Secession from Obama’s America

[goldcatt]

Like I said, a few nutters talking a big game.

 

[namvet]

spoken like true communists

 

[ihopehefails]

[

To have a shot at successfully seceding, it is likely that a state must first have a large majority of its population that is interested in independence, who are self-reliant, who as a group have not been used to taking more than their fair share of federal tax dollars,

.

Hey genius, here's a list of how much the states each get back for each dollar of federal taxes they pay in:

The Tax Foundation - Federal Spending Received Per Dollar of Taxes Paid by State, 2005

So why are all the states you mentioned in the bottom half of that list?

This is easily dismisable because most of those states are the most sparse in the union so its natural that the amount of money collected will be less and because of that its possible that if you spend the same amount in NY vs Nebraska then the dollar spent vs dollar received will be higher.

If you notice that red states with more people the dollar spend vs dollar received ratio becomes closer to a 1 to 1 ratio.

Even so, this entire attitude of yours that money buys allegiance reflects what a lot of us have been saying that these welfare scams are nothing more than an attempt by the government to control us through creating dependency on the government.

 

[Navy1960]

There is one thing that keeps any state from leaving the Union and that is decision by the USSC made after the civil war and based not on the constitution but rather the articles of confederation.

Texas v. White

The Union of the States never was a purely artificial and arbitrary relation. It began among the Colonies, and grew out of common origin, mutual sympathies, kindred principles, similar interests, and geographical relations. It was confirmed and strengthened by the necessities of war, and received definite form and character and sanction from the Articles of Confederation. By these, the Union was solemnly declared to "be perpetual." And when these Articles were found to be inadequate to the exigencies of the country, the Constitution was ordained "to form a more perfect Union." It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these words. What can be indissoluble if a perpetual Union, made more perfect, is not? Justice Chase

Texas v. White - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now while some may say a state cannot leave the Union there is nothing in the constitutiuon that would preclude a state from doing so should they so choose. Personally I don't see this as a good option for many reasons, among them how do you define the constitutional rights of that minority of people that wish to remain American citizens? , Do you deprive them of property and liberty, and send them to another state once you have become a seperate nation? The vast majority of those citizens will not have the financial means to make such a move , so the burden will be upon the new nation aka state to foot that bill. Then you have the issue of being welcomed into the world community, where does your new nation stand in the world community, defense needs, etc etc etc. The founding fathers gave us a method by which we can change this great nation we live in and that is the power of our vote, and rather than over the years the apathy associated with it, if you want to have true change for this great nation we live in, then advocate to remove those people who have made it their lifes work to sit in a chair in Washington D.C. to legislate without listing to those they work for regardless of party. Begin to vote for the person that best represents the ideals of this nation and not the TEAM, that is why we have lost our way. Some would rather hold their noses and vote for the team member than the person best suited for the job and this must stop. Let me give you a small example, of this, we have Senators and Congressmen that represent states and districts and the vast majority of them on whatever legislation, you pick, express to them their wishes in poll after poll and townhall after town hall how they wish them to vote, however once back in Washington D.C. these esteemed individuals forget that they are there to represent that expressed desire and vote for the TEAM anyway. You want this to stop, then STOP VOTING FOR THEM!!!!!!! (Republican or Democrat) One more thing, and this is not a slight against the President, however when you run on the mantra of "CHANGE" think for a moment all of you who voted for him how someone who is part of that culture in Washington D.C. was ever going to effect real change!.... Then you will begin to see, that when you vote for an insider regardless of party, don't expect that the things you wish , be it healthcare reform, defense, whatever to really happen, because they won't.

 

[namvet]

could we have a civil war on your hands liberals ???? i do hope so

 

[goldcatt]

could we have a civil war on your hands liberals ???? i do hope so

Don't have to be a liberal to know the whole idea is crazy. But thanks for playing.

 

[goldcatt]

There is one thing that keeps any state from leaving the Union and that is decision by the USSC made after the civil war and based not on the constitution but rather the articles of confederation.

Texas v. White

The Union of the States never was a purely artificial and arbitrary relation. It began among the Colonies, and grew out of common origin, mutual sympathies, kindred principles, similar interests, and geographical relations. It was confirmed and strengthened by the necessities of war, and received definite form and character and sanction from the Articles of Confederation. By these, the Union was solemnly declared to "be perpetual." And when these Articles were found to be inadequate to the exigencies of the country, the Constitution was ordained "to form a more perfect Union." It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these words. What can be indissoluble if a perpetual Union, made more perfect, is not? Justice Chase

Texas v. White - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now while some may say a state cannot leave the Union there is nothing in the constitutiuon that would preclude a state from doing so should they so choose. Personally I don't see this as a good option for many reasons, among them how do you define the constitutional rights of that minority of people that wish to remain American citizens? , Do you deprive them of property and liberty, and send them to another state once you have become a seperate nation? The vast majority of those citizens will not have the financial means to make such a move , so the burden will be upon the new nation aka state to foot that bill. Then you have the issue of being welcomed into the world community, where does your new nation stand in the world community, defense needs, etc etc etc. The founding fathers gave us a method by which we can change this great nation we live in and that is the power of our vote, and rather than over the years the apathy associated with it, if you want to have true change for this great nation we live in, then advocate to remove those people who have made it their lifes work to sit in a chair in Washington D.C. to legislate without listing to those they work for regardless of party. Begin to vote for the person that best represents the ideals of this nation and not the TEAM, that is why we have lost our way. Some would rather hold their noses and vote for the team member than the person best suited for the job and this must stop. Let me give you a small example, of this, we have Senators and Congressmen that represent states and districts and the vast majority of them on whatever legislation, you pick, express to them their wishes in poll after poll and townhall after town hall how they wish them to vote, however once back in Washington D.C. these esteemed individuals forget that they are there to represent that expressed desire and vote for the TEAM anyway. You want this to stop, then STOP VOTING FOR THEM!!!!!!! (Republican or Democrat) One more thing, and this is not a slight against the President, however when you run on the mantra of "CHANGE" think for a moment all of you who voted for him how someone who is part of that culture in Washington D.C. was ever going to effect real change!.... Then you will begin to see, that when you vote for an insider regardless of party, don't expect that the things you wish , be it healthcare reform, defense, whatever to really happen, because they won't.

Whether States have the theoretical legal right to leave the Union is irrelevant, your points on the practical issues are excellent. It's not going to happen.

The problem isn't with government, it's with politics. Too many people confuse the two. Our Federal Republic is sound, but the political system that runs the show needs a massive overhaul starting with the parties and ending with the people. Vote out incumbents, lobby for tight limits on campaign money and vote ability, integrity and skill instead of party. You'll see a change without any need for violence.

Of course a few idiots may actually WANT violence, but the rest of us understand pitting American against American isn't the best way to resolve our problems.

 

[namvet]

could we have a civil war on your hands liberals ???? i do hope so

Don't have to be a liberal to know the whole idea is crazy. But thanks for playing.

my war is over. yours is just beginning

 

[Yukon]

Politically America is ruled by the Negro, financially she is ruled by the ZOG.

 

[WillowTree]

The biggest problem with this thread title ... and why I call bullshit on it ...


... by seceding, they are taking the American spirit with them, because our countries here were founded by secession and rebellion, not by conformity and dictatorship.

I'm with you, it goddamn obama's America.

 

[WillowTree]

Lets hear it for the whiny little schoolgirls....

They lost the last two elections and American no longer wants to play by their rules. What do they do?

They pout and scream that they don't want to play anymore and are leaving the union.

And they have the nerve to call themselves the "Real" Americans

they do everything they can to defeat your sorry leechy asses, that's what they do.

 

[Navy1960]

It does raise an interesting question though, at what point does out of control spending, power grabs, and expanding Federal Govt. get to the point where it spurs people to action? To the progressive , they would say, great we are finally changing the nation into their vision, to the conservative it is a direction they would say, that direction does not reflect the United States of America rather it reflects a vision of of other well known and less than stellar nations, the former Soviet Union comes to mind. To the Independant, it means that the people in power do not have their best interest at heart and need to be replaced in order secure a future for our children and grandchildren. While we all share a sense of what is good for nation from a moral standpoint well at least most of us, in that we don't wish to see people starving, or dying of disease, or not have any hope. It is in the end how we address those issues that will define us. I have always thought that you can take the best ideas from 2 people and make a house stronger than simply going on your own and demanding everyone like your vision. That is the essesance of what we are SUPPOSED to be about, honest debate, and in that debate to reach a conclusion that best reflects the desires of ALL of US not just some of US.

 

[namvet]

The biggest problem with this thread title ... and why I call bullshit on it ...


... by seceding, they are taking the American spirit with them, because our countries here were founded by secession and rebellion, not by conformity and dictatorship.

I'm with you, it goddamn obama's America.

 

[ihopehefails]

There is one thing that keeps any state from leaving the Union and that is decision by the USSC made after the civil war and based not on the constitution but rather the articles of confederation.

Texas v. White

The Union of the States never was a purely artificial and arbitrary relation. It began among the Colonies, and grew out of common origin, mutual sympathies, kindred principles, similar interests, and geographical relations. It was confirmed and strengthened by the necessities of war, and received definite form and character and sanction from the Articles of Confederation. By these, the Union was solemnly declared to "be perpetual." And when these Articles were found to be inadequate to the exigencies of the country, the Constitution was ordained "to form a more perfect Union." It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these words. What can be indissoluble if a perpetual Union, made more perfect, is not? Justice Chase

Texas v. White - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now while some may say a state cannot leave the Union there is nothing in the constitutiuon that would preclude a state from doing so should they so choose. Personally I don't see this as a good option for many reasons, among them how do you define the constitutional rights of that minority of people that wish to remain American citizens? , Do you deprive them of property and liberty, and send them to another state once you have become a seperate nation? The vast majority of those citizens will not have the financial means to make such a move , so the burden will be upon the new nation aka state to foot that bill. Then you have the issue of being welcomed into the world community, where does your new nation stand in the world community, defense needs, etc etc etc. The founding fathers gave us a method by which we can change this great nation we live in and that is the power of our vote, and rather than over the years the apathy associated with it, if you want to have true change for this great nation we live in, then advocate to remove those people who have made it their lifes work to sit in a chair in Washington D.C. to legislate without listing to those they work for regardless of party. Begin to vote for the person that best represents the ideals of this nation and not the TEAM, that is why we have lost our way. Some would rather hold their noses and vote for the team member than the person best suited for the job and this must stop. Let me give you a small example, of this, we have Senators and Congressmen that represent states and districts and the vast majority of them on whatever legislation, you pick, express to them their wishes in poll after poll and townhall after town hall how they wish them to vote, however once back in Washington D.C. these esteemed individuals forget that they are there to represent that expressed desire and vote for the TEAM anyway. You want this to stop, then STOP VOTING FOR THEM!!!!!!! (Republican or Democrat) One more thing, and this is not a slight against the President, however when you run on the mantra of "CHANGE" think for a moment all of you who voted for him how someone who is part of that culture in Washington D.C. was ever going to effect real change!.... Then you will begin to see, that when you vote for an insider regardless of party, don't expect that the things you wish , be it healthcare reform, defense, whatever to really happen, because they won't.

If that is the reason why sucession is illegal then its a bullshit reason because the idea that this is a perpetual union is not written in the constitution and the powers delegated to it do not include preventing a state from leaving. The fact is is that the states have all the powers in our system minus a few granted to the federal government that deal with international diplomacy, war, and trade and since states are only prohibited from doing things granted to the federal government and prohibited to the states in the constitution then you have to show somehwhere in the constitution where it says "states can't leave" and that line doesn't exist.

 

[goldcatt]

It does raise an interesting question though, at what point does out of control spending, power grabs, and expanding Federal Govt. get to the point where it spurs people to action? To the progressive , they would say, great we are finally changing the nation into their vision, to the conservative it is a direction they would say, that direction does not reflect the United States of America rather it reflects a vision of of other well known and less than stellar nations, the former Soviet Union comes to mind. To the Independant, it means that the people in power do not have their best interest at heart and need to be replaced in order secure a future for our children and grandchildren. While we all share a sense of what is good for nation from a moral standpoint well at least most of us, in that we don't wish to see people starving, or dying of disease, or not have any hope. It is in the end how we address those issues that will define us. I have always thought that you can take the best ideas from 2 people and make a house stronger than simply going on your own and demanding everyone like your vision. That is the essesance of what we are SUPPOSED to be about, honest debate, and in that debate to reach a conclusion that best reflects the desires of ALL of US not just some of US.

The US is at heart a centrist nation, whatever the partisan hacks may try to tell you. And the pendulum has always swung back and forth between liberal and conservative over time to keep that balance. At any given time, the government is enacting policies that are going to go against the desires of some greater or lesser portion of the people. That's reality no matter who wins an election.

But you're right about honest debate being necessary. The entire system was set up to encourage just such debate from several angles, before it was hijacked by money and partisan hacks more interested in tactics than policy. I don't care where an idea comes from, I care that it's a good one. Maybe that's because I prefer to focus on solving the problem rather than blaming someone for it. Idoeological purity is fine as a theory on paper, but it doesn't create a job or protect a citizen. Why is that so hard for the extremists to understand?

 

[ihopehefails]

It does raise an interesting question though, at what point does out of control spending, power grabs, and expanding Federal Govt. get to the point where it spurs people to action? To the progressive , they would say, great we are finally changing the nation into their vision, to the conservative it is a direction they would say, that direction does not reflect the United States of America rather it reflects a vision of of other well known and less than stellar nations, the former Soviet Union comes to mind. To the Independant, it means that the people in power do not have their best interest at heart and need to be replaced in order secure a future for our children and grandchildren. While we all share a sense of what is good for nation from a moral standpoint well at least most of us, in that we don't wish to see people starving, or dying of disease, or not have any hope. It is in the end how we address those issues that will define us. I have always thought that you can take the best ideas from 2 people and make a house stronger than simply going on your own and demanding everyone like your vision. That is the essesance of what we are SUPPOSED to be about, honest debate, and in that debate to reach a conclusion that best reflects the desires of ALL of US not just some of US.

I actually like to think of our nation as an apartment complex where each apartment (state) can be decorated by the owner's personal decision but when something goes down where the entire apartment complex is needed then each separate and different apartment bands together under the landlord authority (federal government) to stop it.

 

[NYcarbineer]

The biggest problem with this thread title ... and why I call bullshit on it ...


... by seceding, they are taking the American spirit with them, because our countries here were founded by secession and rebellion, not by conformity and dictatorship.

The country was founded on the principle of national unity. Otherwise the founders would have simply been content to form 13 countries.

 

[NYcarbineer]

It's been fascinating over the last year to see conservatives abandon Lincoln in favor of Jefferson Davis.

 

[ihopehefails]

It does raise an interesting question though, at what point does out of control spending, power grabs, and expanding Federal Govt. get to the point where it spurs people to action? To the progressive , they would say, great we are finally changing the nation into their vision, to the conservative it is a direction they would say, that direction does not reflect the United States of America rather it reflects a vision of of other well known and less than stellar nations, the former Soviet Union comes to mind. To the Independant, it means that the people in power do not have their best interest at heart and need to be replaced in order secure a future for our children and grandchildren. While we all share a sense of what is good for nation from a moral standpoint well at least most of us, in that we don't wish to see people starving, or dying of disease, or not have any hope. It is in the end how we address those issues that will define us. I have always thought that you can take the best ideas from 2 people and make a house stronger than simply going on your own and demanding everyone like your vision. That is the essesance of what we are SUPPOSED to be about, honest debate, and in that debate to reach a conclusion that best reflects the desires of ALL of US not just some of US.

The US is at heart a centrist nation, whatever the partisan hacks may try to tell you. And the pendulum has always swung back and forth between liberal and conservative over time to keep that balance. At any given time, the government is enacting policies that are going to go against the desires of some greater or lesser portion of the people. That's reality no matter who wins an election.

But you're right about honest debate being necessary. The entire system was set up to encourage just such debate from several angles, before it was hijacked by money and partisan hacks more interested in tactics than policy. I don't care where an idea comes from, I care that it's a good one. Maybe that's because I prefer to focus on solving the problem rather than blaming someone for it. Idoeological purity is fine as a theory on paper, but it doesn't create a job or protect a citizen. Why is that so hard for the extremists to understand?

How is having an opinion make someone an extremist? Most people like peperoni on their pizza but a few "extremist" like anchovis. No one ever tells the guy who likes anchovis that he shouldn't like them because most other people like peperoni so why do "extremist" get told that they can't have their opinion about things because their opinion is outside the realm of mainstream thought.

 

[namvet]

It does raise an interesting question though, at what point does out of control spending, power grabs, and expanding Federal Govt. get to the point where it spurs people to action? To the progressive , they would say, great we are finally changing the nation into their vision, to the conservative it is a direction they would say, that direction does not reflect the United States of America rather it reflects a vision of of other well known and less than stellar nations, the former Soviet Union comes to mind. To the Independant, it means that the people in power do not have their best interest at heart and need to be replaced in order secure a future for our children and grandchildren. While we all share a sense of what is good for nation from a moral standpoint well at least most of us, in that we don't wish to see people starving, or dying of disease, or not have any hope. It is in the end how we address those issues that will define us. I have always thought that you can take the best ideas from 2 people and make a house stronger than simply going on your own and demanding everyone like your vision. That is the essesance of what we are SUPPOSED to be about, honest debate, and in that debate to reach a conclusion that best reflects the desires of ALL of US not just some of US.

I actually like to think of our nation as an apartment complex where each apartment (state) can be decorated by the owner's personal decision but when something goes down where the entire apartment complex is needed then each separate and different apartment bands together under the landlord authority (federal government) to stop it.

have another drink. your half way there kid