Ron Paul On National ID...

[Quantum Windbag]

I'm sorry to be blunt, but I'm tired of the left mis-characterizing and lying, or just that uninformed, about the Arizona immigration law.

All it would have required is a state issued ID, something that police officers can ask for. There isn't any 'papers', making childish Nazi connections because there really isn't anything of substance behind your argument.

To you we have no right to enforce our border, and those who believe we should are racists. That is because you lack critical thinking.

I’m sorry, but you’re the uninformed one – what would occasion an agent of the state to ask for ID with no probable cause or even the context of reasonable suspicion – looking ‘illegal’? And what does ‘illegal’ look like?

They ask in the context of an otherwise legal stop.

Believe it or not ICE routinely asks people to prove their citizenship within 50 miles of the border. They do this without any probable cause, exigent circumstances, or anything else than a desire to hassle people. Legal aliens are required by law to carry proof that they are in the country legally, and citizens can choose to tell them to go to hell. Most illegals get flustered and try to lie about it, which is how they get caught. The Arizona law would simply have allowed police to ask for proof of citizenship after they were engaged in some type of contact that was legally initiated, which actually affords people a higher level of protection than federal law gives them.

Want to try again?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

They ask in the context of an otherwise legal stop.

Which is reasonable suspicion per Terry. My post concerned absent any PC or RS.

Believe it or not ICE routinely asks people to prove their citizenship within 50 miles of the border. They do this without any probable cause, exigent circumstances, or anything else than a desire to hassle people.

1070 doesn’t address Federal agents, neither did my post.

Legal aliens are required by law to carry proof that they are in the country legally, and citizens can choose to tell them to go to hell.

1070 doesn’t address LPRAs, neither did my post.

Most illegals get flustered and try to lie about it, which is how they get caught.

That could constitute PC or RS, again, not addressed in my post.

The Arizona law would simply have allowed police to ask for proof of citizenship after they were engaged in some type of contact that was legally initiated, which actually affords people a higher level of protection than federal law gives them.

Which wasn’t at issue in my post.

And yet again: absent any probable cause or reasonable suspicion, what would Constitutionally occasion an agent of the state to ask for ID.

You clearly did not understand my post.

 

[rightwinger]

A national ID makes sense for the country.

Developing a biometric ID that can't be faked will reduce ID theft and illegal immigration. It would also allow you to carry one card with you that would serve as Drivers License, Credit Card, SS Card,Medical ID. Bank Card and any other card you now carry

You already carry an ID card....why not an effective one?

Yeah, because nobody will ever figure out how to hack those, right?

Many current state IDs are difficult to hack. Add facial recognition parameters, fingerprint map or DNA and it becomes impossible. The data is not on the card itself but a centralized database

 

[rightwinger]

Another reason why I have no use for Dr. Paul or Libertarians in general. Some form of tamper-proof identification IS necessary if we're going to fix the problems in this country. They cannot be dealt with if that is not a part of the solution. Obviously Dr. Paul and company are more interested in protecting illegal aliens and other criminals than they are the sovereignty of this nation.

There is no such thing as tamper proof, therefore there is no need for a tamper proof ID. Just imagine the headaches once your tamper proof ID is stolen and used by someone to commit a criminal act. The government is already quite willing to raid your home based on the fact someone who might have lived there almost tow years ago might have done something illegal, this would just give them more cause to do so.

Let's say your tamperproof ID is stolen Your first line of defense is your picture is on it. That can be doctored. Second line of defense is a personal pin. Third line of defense would be biometric data stored in a centralized data base. When you scan the card it only links to one set of biometric data

For most transactions picture and pin would be enough. For employment, passport, criminal matters....a biometric check may be required

It only protects you

 

[Immanuel]

A national ID makes sense for the country.

Developing a biometric ID that can't be faked will reduce ID theft and illegal immigration. It would also allow you to carry one card with you that would serve as Drivers License, Credit Card, SS Card,Medical ID. Bank Card and any other card you now carry

You already carry an ID card....why not an effective one?

Yeah, because nobody will ever figure out how to hack those, right?

Many current state IDs are difficult to hack. Add facial recognition parameters, fingerprint map or DNA and it becomes impossible. The data is not on the card itself but a centralized database

Making it so that they can track your every move even down to what time and where you take a crap?

Oh great... that is just what we need; a bigger, stronger, more authoritarian government. I realize it is already possible for them to do this, but you want to make it easier!

Lord Help Us

Immie

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

When you force people to carry papers that are not needed for any security reason then you force democracy out of our lives.


That is exactly why the republicans are creating ID laws for voting.

They serve no security purpose and keep legal Americans from voting

I'm sorry to be blunt, but I'm tired of the left mis-characterizing and lying, or just that uninformed, about the Arizona immigration law.

You may not have met TM yet. Lying is all she knows. You'll get used to it.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

I'm sorry to be blunt, but I'm tired of the left mis-characterizing and lying, or just that uninformed, about the Arizona immigration law.

All it would have required is a state issued ID, something that police officers can ask for. There isn't any 'papers', making childish Nazi connections because there really isn't anything of substance behind your argument.

To you we have no right to enforce our border, and those who believe we should are racists. That is because you lack critical thinking.

I’m sorry, but you’re the uninformed one – what would occasion an agent of the state to ask for ID with no probable cause or even the context of reasonable suspicion –

According to the Arizona law, police would not be able to just randomly stop people and ask for ID. You have to have committed some violation to be stopped.

I agree, though, that the law walks us down a slippery slope. If it does become enacted, it needs to be closely monitored.

looking ‘illegal’? And what does ‘illegal’ look like?

Looking illegal means looking Hispanic because that's where the vast majority of them are from, just like looking like a terrorist means looking Arab, but you already knew that. This of course does not mean all Hispanics are illegal and all Arabs are terrorists, but to pretend that ethnicity shouldn't be taken into consideration is illogical, immature, and only adds to the problem. If a police officer stops a car for a moving violation and it's loaded with Mexicans speaking broken English, naturally they are going to suspect they may be here illegally. Any reasonable person would, including yourself.

 

[Anachronism]

According to the Arizona law, police would not be able to just randomly stop people and ask for ID. You have to have committed some violation to be stopped.

I agree, though, that the law walks us down a slippery slope. If it does become enacted, it needs to be closely monitored.

See, I have no problem showing an officer an ID whether he's stopped me for something or not. I know that I'm not doing anything wrong, that I'm legally allowed to be here, and that the officer has no reason to give me trouble, so I have no issue with being asked to prove who I am.

Personally, there's a selfish interest for me in there being a National ID.... cleaning up my wallet. Currently I have FOUR different forms of ID in my wallet. My MA driver's license, two separate firearms licenses, and my Social Security Card. Additionally, I have an ATM card, a credit card, four different health insurance/hospital ID cards, and half a dozen store "rewards" program cards. I also have my NRA, AAA, and several other national organization membership cards. With a proper National ID (as I envision it), I should be able to replace all of those cards except for the credit card with one ID.

 

[rightwinger]

Yeah, because nobody will ever figure out how to hack those, right?

Many current state IDs are difficult to hack. Add facial recognition parameters, fingerprint map or DNA and it becomes impossible. The data is not on the card itself but a centralized database

Making it so that they can track your every move even down to what time and where you take a crap?

Oh great... that is just what we need; a bigger, stronger, more authoritarian government. I realize it is already possible for them to do this, but you want to make it easier!

Lord Help Us

Immie

What is different than they have right now?

They can track your location through cell phone, where you used your credit card, EZ Pass, ATM withdrawals...

If you are so paranoid, why don't you get rid of all those things?

 

[rightwinger]

According to the Arizona law, police would not be able to just randomly stop people and ask for ID. You have to have committed some violation to be stopped.

I agree, though, that the law walks us down a slippery slope. If it does become enacted, it needs to be closely monitored.

See, I have no problem showing an officer an ID whether he's stopped me for something or not. I know that I'm not doing anything wrong, that I'm legally allowed to be here, and that the officer has no reason to give me trouble, so I have no issue with being asked to prove who I am.

Personally, there's a selfish interest for me in there being a National ID.... cleaning up my wallet. Currently I have FOUR different forms of ID in my wallet. My MA driver's license, two separate firearms licenses, and my Social Security Card. Additionally, I have an ATM card, a credit card, four different health insurance/hospital ID cards, and half a dozen store "rewards" program cards. I also have my NRA, AAA, and several other national organization membership cards. With a proper National ID (as I envision it), I should be able to replace all of those cards except for the credit card with one ID.

I am with you...

Why do I need so many cards? All they do is say who I am and assign me a different number for each function. A single ID will identify without a doubt who you are. Then they only have to search their database to know that Joe Citizen is licensed to drive in Mass, has credit authorized with the following companies and banks, has medical records with the following doctors, has a passport, has health insurance with the following company...

 

[Immanuel]

Many current state IDs are difficult to hack. Add facial recognition parameters, fingerprint map or DNA and it becomes impossible. The data is not on the card itself but a centralized database

Making it so that they can track your every move even down to what time and where you take a crap?

Oh great... that is just what we need; a bigger, stronger, more authoritarian government. I realize it is already possible for them to do this, but you want to make it easier!

Lord Help Us

Immie

What is different than they have right now?

They can track your location through cell phone, where you used your credit card, EZ Pass, ATM withdrawals...

If you are so paranoid, why don't you get rid of all those things?

Doesn't matter, you simply want to make it easier for them to use anything and everything against us.

Like I said when the Patriot Act was being debated... we may not have to worry about the government in charge today, it is the one that comes along tomorrow that scares the shit out of me.

I do not want them tracking every purchase I make even though I have no intention of purchasing anything illegal. I do not want them to have the ability to track what movies I see, what books I read/check out of the library, what my favorite candy bar is etc. etc. etc.

With a cell phone they have to be monitoring me for some reason, which I wish would require a warrant but it doesn't. With this national id card they could store every single purchase I ever made and keep it for decades then when some prick in power gets pissed off at me because I flipped him the bird when he cut me off, he can go into the database and make my life hell. That is what this National ID can and will lead to.

Immie

 

[rightwinger]

Making it so that they can track your every move even down to what time and where you take a crap?

Oh great... that is just what we need; a bigger, stronger, more authoritarian government. I realize it is already possible for them to do this, but you want to make it easier!

Lord Help Us

Immie

What is different than they have right now?

They can track your location through cell phone, where you used your credit card, EZ Pass, ATM withdrawals...

If you are so paranoid, why don't you get rid of all those things?

Doesn't matter, you simply want to make it easier for them to use anything and everything against us.

Like I said when the Patriot Act was being debated... we may not have to worry about the government in charge today, it is the one that comes along tomorrow that scares the shit out of me.

I do not want them tracking every purchase I make even though I have no intention of purchasing anything illegal. I do not want them to have the ability to track what movies I see, what books I read/check out of the library, what my favorite candy bar is etc. etc. etc.

With a cell phone they have to be monitoring me for some reason, which I wish would require a warrant but it doesn't. With this national id card they could store every single purchase I ever made and keep it for decades then when some prick in power gets pissed off at me because I flipped him the bird when he cut me off, he can go into the database and make my life hell. That is what this National ID can and will lead to.

Immie

If the Government is interested in your whereabouts they can track your cell phone whether you are making a call or not. They can track any purchase made by credit card or check. If they want to fuck with you, they have the means. patriot act says they can do what they want. After all...you might be a terrorist

If that bothers you.....pay cash and turn off your phone

 

[Immanuel]

What is different than they have right now?

They can track your location through cell phone, where you used your credit card, EZ Pass, ATM withdrawals...

If you are so paranoid, why don't you get rid of all those things?

Doesn't matter, you simply want to make it easier for them to use anything and everything against us.

Like I said when the Patriot Act was being debated... we may not have to worry about the government in charge today, it is the one that comes along tomorrow that scares the shit out of me.

I do not want them tracking every purchase I make even though I have no intention of purchasing anything illegal. I do not want them to have the ability to track what movies I see, what books I read/check out of the library, what my favorite candy bar is etc. etc. etc.

With a cell phone they have to be monitoring me for some reason, which I wish would require a warrant but it doesn't. With this national id card they could store every single purchase I ever made and keep it for decades then when some prick in power gets pissed off at me because I flipped him the bird when he cut me off, he can go into the database and make my life hell. That is what this National ID can and will lead to.

Immie

If the Government is interested in your whereabouts they can track your cell phone whether you are making a call or not. They can track any purchase made by credit card or check. If they want to fuck with you, they have the means. patriot act says they can do what they want. After all...you might be a terrorist

If that bothers you.....pay cash and turn off your phone

Problem with your solution is that I suspect cash will be a thing of the past in the very near future especially with what you are promoting.

Any idea how much the government would save by eliminating the mints and the costs associated with printing bills or minting coins?

Immie

 

[Anachronism]

With a cell phone they have to be monitoring me for some reason, which I wish would require a warrant but it doesn't. With this national id card they could store every single purchase I ever made and keep it for decades then when some prick in power gets pissed off at me because I flipped him the bird when he cut me off, he can go into the database and make my life hell. That is what this National ID can and will lead to.

How do you expect a national ID to track CASH purchases, Immie? If that's your concern, then the greenback is your friend. I don't believe that a national ID should have any monetary connection except as an ATM card. It shouldn't be linked as a credit or debit card. I'm also in favor of having it compartmentalized.... those who have access to it for your driving records would NOT have access to information on your firearms license, banking information, etc....

 

[Immanuel]

With a cell phone they have to be monitoring me for some reason, which I wish would require a warrant but it doesn't. With this national id card they could store every single purchase I ever made and keep it for decades then when some prick in power gets pissed off at me because I flipped him the bird when he cut me off, he can go into the database and make my life hell. That is what this National ID can and will lead to.

How do you expect a national ID to track CASH purchases, Immie? If that's your concern, then the greenback is your friend. I don't believe that a national ID should have any monetary connection except as an ATM card. It shouldn't be linked as a credit or debit card. I'm also in favor of having it compartmentalized.... those who have access to it for your driving records would NOT have access to information on your firearms license, banking information, etc....

Hehe,

I answered your question one post above.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

With a cell phone they have to be monitoring me for some reason, which I wish would require a warrant but it doesn't. With this national id card they could store every single purchase I ever made and keep it for decades then when some prick in power gets pissed off at me because I flipped him the bird when he cut me off, he can go into the database and make my life hell. That is what this National ID can and will lead to.

How do you expect a national ID to track CASH purchases, Immie? If that's your concern, then the greenback is your friend. I don't believe that a national ID should have any monetary connection except as an ATM card. It shouldn't be linked as a credit or debit card. I'm also in favor of having it compartmentalized.... those who have access to it for your driving records would NOT have access to information on your firearms license, banking information, etc....

Also, what you are in favor of and what an overpowering government will do with this are not necessarily in line with each other.

Remember they sold the Patriot Act telling us that it was for our own good and that only terrorists needed to worry about such things. They will sell this crap to us in the same way.

Immie

 

[Anachronism]

I answered your question one post above.

If they ever do away with cash, I'm in deep trouble. I'll probably end up starving to death because I go out of my way not to use my credit card any more than necessary, and it has such a low limit on it that I'm not sure I could survive that way.

Also, what you are in favor of and what an overpowering government will do with this are not necessarily in line with each other.

Remember they sold the Patriot Act telling us that it was for our own good and that only terrorists needed to worry about such things. They will sell this crap to us in the same way.

Again, I don't really fear the government the way you do, Immie. I'm not a big fan of a lot of things the government does, but I don't fear it the way you seem to. Personally, I haven't had a problem with the Patriot Act, but I'm sure that doesn't surprise you either.

 

[Immanuel]

I answered your question one post above.

If they ever do away with cash, I'm in deep trouble. I'll probably end up starving to death because I go out of my way not to use my credit card any more than necessary, and it has such a low limit on it that I'm not sure I could survive that way.

Also, what you are in favor of and what an overpowering government will do with this are not necessarily in line with each other.

Remember they sold the Patriot Act telling us that it was for our own good and that only terrorists needed to worry about such things. They will sell this crap to us in the same way.

Again, I don't really fear the government the way you do, Immie. I'm not a big fan of a lot of things the government does, but I don't fear it the way you seem to. Personally, I haven't had a problem with the Patriot Act, but I'm sure that doesn't surprise you either.

You said it yourself, use the card like an ATM card which is a Debit Card. It will be attached directly to your checking account and your credit card(s). When you go to make a purchase you will tell it where the money is to come from "Debit/Credit" I see that on gas pumps all the time.

I don't fear the government per se. I fear the men/women in the government who have their own agendas to push. When the Patriot Act was debated, I used to say just wait until Hillary Clinton becomes President and decides to do away with anyone and everyone associated with the Pro-life movement. Edit: I don't believe she would go that far any longer, but I used to believe she would.

I don't fear President Obama. I don't agree with his policies, but I have not seen any indication from him that he is a vindictive person, but, who is to say that down the line we won't elect the next Adolf Hitler? Maybe this one won't be out to eliminate the Jewish people but maybe, just maybe, his target will be the elderly?

Immie

 

[Anachronism]

You said it yourself, use the card like an ATM card which is a Debit Card. It will be attached directly to your checking account and your credit card(s). When you go to make a purchase you will tell it where the money is to come from "Debit/Credit" I see that on gas pumps all the time.

I had my bank remove the "debit card" feature from my ATM card. It CAN'T be used that way. I also requested that my Credit Card (I only have one) remove the "cash advance" feature from my account. I have never and will never use either of those features. I would have no problem with linking a bank account to the ID card, but in terms of using it as a credit/debit card, I would have a MAJOR problem with it.

I don't fear the government per se. I fear the men/women in the government who have their own agendas to push. When the Patriot Act was debated, I used to say just wait until Hillary Clinton becomes President and decides to do away with anyone and everyone associated with the Pro-life movement. Edit: I don't believe she would go that far any longer, but I used to believe she would.

Then what you need to work on changing is the type of people who are allowed to be involved in the governmental system. Good luck with that.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

Many current state IDs are difficult to hack. Add facial recognition parameters, fingerprint map or DNA and it becomes impossible.

Impossible? If I knew you in person I could have your fingerprint by the end of the day.

The data is not on the card itself but a centralized database

Which someone will eventually figure out how to crack. It's already happened in other countries and our federal government has been hacked before.

And maybe I don't want the government to have my DNA or fingerprints.