semi and the range is now hot. Several NCO's pace behind the firing line supervising the soldiers, ensuring compliance with every command. All of this has a reason; accidents on the range are rare.

Are you getting the picture now?

Yeah, I get it now. I've never been on a controlled range with a mass of people with no firearms knowledge so I fully understand the need to ride herd. Thanks for the summary!

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

I did try to explain this. Springs wear out, sand gets in (sand ALWAYS gets in!) and jams it. Westwall comes off as a naive dilettante criticizing what he doesn't understand. These ten round and thirty round magazines are used repeatedly, daily, jamming in rounds with stripper clips and putting them out on the range to be spent and sent back to be reloaded. Double feeds, feed failures, and other malfunctions are common. This is what those of us who really served in the Army understand.

I am far from a dilettante, but I was unaware that our military would be so poorly run, as to allow the very basics to degrade in such a manner. I should have suspected based on who the POTUS is and the idiots he surrounds himself with. But I am responsible for my weapons. That means all aspects of them. Tearing down a magazine is a trivial job, and I would expect any soldier would do so to make sure his mags were clean and ready to go. Can't do anything about weak springs, but those don't occur for thousands of cycles. So most mag issues are going to be cleanliness related.

If you had any sense you would stop talking. Soldiers are brought to the range for qualification in company and battery, sometimes battalion strength. They are rodded onto the range (I'm purposely using terms you don't know to illustrate a point), and then every move on the range is regimented and supervised. Once they approach the firing line, they are given opportunity to prepare their foxhole and hasty. Then at the same time, every soldier on the line is issued a two magazines and given specific instructions not to load them or to even TOUCH them by the range NCOIC. After firing, the magazines are policed and returned to storage. No soldier possesses their own magazines and if they did, they wouldn't be allowed on the firing range. Soldiers being rodded off the range are searched for brass and ammo or any other contraband that can't be removed from the range before. Every soldier is well aware they can be court martialed for any misconduct on the range.

So there's ZERO opportunity to inspect magazines prior to firing them. They are loaded by a detail of soldiers under the supervision of an NCO and they are returned, a count ensuring that EVERY MAGAZINE has been accounted for.

Moreover, you have NO IDEA how often weak springs are a factor in firing ranges. They are used daily, repeatedly, for weeks, months, and aren't thrown out until they're actually broken. They look something like this:

And another point, I served under Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, and no president has any influence on these policies. 420,000 Army soldiers have to qualify on these ranges every 6 months, and then there are the other branches of service and federal agencies....ALL OF THEM using these same magazines.

And finally, you miss the larger point. It's unbecoming of any military service member to criticize the marksmanship of a U.S. Army soldier. Somebody who's able to knock down 32-35 out of 40 targets that pop up unpredictably between 50 and 300 meters, giving only a few seconds to acquire, aim, and fire, is somebody that I trust on the battlefield to have my back.

This is what us real combat veterans believe.

So please stop talking. Everything you say is ignorance, and offensive at that.

Had you bothered to read more than the beginning I was stating that it is sad that the military treats the weapons so poorly. That the soldiers have no ability to maintain what they are using for range qualification is ridiculous to me. As far as being rodded go's it is an old phrase having to do with a q tip shoved up your dick to check for VD. It also refers to the brass rod inserted in the bore to make sure the weapon is empty. It has many other derivations, but those are the basics.

Don't ever presume that because I didn't serve I don't know anything. You will find it embarrassing.

BTW, aren't soldiers able to buy their own mags? PMAGs can be had for 12 bucks or so. Then they would have good mags for their use that they could maintain? Are there regs against having mags? I know there are for personal weapons, but does that extend to mags as well?

Finally, I am not into PC talk. The subject of marksmanship was brought up as a qualifier that that made him an expert and that his opinion carried more weight because of that which is absolute horseshit. That's why the subject of marksmanship came up in the first place.

That last paragraph I already agreed with earlier.

And as I said, range time is heavily regulated by the range NCOIC, soldiers cannot bring their own magazines, not to be repetitive, but you seemed to miss that the first time. The reason for this is to exercise tight control and supervision on when soldiers possess live ammunition so that hundreds of soldiers can get through the process safely, up to a battalion a day. Every movement is controlled, right face, forward march, detail halt, one two! Stand at parade rest in front of your firing position but do not enter your fox hole until instructed by the range officer.

Once soldiers enter their foxholes, there are loaded magazines to their right. When instructed, they insert a magazine, release the bolt carrier, and wait, weapons pointed down range. Then when they're instructed, they rotate their selector switch from safe to semi and the range is now hot. Several NCO's pace behind the firing line supervising the soldiers, ensuring compliance with every command. All of this has a reason; accidents on the range are rare.

Are you getting the picture now?

Yeah, I get it now. I've never been on a controlled range with a mass of people with no firearms knowledge so I fully understand the need to ride herd. Thanks for the summary!

You're going to continue to insult Army soldiers. I guess you just can't help yourself.

 

[westwall]

I am far from a dilettante, but I was unaware that our military would be so poorly run, as to allow the very basics to degrade in such a manner. I should have suspected based on who the POTUS is and the idiots he surrounds himself with. But I am responsible for my weapons. That means all aspects of them. Tearing down a magazine is a trivial job, and I would expect any soldier would do so to make sure his mags were clean and ready to go. Can't do anything about weak springs, but those don't occur for thousands of cycles. So most mag issues are going to be cleanliness related.

If you had any sense you would stop talking. Soldiers are brought to the range for qualification in company and battery, sometimes battalion strength. They are rodded onto the range (I'm purposely using terms you don't know to illustrate a point), and then every move on the range is regimented and supervised. Once they approach the firing line, they are given opportunity to prepare their foxhole and hasty. Then at the same time, every soldier on the line is issued a two magazines and given specific instructions not to load them or to even TOUCH them by the range NCOIC. After firing, the magazines are policed and returned to storage. No soldier possesses their own magazines and if they did, they wouldn't be allowed on the firing range. Soldiers being rodded off the range are searched for brass and ammo or any other contraband that can't be removed from the range before. Every soldier is well aware they can be court martialed for any misconduct on the range.

So there's ZERO opportunity to inspect magazines prior to firing them. They are loaded by a detail of soldiers under the supervision of an NCO and they are returned, a count ensuring that EVERY MAGAZINE has been accounted for.

Moreover, you have NO IDEA how often weak springs are a factor in firing ranges. They are used daily, repeatedly, for weeks, months, and aren't thrown out until they're actually broken. They look something like this:

And another point, I served under Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, and no president has any influence on these policies. 420,000 Army soldiers have to qualify on these ranges every 6 months, and then there are the other branches of service and federal agencies....ALL OF THEM using these same magazines.

And finally, you miss the larger point. It's unbecoming of any military service member to criticize the marksmanship of a U.S. Army soldier. Somebody who's able to knock down 32-35 out of 40 targets that pop up unpredictably between 50 and 300 meters, giving only a few seconds to acquire, aim, and fire, is somebody that I trust on the battlefield to have my back.

This is what us real combat veterans believe.

So please stop talking. Everything you say is ignorance, and offensive at that.

Had you bothered to read more than the beginning I was stating that it is sad that the military treats the weapons so poorly. That the soldiers have no ability to maintain what they are using for range qualification is ridiculous to me. As far as being rodded go's it is an old phrase having to do with a q tip shoved up your dick to check for VD. It also refers to the brass rod inserted in the bore to make sure the weapon is empty. It has many other derivations, but those are the basics.

Don't ever presume that because I didn't serve I don't know anything. You will find it embarrassing.

BTW, aren't soldiers able to buy their own mags? PMAGs can be had for 12 bucks or so. Then they would have good mags for their use that they could maintain? Are there regs against having mags? I know there are for personal weapons, but does that extend to mags as well?

Finally, I am not into PC talk. The subject of marksmanship was brought up as a qualifier that that made him an expert and that his opinion carried more weight because of that which is absolute horseshit. That's why the subject of marksmanship came up in the first place.

That last paragraph I already agreed with earlier.

And as I said, range time is heavily regulated by the range NCOIC, soldiers cannot bring their own magazines, not to be repetitive, but you seemed to miss that the first time. The reason for this is to exercise tight control and supervision on when soldiers possess live ammunition so that hundreds of soldiers can get through the process safely, up to a battalion a day. Every movement is controlled, right face, forward march, detail halt, one two! Stand at parade rest in front of your firing position but do not enter your fox hole until instructed by the range officer.

Once soldiers enter their foxholes, there are loaded magazines to their right. When instructed, they insert a magazine, release the bolt carrier, and wait, weapons pointed down range. Then when they're instructed, they rotate their selector switch from safe to semi and the range is now hot. Several NCO's pace behind the firing line supervising the soldiers, ensuring compliance with every command. All of this has a reason; accidents on the range are rare.

Are you getting the picture now?

Yeah, I get it now. I've never been on a controlled range with a mass of people with no firearms knowledge so I fully understand the need to ride herd. Thanks for the summary!

You're going to continue to insult Army soldiers. I guess you just can't help yourself.

Dude. That's not an insult. I am positive the majority of soldiers going into the service are absolute beginners when it comes to firearms. I was acknowledging the prudence in keeping control like that.

 

[Missouri_Mike]

Texas gun rights group reenacts Paris massacre with 8216 armed civilian 8217 8212 and everyone still dies

Just to fucking funny for words.

"The Good Guy With A Gun" stopping "A Bad Guy With A Gun" theory was put to the test when "The Truth About Guns" decided to role-play the shooting in Paris of the Satirical Newspaper Charlie Hebdo.

The only time "The Good Guy With A Gun" lived is when he ran for his life. In every other scenario played by the Texas Gun Huggers, everybody, including idiot Good Guy died.

"The only thing that a Bad Guy with a gun is a Good Guy with a gun". Or so said Gun Manufacturer Supporter Wayne LaPierre.

Except when the Bad Guy with a gun shoots first and kills some Rambo wanna-be idiot who thinks he can kill the Bad Guy because the Bad Guy would never shoot first.

Didn't they already die? That was reality. Unarmed people will die in any terrorist example. Yet only one armed man is supposed to turn the situation around fully and that's yourexcuse for disarming everyone?

The guy shooting back and killing terrorists would be a hero. Even if it was a lost cause at least he tried unlike you fucking pussies.

He qualified sharpshooter with the M16, so he's an expert on tactical assault teams. Don't question the expertise of somebody who got 35 out of 40 on the range or you'll be sorry.

Based on your other replies I think you miss quoted me here.

 

[rockledr]

Do you not understand that you don't get the option when qualifying?

You do not use your own magazines. You use the ones that you are given with just enough time to load some rounds into them and start firing. Magazines that are NOT combat ready because they are overused garbage.

Hell, most of the time you don't even qualify with your own weapon anymore. They simply hand you a random one from the armory that the last guy barely cleaned because he wasn't going to fire it again and you just have to deal with it.

Jams are a GIVEN on a military qualifying range, not a possibility. I am not sure if I have ever managed to fire the entire 100 rounds without at least one issue with the weapon. Last time it was particularly fun when MY SIGHT FELL OFF. The 'equipment' we have to work with is pathetic at best.

I did try to explain this. Springs wear out, sand gets in (sand ALWAYS gets in!) and jams it. Westwall comes off as a naive dilettante criticizing what he doesn't understand. These ten round and thirty round magazines are used repeatedly, daily, jamming in rounds with stripper clips and putting them out on the range to be spent and sent back to be reloaded. Double feeds, feed failures, and other malfunctions are common. This is what those of us who really served in the Army understand.

I am far from a dilettante, but I was unaware that our military would be so poorly run, as to allow the very basics to degrade in such a manner. I should have suspected based on who the POTUS is and the idiots he surrounds himself with. But I am responsible for my weapons. That means all aspects of them. Tearing down a magazine is a trivial job, and I would expect any soldier would do so to make sure his mags were clean and ready to go. Can't do anything about weak springs, but those don't occur for thousands of cycles. So most mag issues are going to be cleanliness related.

If you had any sense you would stop talking. Soldiers are brought to the range for qualification in company and battery, sometimes battalion strength. They are rodded onto the range (I'm purposely using terms you don't know to illustrate a point), and then every move on the range is regimented and supervised. Once they approach the firing line, they are given opportunity to prepare their foxhole and hasty. Then at the same time, every soldier on the line is issued a two magazines and given specific instructions not to load them or to even TOUCH them by the range NCOIC. After firing, the magazines are policed and returned to storage. No soldier possesses their own magazines and if they did, they wouldn't be allowed on the firing range. Soldiers being rodded off the range are searched for brass and ammo or any other contraband that can't be removed from the range before. Every soldier is well aware they can be court martialed for any misconduct on the range.

So there's ZERO opportunity to inspect magazines prior to firing them. They are loaded by a detail of soldiers under the supervision of an NCO and they are returned, a count ensuring that EVERY MAGAZINE has been accounted for.

Moreover, you have NO IDEA how often weak springs are a factor in firing ranges. They are used daily, repeatedly, for weeks, months, and aren't thrown out until they're actually broken. They look something like this:

And another point, I served under Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, and no president has any influence on these policies. 420,000 Army soldiers have to qualify on these ranges every 6 months, and then there are the other branches of service and federal agencies....ALL OF THEM using these same magazines.

And finally, you miss the larger point. It's unbecoming of any military service member to criticize the marksmanship of a U.S. Army soldier. Somebody who's able to knock down 32-35 out of 40 targets that pop up unpredictably between 50 and 300 meters, giving only a few seconds to acquire, aim, and fire, is somebody that I trust on the battlefield to have my back.

This is what us real combat veterans believe.

So please stop talking. Everything you say is ignorance, and offensive at that.

Had you bothered to read more than the beginning I was stating that it is sad that the military treats the weapons so poorly. That the soldiers have no ability to maintain what they are using for range qualification is ridiculous to me. As far as being rodded go's it is an old phrase having to do with a q tip shoved up your dick to check for VD. It also refers to the brass rod inserted in the bore to make sure the weapon is empty. It has many other derivations, but those are the basics.

Don't ever presume that because I didn't serve I don't know anything. You will find it embarrassing.

BTW, aren't soldiers able to buy their own mags? PMAGs can be had for 12 bucks or so. Then they would have good mags for their use that they could maintain? Are there regs against having mags? I know there are for personal weapons, but does that extend to mags as well?

Finally, I am not into PC talk. The subject of marksmanship was brought up as a qualifier that that made him an expert and that his opinion carried more weight because of that which is absolute horseshit. That's why the subject of marksmanship came up in the first place.

That last paragraph I already agreed with earlier.

And as I said, range time is heavily regulated by the range NCOIC, soldiers cannot bring their own magazines, not to be repetitive, but you seemed to miss that the first time. The reason for this is to exercise tight control and supervision on when soldiers possess live ammunition so that hundreds of soldiers can get through the process safely, up to a battalion a day. Every movement is controlled, right face, forward march, detail halt, one two! Stand at parade rest in front of your firing position but do not enter your fox hole until instructed by the range officer.

Once soldiers enter their foxholes, there are loaded magazines to their right. When instructed, they insert a magazine, release the bolt carrier, and wait, weapons pointed down range. Then when they're instructed, they rotate their selector switch from safe to semi and the range is now hot. Several NCO's pace behind the firing line supervising the soldiers, ensuring compliance with every command. All of this has a reason; accidents on the range are rare.

Are you getting the picture now?

Are you talking about basic training? I retired after 23 years in the Infantry. The only time we did as you say was in basic. Each Soldier uses their own magazines, they load them also. If you can't trust a Soldier on a range how are you going to trust them in combat when the carry a loaded weapon 24/7.

If you were not infantry then maybe you did it that way. I have construction engineers conduct a range as you say, but the Infantry does it a lot different.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

Texas gun rights group reenacts Paris massacre with 8216 armed civilian 8217 8212 and everyone still dies

Just to fucking funny for words.

"The Good Guy With A Gun" stopping "A Bad Guy With A Gun" theory was put to the test when "The Truth About Guns" decided to role-play the shooting in Paris of the Satirical Newspaper Charlie Hebdo.

The only time "The Good Guy With A Gun" lived is when he ran for his life. In every other scenario played by the Texas Gun Huggers, everybody, including idiot Good Guy died.

"The only thing that a Bad Guy with a gun is a Good Guy with a gun". Or so said Gun Manufacturer Supporter Wayne LaPierre.

Except when the Bad Guy with a gun shoots first and kills some Rambo wanna-be idiot who thinks he can kill the Bad Guy because the Bad Guy would never shoot first.

Didn't they already die? That was reality. Unarmed people will die in any terrorist example. Yet only one armed man is supposed to turn the situation around fully and that's yourexcuse for disarming everyone?

The guy shooting back and killing terrorists would be a hero. Even if it was a lost cause at least he tried unlike you fucking pussies.

He qualified sharpshooter with the M16, so he's an expert on tactical assault teams. Don't question the expertise of somebody who got 35 out of 40 on the range or you'll be sorry.

Based on your other replies I think you miss quoted me here.

Not really. Westwall and I both picked up on the fact that Bravo asserted his marksmanship badge as some sort of expertise on the OP subject matter. I was just being sarcastic.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

I did try to explain this. Springs wear out, sand gets in (sand ALWAYS gets in!) and jams it. Westwall comes off as a naive dilettante criticizing what he doesn't understand. These ten round and thirty round magazines are used repeatedly, daily, jamming in rounds with stripper clips and putting them out on the range to be spent and sent back to be reloaded. Double feeds, feed failures, and other malfunctions are common. This is what those of us who really served in the Army understand.

I am far from a dilettante, but I was unaware that our military would be so poorly run, as to allow the very basics to degrade in such a manner. I should have suspected based on who the POTUS is and the idiots he surrounds himself with. But I am responsible for my weapons. That means all aspects of them. Tearing down a magazine is a trivial job, and I would expect any soldier would do so to make sure his mags were clean and ready to go. Can't do anything about weak springs, but those don't occur for thousands of cycles. So most mag issues are going to be cleanliness related.

If you had any sense you would stop talking. Soldiers are brought to the range for qualification in company and battery, sometimes battalion strength. They are rodded onto the range (I'm purposely using terms you don't know to illustrate a point), and then every move on the range is regimented and supervised. Once they approach the firing line, they are given opportunity to prepare their foxhole and hasty. Then at the same time, every soldier on the line is issued a two magazines and given specific instructions not to load them or to even TOUCH them by the range NCOIC. After firing, the magazines are policed and returned to storage. No soldier possesses their own magazines and if they did, they wouldn't be allowed on the firing range. Soldiers being rodded off the range are searched for brass and ammo or any other contraband that can't be removed from the range before. Every soldier is well aware they can be court martialed for any misconduct on the range.

So there's ZERO opportunity to inspect magazines prior to firing them. They are loaded by a detail of soldiers under the supervision of an NCO and they are returned, a count ensuring that EVERY MAGAZINE has been accounted for.

Moreover, you have NO IDEA how often weak springs are a factor in firing ranges. They are used daily, repeatedly, for weeks, months, and aren't thrown out until they're actually broken. They look something like this:

And another point, I served under Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, and no president has any influence on these policies. 420,000 Army soldiers have to qualify on these ranges every 6 months, and then there are the other branches of service and federal agencies....ALL OF THEM using these same magazines.

And finally, you miss the larger point. It's unbecoming of any military service member to criticize the marksmanship of a U.S. Army soldier. Somebody who's able to knock down 32-35 out of 40 targets that pop up unpredictably between 50 and 300 meters, giving only a few seconds to acquire, aim, and fire, is somebody that I trust on the battlefield to have my back.

This is what us real combat veterans believe.

So please stop talking. Everything you say is ignorance, and offensive at that.

Had you bothered to read more than the beginning I was stating that it is sad that the military treats the weapons so poorly. That the soldiers have no ability to maintain what they are using for range qualification is ridiculous to me. As far as being rodded go's it is an old phrase having to do with a q tip shoved up your dick to check for VD. It also refers to the brass rod inserted in the bore to make sure the weapon is empty. It has many other derivations, but those are the basics.

Don't ever presume that because I didn't serve I don't know anything. You will find it embarrassing.

BTW, aren't soldiers able to buy their own mags? PMAGs can be had for 12 bucks or so. Then they would have good mags for their use that they could maintain? Are there regs against having mags? I know there are for personal weapons, but does that extend to mags as well?

Finally, I am not into PC talk. The subject of marksmanship was brought up as a qualifier that that made him an expert and that his opinion carried more weight because of that which is absolute horseshit. That's why the subject of marksmanship came up in the first place.

That last paragraph I already agreed with earlier.

And as I said, range time is heavily regulated by the range NCOIC, soldiers cannot bring their own magazines, not to be repetitive, but you seemed to miss that the first time. The reason for this is to exercise tight control and supervision on when soldiers possess live ammunition so that hundreds of soldiers can get through the process safely, up to a battalion a day. Every movement is controlled, right face, forward march, detail halt, one two! Stand at parade rest in front of your firing position but do not enter your fox hole until instructed by the range officer.

Once soldiers enter their foxholes, there are loaded magazines to their right. When instructed, they insert a magazine, release the bolt carrier, and wait, weapons pointed down range. Then when they're instructed, they rotate their selector switch from safe to semi and the range is now hot. Several NCO's pace behind the firing line supervising the soldiers, ensuring compliance with every command. All of this has a reason; accidents on the range are rare.

Are you getting the picture now?

Are you talking about basic training? I retired after 23 years in the Infantry. The only time we did as you say was in basic. Each Soldier uses their own magazines, they load them also. If you can't trust a Soldier on a range how are you going to trust them in combat when the carry a loaded weapon 24/7.

If you were not infantry then maybe you did it that way. I have construction engineers conduct a range as you say, but the Infantry does it a lot different.

I was in the field artillery, 18th attached to the 82nd Airborne in Fort Bragg. It matters not because the range SOP is the same for everyone. And having qualified at Fort Jackson, Fort Sill, Fort Bragg, and in Korea (we shot at a paper target with pictures of target silhouettes at 50 meters there), I can tell you the same SOP is in every Army base.

The range is exactly as you said, not trusting soldiers. Too many accidents occurred and now they're all treated like incompetent babies. For real.

 

[zeke]

The range is exactly as you said, not trusting soldiers. Too many accidents occurred and now they're all treated like incompetent babies. For real.

The military has tight, strict controls over weapons. And you don't seem to have a problem with that.
But let tighter, stricter control of weapons and ammo be mentioned for civilians, and it's all out war.
Why the fuck is that?
Did the soldiers give up their 2nd rights when they enlisted? Shouldn't they be able to keep a personal weapon to protect themselves from other soldiers? Or when they are off base? WTF is going on that weapons have to be so tightly controlled by the military

We trust lots of civilian young men to have the weapon of their dreams. People like you actively encourage young men to arm themselves. And people like you trust them to do the correct thing with their weapons all the time.

Why doesn't the military fell the same way. What does the military know about young men and guns that the civilians should learn from?

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

The range is exactly as you said, not trusting soldiers. Too many accidents occurred and now they're all treated like incompetent babies. For real.

The military has tight, strict controls over weapons. And you don't seem to have a problem with that.
But let tighter, stricter control of weapons and ammo be mentioned for civilians, and it's all out war.
Why the fuck is that?
Did the soldiers give up their 2nd rights when they enlisted? Shouldn't they be able to keep a personal weapon to protect themselves from other soldiers? Or when they are off base? WTF is going on that weapons have to be so tightly controlled by the military

We trust lots of civilian young men to have the weapon of their dreams. People like you actively encourage young men to arm themselves. And people like you trust them to do the correct thing with their weapons all the time.

Why doesn't the military fell the same way. What does the military know about young men and guns that the civilians should learn from?

Did you read my post? Of course I have a problem with that. Army bases are perfect gun control zones, much to Major Hassad's advantage when he shot several soldiers in Fort Hood. They had absolutely no defense, whatsoever. Much of the public think soldiers are armed and a military base is the last place for a terrorist attack. The truth is quite the opposite. It's like Rockledr said, you have to trust your soldiers. We don't trust ours.

 

[rockledr]

I am far from a dilettante, but I was unaware that our military would be so poorly run, as to allow the very basics to degrade in such a manner. I should have suspected based on who the POTUS is and the idiots he surrounds himself with. But I am responsible for my weapons. That means all aspects of them. Tearing down a magazine is a trivial job, and I would expect any soldier would do so to make sure his mags were clean and ready to go. Can't do anything about weak springs, but those don't occur for thousands of cycles. So most mag issues are going to be cleanliness related.

If you had any sense you would stop talking. Soldiers are brought to the range for qualification in company and battery, sometimes battalion strength. They are rodded onto the range (I'm purposely using terms you don't know to illustrate a point), and then every move on the range is regimented and supervised. Once they approach the firing line, they are given opportunity to prepare their foxhole and hasty. Then at the same time, every soldier on the line is issued a two magazines and given specific instructions not to load them or to even TOUCH them by the range NCOIC. After firing, the magazines are policed and returned to storage. No soldier possesses their own magazines and if they did, they wouldn't be allowed on the firing range. Soldiers being rodded off the range are searched for brass and ammo or any other contraband that can't be removed from the range before. Every soldier is well aware they can be court martialed for any misconduct on the range.

So there's ZERO opportunity to inspect magazines prior to firing them. They are loaded by a detail of soldiers under the supervision of an NCO and they are returned, a count ensuring that EVERY MAGAZINE has been accounted for.

Moreover, you have NO IDEA how often weak springs are a factor in firing ranges. They are used daily, repeatedly, for weeks, months, and aren't thrown out until they're actually broken. They look something like this:

And another point, I served under Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, and no president has any influence on these policies. 420,000 Army soldiers have to qualify on these ranges every 6 months, and then there are the other branches of service and federal agencies....ALL OF THEM using these same magazines.

And finally, you miss the larger point. It's unbecoming of any military service member to criticize the marksmanship of a U.S. Army soldier. Somebody who's able to knock down 32-35 out of 40 targets that pop up unpredictably between 50 and 300 meters, giving only a few seconds to acquire, aim, and fire, is somebody that I trust on the battlefield to have my back.

This is what us real combat veterans believe.

So please stop talking. Everything you say is ignorance, and offensive at that.

Had you bothered to read more than the beginning I was stating that it is sad that the military treats the weapons so poorly. That the soldiers have no ability to maintain what they are using for range qualification is ridiculous to me. As far as being rodded go's it is an old phrase having to do with a q tip shoved up your dick to check for VD. It also refers to the brass rod inserted in the bore to make sure the weapon is empty. It has many other derivations, but those are the basics.

Don't ever presume that because I didn't serve I don't know anything. You will find it embarrassing.

BTW, aren't soldiers able to buy their own mags? PMAGs can be had for 12 bucks or so. Then they would have good mags for their use that they could maintain? Are there regs against having mags? I know there are for personal weapons, but does that extend to mags as well?

Finally, I am not into PC talk. The subject of marksmanship was brought up as a qualifier that that made him an expert and that his opinion carried more weight because of that which is absolute horseshit. That's why the subject of marksmanship came up in the first place.

That last paragraph I already agreed with earlier.

And as I said, range time is heavily regulated by the range NCOIC, soldiers cannot bring their own magazines, not to be repetitive, but you seemed to miss that the first time. The reason for this is to exercise tight control and supervision on when soldiers possess live ammunition so that hundreds of soldiers can get through the process safely, up to a battalion a day. Every movement is controlled, right face, forward march, detail halt, one two! Stand at parade rest in front of your firing position but do not enter your fox hole until instructed by the range officer.

Once soldiers enter their foxholes, there are loaded magazines to their right. When instructed, they insert a magazine, release the bolt carrier, and wait, weapons pointed down range. Then when they're instructed, they rotate their selector switch from safe to semi and the range is now hot. Several NCO's pace behind the firing line supervising the soldiers, ensuring compliance with every command. All of this has a reason; accidents on the range are rare.

Are you getting the picture now?

Are you talking about basic training? I retired after 23 years in the Infantry. The only time we did as you say was in basic. Each Soldier uses their own magazines, they load them also. If you can't trust a Soldier on a range how are you going to trust them in combat when the carry a loaded weapon 24/7.

If you were not infantry then maybe you did it that way. I have construction engineers conduct a range as you say, but the Infantry does it a lot different.

I was in the field artillery, 18th attached to the 82nd Airborne in Fort Bragg. It matters not because the range SOP is the same for everyone. And having qualified at Fort Jackson, Fort Sill, Fort Bragg, and in Korea (we shot at a paper target with pictures of target silhouettes at 50 meters there), I can tell you the same SOP is in every Army base.

The range is exactly as you said, not trusting soldiers. Too many accidents occurred and now they're all treated like incompetent babies. For real.

Not to argue but the SOP is not the same for everyone. I just retired a short time ago. I was a 1SG for 5 years. You are giving people the wrong idea about the military. Not all Soldiers are treated as babies on the range. Don't give people who haven't served wrong information. These people are taking your word for it as they haven't served and want to know how things are done.

My avatar picture is me. If you want I can give you more info about me to verify I know what I am talking about. Bottom line I am not a poser or keyboard warrior. I just want the correct info give to our friends here on USMB.

If you need proof of who I am that is me in my avatar.

 

[zeke]

Much of the public think soldiers are armed and a military base is the last place for a terrorist attack. The truth is quite the opposite. It's like Rockledr said, you have to trust your soldiers. We don't trust ours.[/QUOTE]



No, what the military doesn't trust is putting loaded weapons in the hands of young men who are being trained as soldiers when they are not in combat situations or on a gun range.

Now who has more experience with guns and young men than the military? No one is the answer. My dear departed father was a Korean War vet. I recall him talking about guns being in the armory. If I am not mistaken, the military has ALWAYS kept weapons in an armory and kept weapons out of the hands of young men who didn't need to have a weapon at that time.. The military has NEVER allowed young men to keep personal arms unless they were in a war zone. The military has forever kept strict controls over weapons and ammo.

This has nothing to do with the military not trusting our soldiers. No matter how bad you want it to be that way.
Cause lets face it, the military knows that young men with loaded guns, loads of temper and testosterone, fueled by alcohol is about as deadly as a combination you will ever put together.

I sure am glad that our military is MUCH smarter about young men and guns than the general population. And certainly much smarter that you about young men and guns.

 

[ClosedCaption]

Texas gun rights group reenacts Paris massacre with 8216 armed civilian 8217 8212 and everyone still dies

Just to fucking funny for words.

"The Good Guy With A Gun" stopping "A Bad Guy With A Gun" theory was put to the test when "The Truth About Guns" decided to role-play the shooting in Paris of the Satirical Newspaper Charlie Hebdo.

The only time "The Good Guy With A Gun" lived is when he ran for his life. In every other scenario played by the Texas Gun Huggers, everybody, including idiot Good Guy died.

"The only thing that a Bad Guy with a gun is a Good Guy with a gun". Or so said Gun Manufacturer Supporter Wayne LaPierre.

Except when the Bad Guy with a gun shoots first and kills some Rambo wanna-be idiot who thinks he can kill the Bad Guy because the Bad Guy would never shoot first.