"SAY GOODBYE REPUBLICANS" if you pull this shit, might as well eliminate the party...

[Foxfyre]

All republicans need to is provide a reason to vote for them.....should be easy

Sure. They could give them the same reason the Democrats do, i.e. a ton of empty promises of what big government is going to do for them, give to them, arrange for them. The fact that such promises are always dangled juuuuuuuuust out of reach doesn't phase those who are thrown a bone now and then to keep them quiet. And hopeful for more.

But let's say the GOP does that. What does that accomplish other than a one party system populated by professional politicians and bureaucrats who don't really give a damn about anybody so long as they can fool the people long enough to acquire their power, prestige, influence, and massive personal wealth.

Obama has managed to push the gimme sector over the 50% mark during the last 5 years. More than 50% of the population now receives at least some kind of benefit from the federal government whether it is their total support or food stamps or a cell phone. It is very difficult for folks to give up even a meager and/or essentially meaningless benefit once they have it when there is no assurance that it will be replaced with something better in the private sector.

So the Democrats herd more and more hapless government addicts onto the plantation and solidify their power despite growing discontent as promise after promise is broken. But the politicans and bureaucrats don't care. They'll have theirs and will be long gone before it all hits the fan.

And we want the Republicans to do that too just to get into office? Why? Why not just disband them and be honest that we would then be the one-party system that would result?

Fine Republicans....don't want to get the Hispanic vote through big government? Go for it

Show Hispanics the wonder of free market capitalism and funnel jobs into their neighborhoods. They will vote Republucan forever

What is stopping you?

Count that as another point made that went flying right over RW's head.

 

[rightwinger]

Sure. They could give them the same reason the Democrats do, i.e. a ton of empty promises of what big government is going to do for them, give to them, arrange for them. The fact that such promises are always dangled juuuuuuuuust out of reach doesn't phase those who are thrown a bone now and then to keep them quiet. And hopeful for more.

But let's say the GOP does that. What does that accomplish other than a one party system populated by professional politicians and bureaucrats who don't really give a damn about anybody so long as they can fool the people long enough to acquire their power, prestige, influence, and massive personal wealth.

Obama has managed to push the gimme sector over the 50% mark during the last 5 years. More than 50% of the population now receives at least some kind of benefit from the federal government whether it is their total support or food stamps or a cell phone. It is very difficult for folks to give up even a meager and/or essentially meaningless benefit once they have it when there is no assurance that it will be replaced with something better in the private sector.

So the Democrats herd more and more hapless government addicts onto the plantation and solidify their power despite growing discontent as promise after promise is broken. But the politicans and bureaucrats don't care. They'll have theirs and will be long gone before it all hits the fan.

And we want the Republicans to do that too just to get into office? Why? Why not just disband them and be honest that we would then be the one-party system that would result?

Fine Republicans....don't want to get the Hispanic vote through big government? Go for it

Show Hispanics the wonder of free market capitalism and funnel jobs into their neighborhoods. They will vote Republucan forever

What is stopping you?

Count that as another point made that went flying right over RW's head.

Not at all........Republicans can't keep shouting at the rain

Sooner or later they have to show working Americans that they give a shit about anyone but the rich. Calling people lazy, freeloaders, class envy, redistribution of wealth....whatever the buzz word of the day is

Until Republucans can start to define how they will make people's lives better

They will fail

 

[Amelia]

Gotta love the cocky Dems.

They get the White House in a set of circumstances they won't be able to duplicate and the president's appeal is dwindling, they squander the Congress, the Senate is in jeopardy, Republicans swept the state houses in 2010 and have the wind at their back for 2014, but Dems are full of oh so helpful advice for us.

Look after yourselves, guys.

 

[JohnL.Burke]

The establishment of both parities both want some sort of amnesty. The DNC wants more votes and the GOP wants a cheap work force. Neither party is pure of political motive. My biggest fear is that the left will help the hispanic community in the same way they "helped" the black community. Showering the Hispanic community with empty platitudes and substandard schools is going to force the illegal Hispanic community further in the shadows than they are already. Neither party has the answer of course since getting "votes" and "workers" are far more important than fixing any problem. For those of us who not blinded by hyper-partisanship know that both parties are corrupt, self serving and detached from the American people.
What I would propose is to support laws that make it illegal for companies to hire illegal aliens. This would include jail terms and astronomically high fines. In other words, get rid of the magnet. I would also secure the border with the help of high tech surveillance (I love drones! I want to marry one! Don't judge me!). Lastly, once we fixed the illegal's job magnet and border I would allow the people already here to stay (which is my least favorite part of this plan but I'm not going to go chasing 11 million illegals). This is my plan. You can tell it's a good plan because everybody will find something to hate about it. The establishment entrenched in the GOP and DNC are both going to hate my plan. As far as I'm concerned, that is a good sign.

 

[Statistikhengst]

The establishment of both parities both want some sort of amnesty. The DNC wants more votes and the GOP wants a cheap work force. Neither party is pure of political motive. My biggest fear is that the left will help the hispanic community in the same way they "helped" the black community. Showering the Hispanic community with empty platitudes and substandard schools is going to force the illegal Hispanic community further in the shadows than they are already. Neither party has the answer of course since getting "votes" and "workers" are far more important than fixing any problem. For those of us who not blinded by hyper-partisanship know that both parties are corrupt, self serving and detached from the American people.

What I would propose is to support laws that make it illegal for companies to hire illegal aliens. This would include jail terms and astronomically high fines. In other words, get rid of the magnet. I would also secure the border with the help of high tech surveillance (I love drones! I want to marry one! Don't judge me!). Lastly, once we fixed the illegal's job magnet and border I would allow the people already here to stay (which is my least favorite part of this plan but I'm not going to go chasing 11 million illegals). This is my plan. You can tell it's a good plan because everybody will find something to hate about it. The establishment entrenched in the GOP and DNC are both going to hate my plan. As far as I'm concerned, that is a good sign.

Nice posting in many ways, and well written.

The bolded: those laws already exist. It is a matter of

a.) finding such
b.) enforcing

 

[Statistikhengst]

Reach honestly to women, Hispanics, and minorities is the path to follow for the GOP.

Heavens knows the opposite has not worked.

It's sensible people like you that make me miss Gerald Ford, who was a very sensible president thrown into the ring under the worst possible of circumstances.

Were the GOP to have a candidate who thinks as you do, I think he or she could win the full house of cards.

 

[rightwinger]

Gotta love the cocky Dems.

They get the White House in a set of circumstances they won't be able to duplicate and the president's appeal is dwindling, they squander the Congress, the Senate is in jeopardy, Republicans swept the state houses in 2010 and have the wind at their back for 2014, but Dems are full of oh so helpful advice for us.

Look after yourselves, guys.

Actually, the Electoral College is getting to the point where Republicans can no longer win the White House. Before the election even starts the Dems have a huge lead in Elecoral votes

Lose the Hispanic vote any more and Florida is no longer a swing state

Making the White House out of reach for the GOP

 

[Statistikhengst]

Gotta love the cocky Dems.

They get the White House in a set of circumstances they won't be able to duplicate and the president's appeal is dwindling, they squander the Congress, the Senate is in jeopardy, Republicans swept the state houses in 2010 and have the wind at their back for 2014, but Dems are full of oh so helpful advice for us.

Look after yourselves, guys.

Actually, the Electoral College is getting to the point where Republicans can no longer win the White House. Before the election even starts the Dems have a huge lead in Elecoral votes

Lose the Hispanic vote any more and Florida is no longer a swing state

Making the White House out of reach for the GOP

Yes:


Statistikhengst's ELECTORAL POLITICS - 2013 and beyond: ELECTORAL COLUMNS - a map display

 

[Amelia]

Reach honestly to women, Hispanics, and minorities is the path to follow for the GOP.

Heavens knows the opposite has not worked.

It's sensible people like you that make me miss Gerald Ford, who was a very sensible president thrown into the ring under the worst possible of circumstances.

Were the GOP to have a candidate who thinks as you do, I think he or she could win the full house of cards.

Were the GOP to have a candidate who thinks as Jake does, the GOP would be the Democrat party. Jake loves Obama. Jake claimed to support Romney but in spite of much questioning he could not provide any reason to justify voting for Romney over Obama, whom he consistently defends.

You're praising someone who regularly calls even right-leaning moderates such as myself reactionary. I have spent some time trying to think of a prominent GOP member who comes close to being as far to the left as Jake is and the only name which came to mind was David Brooks but Jake is to the left of Brooks so I had to keep thinking and never found one.

When you praise Jake, the credibility of the advice you give dips. You don't yet seem to be flirting with the level of disingenuity of [MENTION=20321]rightwinger[/MENTION] on this front, but if the GOP had a candidate who thought as Jake did the Democrat would still win because the leftwinger with a D after their name will get more votes than the leftwinger with the R after their name. The one with the D would get the D's and many of the I's. The one with the R would get some I's and some R's just on principle, but a sizeable swath of R's would stay home or vote Libertarian or almost anyone else rather than vote for a leftwinger.

 

[rightwinger]

Gotta love the cocky Dems.

They get the White House in a set of circumstances they won't be able to duplicate and the president's appeal is dwindling, they squander the Congress, the Senate is in jeopardy, Republicans swept the state houses in 2010 and have the wind at their back for 2014, but Dems are full of oh so helpful advice for us.

Look after yourselves, guys.

Actually, the Electoral College is getting to the point where Republicans can no longer win the White House. Before the election even starts the Dems have a huge lead in Elecoral votes

Lose the Hispanic vote any more and Florida is no longer a swing state

Making the White House out of reach for the GOP

Yes:


Statistikhengst's ELECTORAL POLITICS - 2013 and beyond: ELECTORAL COLUMNS - a map display

Good stuff

Actually, I see Florida and Virginia moving into the blue column with maybe North Carolina next

I don't see any swing states in danger of going Red

 

[Vandalshandle]

First of all, "securing our borders" is GOP double talk. Most illegal aliens walked right through the border patroled gate, with visa's which they just overstayed. All the drones and survielance equipment in the world isn't going to stop that.

Second, fining and punishing those that hire aliens is another piecie of GOP doubletalk. There is no such thing as an illegal alien, until a court of law has made that determination. You can fine and punish a company for hiring an undocumented worker, but only if he has not been given forged documentation that complies with those listed in the law that are good enough that a reasonable man would not know that they were false. I will be pleased to tell any poster here how to get legitament documented paperwork of a new identity, including a birth certificate, driver's license, and voter registration card...all issued by the legal authorities, for the sum of $1. It makes no difference to the GOP that more illegal aliens have been deported under the Obama administration than under any other admisistration. The whole issue is a smokescreen.

Not that I am complaining, however, The more the GOP villifies Hispanics...., well, you get the drift.

 

[protectionist]

Like herding cats

The immigrants are here. They are working

Give them a work visa, Make them pay taxes, make them follow the laws, if they are good citizens make them permanent

This is insanity. So you're OK with all these 16 HARMS to the American people ? With friends like you, the American people don't need enemies.

Was it "insanity" when the nation started?

This is a nation of immigrants. What we have now is people that want to slam the door making the rules on immigration.

The process we now have in place is completely nuts.

And makes no sense whatsoever.

If you are rich you can buy your way into citizenship..but poor folks are barred?

That's nuts.

NO, it WAS NOT insanity when the nation started. That's because THEN, the nation was young and undeveloped,and needed people to help build up the nation, and build up a military. But we're not talking about THEN. We're talking about what should be done NOW. We now have 316 Million people. That is 10 times the 30 million that Geographers agree (incidentally I used to teach Geography) is the optimum populatin for the USA relative to its resource base.

And this bloated, crazy overpopulation is the cause of almost all the items on that harms of immigration list. Nations should take in people if.whenever they NEED to do that. The last thing the US needs is more people.

 

[protectionist]

.

I clearly am missing something when it comes to this topic. Here's what I'd like to see, someone please tell me why it's so terrible:

• If you're here, you get guest worker status. You can work and you pay our taxes.
• When you get guest worker status, you go to the back of the immigration line.
• Your kids have the same status.
• You work (kids go to school) while you're waiting your turn.
• When you reach the front of the line, you're in.

This seems so simple. What am I missing?

.

[MENTION=34298]Mac1958[/MENTION] makes some very solid and interesting points.

I want to tell you all two different small stories:

My mentor, with whom I apprenticed many, many years ago, is an arch-Conservative. He is a damned fine person with very, very strict Conservative beliefs. In terms of beliefs, he and I are like night and day.

Ca. 7 years ago, when then President Bush, Jr. tried to push immigration reform through, my mentor was visiting me, we met up not far from Vienna. Over a bottle of wine, as I asked him what he thought about this all, he, an arch-Conservative, said the following to me:

1.) It's a shitty situation, built on the backs of both parties.
2.) Illegal aliens have built a shadow economy that would better serve our economy were it to come into the open.
3.) Most illegal aliens do jobs that most Americans don't want to do.
4.) Most illegal aliens come from catholic backgrounds and tend to have a more Conservative worldview, at least at the onset.
5.) It would cost far more to root them all up and send them back than to find a way to incorporate them into the Union.
6.) If the GOP doesn't do it, one day there will be a DEM president and the DEMS will do it and then they will get the credit.

And those words came from the mouth of an arch conservative. 7 years ago. Pretty prophetic stuff.

Second story:

A man I worked with for a while, a guy who did administrative stuff, once told me that whenever he had to do some kind of disciplinary process on someone, it was always a matter of discerning between intent and perception. In other words, a person who may have screwed up badly may intend one thing, but it will be perceived in another way.

And so it is with the GOP. Do I think that most Republicans hate immigrants, esp. illegal immigrants? NO, I don't.

But there are just enough GOP freaks out there who have had access to a microphone or TV interview, who have said batshit crazy things about illegal immigrants - and let's be clear here: in almost every case they are talking about Latinos - and automatically linking LEGAL immigrants who are Latinos with illegal immigrants. And that is where the GOP shoots itself in the foot every day over this issue. Every single day.

So, even if many, many Republicans don't intend it, it sure as hell is being perceived that way. Mitt Romney was forced to shoot himself in the foot with the "self-deportation" thing in order to assuage the extreme-right of the GOP and those words came back to bite him squarely in the ass in the fall.

Now, back to you, Mac: I see no problem with your ideas. But be careful about the children part. Kids born here, irrespective of the nationality of their parents at that time, are US citizens.

[MENTION=28109]Amelia[/MENTION] makes the point - and correctly so imo, that, if we don't completely, hermetically seal the border (meaning, the Texas / Mexico border), then in 20 years, we will be right back where we are now. Please remember that the Obama administration has put more boots on the ground at the border than any other administration and the Obama adminstration has deported more illegal immigrants than any other, but that is not enough. We may have to build an electronic - and - physical fence, along the entire stretch, without exception.

My advice to the GOP would be to take part in this, for it is going to happen, anyway. If the GOP kills immigration reform once more, polling is already showing that the Latinos will simply give up on the GOP. There were already strong indications of this in 2012. Latinos really, really liked Bill Clinton. They are going to be crazy for Hillary, mark my word, and if she selects a Latino as her running mate, and I suspect she may just do that, then the sleeping bear that is the Latino vote will awaken.

What is not acceptable is the excuse on the part of GOPer that Latinos will never vote GOP and so, "fuck 'em". Really?

President George W. Bush, Jr, got 45% of the Latino vote. A real GOP outreach could possibly bring the GOP more, but the situation is absolutely hopeless for the GOP so long as it continues to demonize Latinos, plain and simple. Whether or not it is intended, it is being perceived so. And as long as you have assholes like Rep. King from Iowa talking about Latino drug-dealing teenagers with calves the size of melons or a total whackazoid like Tommy Tancredo calling for literacy tests for LEGAL immigrants to be able to vote whilst also saying that we should nuke Mecca, or Louis Gohmert babbling on and on and on about El Quaida getting in bed with Mexicans so as to smuggle over "anchor babies" who will then grow up to blow up our cities - as long as your team has these kind of absolutely batshit crazy nutz going around doing this kind of shit, the Latino community will never, ever trust you.

I also would like to know why Republicans are so damned defeatist about their chances at recruiting Latinos into the GOP. Were the Congress to adopt Obama's proposal from LAST YEAR, then that would mean at least 12 years would have to pass before the first illegal aliens would be naturalized, which means that they would probably first vote in the 2028 elections. Does anyone think that the GOP is SOOOO paralyzed that it cannot convince Latinos on the battlefield of ideas that maybe their party is better, when they would have about 14 years to get the job done? Really?

Had Republicans been that defeatist in 1980, then the Reagan Revolution would never have happened, for Reagan brought people into the GOP whom most GOPers thought would never sign-up.

So, those were my two cents.

[MENTION=20412]JakeStarkey[/MENTION] [MENTION=20321]rightwinger[/MENTION]

Is VOTING all you are thinking about in this matter ? What about ALL THIS >>

Harms of Immigration

1. Americans lose jobs. (especially Whites due to affirmative action).

2. Wage reduction.

3. Tax $ lost (due to off books work + lower wages paid).

4. Remittance $$$ lost. ($40 Billion year).

5. Tax $$ lost to immigrants on welfare.

6. Increased crime.

7. Increased traffic congestion.

8. Increased pollution.

9. Overcrowding in hospital ERs.

10. Overcrowding in recreational facilities.

11. Overcrowding in government offices.

12. Overcrowding in schools.

13. Decrease in funds available for entitlements.

14. Cultural erosion.

15. Overuse of scarce resources (oil, gasoline, fresh water, jobs, electricity, food, etc)

16. Introduction of foreign diseases.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Obamas calling illegals "no second class citizens" means they get to collect welfare and vote turning Texas blue

 

[protectionist]

First of all, "securing our borders" is GOP double talk. Most illegal aliens walked right through the border patroled gate, with visa's which they just overstayed. All the drones and survielance equipment in the world isn't going to stop that.

Second, fining and punishing those that hire aliens is another piecie of GOP doubletalk. There is no such thing as an illegal alien, until a court of law has made that determination. You can fine and punish a company for hiring an undocumented worker, but only if he has not been given forged documentation that complies with those listed in the law that are good enough that a reasonable man would not know that they were false. I will be pleased to tell any poster here how to get legitament documented paperwork of a new identity, including a birth certificate, driver's license, and voter registration card...all issued by the legal authorities, for the sum of $1. It makes no difference to the GOP that more illegal aliens have been deported under the Obama administration than under any other admisistration. The whole issue is a smokescreen.

Not that I am complaining, however, The more the GOP villifies Hispanics...., well, you get the drift.

To call an illegal alien an "undocumented worker is about the equivalent of calling a bank robber an "informal withdrawl agent"

As for securing the border, the double fence, mandated by the 2006 Secure Fence Act, built across the ENTIRE Mexican border, with 5 rows on concertina wire on the American side, would be very effective at stopping border crashers. As for visa overstayers, just pass a law making that illegal. As for illegal employers violating IRCA, yes, they can only be held responsible for "knowingly" hiring illegals, BUT much can be done to assist them, such as mandatory E-Verify usage and a mandatory biometric ID system.

 

[JohnL.Burke]

First of all, "securing our borders" is GOP double talk. Most illegal aliens walked right through the border patroled gate, with visa's which they just overstayed. All the drones and survielance equipment in the world isn't going to stop that.

Second, fining and punishing those that hire aliens is another piecie of GOP doubletalk. There is no such thing as an illegal alien, until a court of law has made that determination. You can fine and punish a company for hiring an undocumented worker, but only if he has not been given forged documentation that complies with those listed in the law that are good enough that a reasonable man would not know that they were false. I will be pleased to tell any poster here how to get legitament documented paperwork of a new identity, including a birth certificate, driver's license, and voter registration card...all issued by the legal authorities, for the sum of $1. It makes no difference to the GOP that more illegal aliens have been deported under the Obama administration than under any other admisistration. The whole issue is a smokescreen.

Not that I am complaining, however, The more the GOP villifies Hispanics...., well, you get the drift.

I get the drift that you didn't read your own post. How can you say there is no such thing as an illegal alien after you wrote about most "illegal aliens" walking through the border patrolled gate. Which is pure nonsense by the way.
As for the rest of the post, I would agree that I didn't go into details. I simply stated a very general idea of what should be happening. I can post how I think it SHOULD happen but I think the previous post is a pretty good start on how we fix a broken system. Plus it's dinner time and I'm making some tacos. No irony intended.

 

[Vox]

there is an old proverb - better is an enemy of good.

our immigration law is working perfectly well - if anybody would like to use it and PAY.

advice for GOP - if you do not want to be ruined completely - forget about immigration. IGNORE it. Pull the harry reid card on all talks about immigration.

 

[Vandalshandle]

First of all, "securing our borders" is GOP double talk. Most illegal aliens walked right through the border patroled gate, with visa's which they just overstayed. All the drones and survielance equipment in the world isn't going to stop that.

Second, fining and punishing those that hire aliens is another piecie of GOP doubletalk. There is no such thing as an illegal alien, until a court of law has made that determination. You can fine and punish a company for hiring an undocumented worker, but only if he has not been given forged documentation that complies with those listed in the law that are good enough that a reasonable man would not know that they were false. I will be pleased to tell any poster here how to get legitament documented paperwork of a new identity, including a birth certificate, driver's license, and voter registration card...all issued by the legal authorities, for the sum of $1. It makes no difference to the GOP that more illegal aliens have been deported under the Obama administration than under any other admisistration. The whole issue is a smokescreen.

Not that I am complaining, however, The more the GOP villifies Hispanics...., well, you get the drift.

To call an illegal alien an "undocumented worker is about the equivalent of calling a bank robber an "informal withdrawl agent"

As for securing the border, the double fence, mandated by the 2006 Secure Fence Act, built across the ENTIRE Mexican border, with 5 rows on concertina wire on the American side, would be very effective at stopping border crashers. As for visa overstayers, just pass a law making that illegal. As for illegal employers violating IRCA, yes, they can only be held responsible for "knowingly" hiring illegals, BUT much can be done to assist them, such as mandatory E-Verify usage and a mandatory biometric ID system.

You are not so obtuse as to believe that there is such a thing in the legal world as a "bank robber" until a court of law convicts him as such. Until that date, he is an "alleged bank robber". There is no law against hiring an "alleged illegal alien".

 

[Vandalshandle]

First of all, "securing our borders" is GOP double talk. Most illegal aliens walked right through the border patroled gate, with visa's which they just overstayed. All the drones and survielance equipment in the world isn't going to stop that.

Second, fining and punishing those that hire aliens is another piecie of GOP doubletalk. There is no such thing as an illegal alien, until a court of law has made that determination. You can fine and punish a company for hiring an undocumented worker, but only if he has not been given forged documentation that complies with those listed in the law that are good enough that a reasonable man would not know that they were false. I will be pleased to tell any poster here how to get legitament documented paperwork of a new identity, including a birth certificate, driver's license, and voter registration card...all issued by the legal authorities, for the sum of $1. It makes no difference to the GOP that more illegal aliens have been deported under the Obama administration than under any other admisistration. The whole issue is a smokescreen.

Not that I am complaining, however, The more the GOP villifies Hispanics...., well, you get the drift.

I get the drift that you didn't read your own post. How can you say there is no such thing as an illegal alien after you wrote about most "illegal aliens" walking through the border patrolled gate. Which is pure nonsense by the way.
As for the rest of the post, I would agree that I didn't go into details. I simply stated a very general idea of what should be happening. I can post how I think it SHOULD happen but I think the previous post is a pretty good start on how we fix a broken system. Plus it's dinner time and I'm making some tacos. No irony intended.

I stand corrected. not "Most" illegal aliens mearly overstayed their visa. Only 40% of them.

http://www.politifact.com/texas/sta...arter-claim-40-percent-nations-illegal-resid/

I live 35 miles from the border. of the other 60%, about half, or more, come through hidden on trucks and busses and trains. Good luck with stopping that with a fence and drones.

 

[Howey]

This is insanity. So you're OK with all these 16 HARMS to the American people ? With friends like you, the American people don't need enemies.

Was it "insanity" when the nation started?

This is a nation of immigrants. What we have now is people that want to slam the door making the rules on immigration.

The process we now have in place is completely nuts.

And makes no sense whatsoever.

If you are rich you can buy your way into citizenship..but poor folks are barred?

That's nuts.

NO, it WAS NOT insanity when the nation started. That's because THEN, the nation was young and undeveloped,and needed people to help build up the nation, and build up a military. But we're not talking about THEN. We're talking about what should be done NOW. We now have 316 Million people.

Interesting...are you one of those people who believe the Constitution should be taken literally today too, just like when our country was in it's infancy?