Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians

[P F Tinmore]

Exactly why should they trust either the US or Israel's intentions regarding negotiatins at this point?

What is not to trust in either the US or Israel's intentions with respect to a peace treaty based on mutual negotiations? The last offer gave the Palestinians EVERYTHING they asked for -- including ALL of East Jerusalem and ALL of the Jewish Holy Places. It was refused.

Somehow that makes Israel and the US not trustworthy?

The US is absolutely no longer a trustworthy negotiator. Given the political climate NOW, Netanyahu and Likuds own derogatory statements on Palestinians - why should they trust that government or Trump?

Any negotiation involves carrots and sticks. The Pals have certainly received sticks. What good faith carrots have they been given by Trump? What sticks has Israel received? Zero to both?

Again, I ask what makes the US an untrustworthy negotiator?

As to the rest, I disagree. Palestinians have received FAR more carrots than sticks. Since when is being offered EVERYTHING you want a stick? Since when is Israel unilaterally ceding territory (Gaza, Areas A and B) to Palestine a stick? Since when is millions of $ in foreign funds annually a stick? Indeed, Palestine has been offered carrot, after carrot, after carrot. None seems to be working. Palestine, thus far, hasn't even been required to give up TERRORISM and violence against innocent Israelis. Time for some sticks. Some true sticks.

Since when is Israel unilaterally ceding territory (Gaza, Areas A and B) to Palestine a stick?

Israel cannot cede something that is not theirs.

 

[harmonica]

we are in HUGE DEBT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
....punish people???????? after giving them millions$????
troll thread

 

[P F Tinmore]

The US unilaterally took Jerusalem off the table.

The US did no such thing and even Trump claims so. What the US did was unilaterally recognize a sovereign Nation's right to choose its own capital in its own sovereign territory. Which is normative.

Unless you are going to try to argue that WEST Jerusalem is not part of sovereign Israel.

And East Jerusalem? Jerusalem is claimed by two adjoining factions, one of which captured the city in the most recent war.

He absolutely took it off the table.

He made a choice as to which side he would recognize as owning the undivided city.

And East Jerusalem? Jerusalem is claimed by two adjoining factions, one of which captured the city in the most recent war.

And it is illegal to acquire territory by war.

He absolutely took it off the table.

Even with all of his bluster, Trump cannot unilaterally change international law.

 

[rylah]

I ask it as a one sided question because I am responding to a one sided comment

On the contrary. The comment you were responding to called for EQUALITY. That is, both peoples having equal rights to claim and annex disputed territory.

..the fact that Israel does a better job of diversity doesn’t alter the fact that when it comes to settlements built in occupied/disputed territory there is little to no diversity. Why? Why aren’t non Jews encouraged to expand into those areas?

Because of the conflict. Obviously. The Jewish people, for reasons perfectly justifiable, are reluctant to exchange their safety in their communities for diversity. (May the memories of Ari Fuld, and other victims of terrorism, be a blessing). And Israel, for reasons perfectly justifiable, is reluctant to formally annex both the territory and the Arab Palestinian peoples who are SUPPOSED to be seeking self-determination, remember?

Why aren't Jews being welcomed into Nabi Saleh? And where are the calls from the international community for diversity in Arab communities in the disputed territories? Where are the calls from the international community for Ahed and her family to take in returnees -- Jewish returnees? Where is the demand for diversity in Gaza? In Areas A and B?

Is Palestine calling for the unilateral withdrawal of Arab Palestinian peoples from Israeli territory? Are they willing to pick up and move 10,000 or more Arabs from Israel in a gesture of goodwill and ceding of territory?

What new Arab settlements have been built for Arabs outside that region to migrate to? That would be analogous to the Jewish settlements but no one is willing to back anything up with numbers.

There were more than 15,000 illegal Arab housing units put up in Jerusalem between 2014 and 2016. There have been dozens of illegal Arab settlements created. The EU has supported several expanding or new Arab communities.

Again, I'll ask you -- what is the OBJECTIVE standard here. I said the objective standard should be that both Israel and Palestine has equal right to annex the disputed territories. I said the objective standard should be that both Jews and Arabs should be permitted to reside there. Do you have a different objective standard?

Why aren't Jews being welcomed into Nabi Saleh?

They aren't? The problem with Jews moving into Palestine is that they always bring Israel with them. If Miko Peled, for example, built a house in Nabi Saleh I don't think anyone would have a problem with it.

And You don't see how racist is this statement?

 

[Mindful]

Propaganda weapon against Israel.


The Hoax of the Palestinians

According to an Israeli propaganda site.

Priceless.

You are so feeble. lol.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Has Trump brandished any sticks to coerce the Israelis to the table?

I recall that Israel had pre conditions to be met...did she waive them?

Israel does not NEED any sticks to be brought to the table. Israel has come to the table, with generous offers for peace, for DECADES. The last was only ten years ago.

Israeli pre-conditions? What would those be? What pre-conditions do you think Israel demands?

Israeli pre-conditions? What would those be? What pre-conditions do you think Israel demands?

It demands to keep everything it has stolen.

 

[Mindful]

Has Trump brandished any sticks to coerce the Israelis to the table?

I recall that Israel had pre conditions to be met...did she waive them?

Israel does not NEED any sticks to be brought to the table. Israel has come to the table, with generous offers for peace, for DECADES. The last was only ten years ago.

Israeli pre-conditions? What would those be? What pre-conditions do you think Israel demands?

Israeli pre-conditions? What would those be? What pre-conditions do you think Israel demands?

It demands to keep everything it has stolen.

So you keep on saying. Yawn.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The US unilaterally took Jerusalem off the table.

The US did no such thing and even Trump claims so. What the US did was unilaterally recognize a sovereign Nation's right to choose its own capital in its own sovereign territory. Which is normative.

Unless you are going to try to argue that WEST Jerusalem is not part of sovereign Israel.

Unless you are going to try to argue that WEST Jerusalem is not part of sovereign Israel.

Israel captured west Jerusalem by force. It is illegal to acquire territory by force.

 

[P F Tinmore]

According the World Bank and other sources that rank economies and standards of living, the West Bank is SOLIDLY "middle class" of the world. Just LOOK at the cities and infrastructure there in major Pali cities. .That brand new city that the Palis are building from scratch is a HUGE upper middle class development. (Go watch the videos promoting Rawahbi.) . Gaza is ranked as "lower middle class" in the world listings because of the embargo and the consistent encounters with the IDF.

Palestine is not a third world country except where Israel's theft and destruction has made it so.

 

[Mindful]

The US unilaterally took Jerusalem off the table.

The US did no such thing and even Trump claims so. What the US did was unilaterally recognize a sovereign Nation's right to choose its own capital in its own sovereign territory. Which is normative.

Unless you are going to try to argue that WEST Jerusalem is not part of sovereign Israel.

Unless you are going to try to argue that WEST Jerusalem is not part of sovereign Israel.

Israel captured west Jerusalem by force. It is illegal to acquire territory by force.

Yeah and......?

The Soviets captured Berlin by force. In a war of aggression started by the Germans.

Reminds me of something.

 

[Mindful]

According the World Bank and other sources that rank economies and standards of living, the West Bank is SOLIDLY "middle class" of the world. Just LOOK at the cities and infrastructure there in major Pali cities. .That brand new city that the Palis are building from scratch is a HUGE upper middle class development. (Go watch the videos promoting Rawahbi.) . Gaza is ranked as "lower middle class" in the world listings because of the embargo and the consistent encounters with the IDF.

Palestine is not a third world country except where Israel's theft and destruction has made it so.

It's a very nice place. I've been all around it. Jericho is particularly nice.

And all those mansions in Narareth. Gorgeous.

 

[rylah]

The US unilaterally took Jerusalem off the table.

The US did no such thing and even Trump claims so. What the US did was unilaterally recognize a sovereign Nation's right to choose its own capital in its own sovereign territory. Which is normative.

Unless you are going to try to argue that WEST Jerusalem is not part of sovereign Israel.

And East Jerusalem? Jerusalem is claimed by two adjoining factions, one of which captured the city in the most recent war.

He absolutely took it off the table.

He made a choice as to which side he would recognize as owning the undivided city.

And East Jerusalem? Jerusalem is claimed by two adjoining factions, one of which captured the city in the most recent war.

And it is illegal to acquire territory by war.

He absolutely took it off the table.

Even with all of his bluster, Trump cannot unilaterally change international law.

The Jewish nation has title to Jerusalem backed by international law.
That can't be changed either, You can play pretend all You want, but the only legitimacy for an Arab capital in Jerusalem goes through the generous agreement of the Jewish Nation.

Q. When was that agreement given to the Arab nation?

 

[P F Tinmore]

The current White House is just playing at foreign policy. But really, when you hear any seriously intelligent question put to them on the issues that face us today, all you get is babble, orbiting around the issues by with no clear or straight direction in a circular running track.

I have always thought of Trump as a loose cannon with no detectable thought processes. That is why I didn't vote for him. And, with all of the assholes he brought into his administration, I expect nothing intelligent out of him.

 

[rylah]

According the World Bank and other sources that rank economies and standards of living, the West Bank is SOLIDLY "middle class" of the world. Just LOOK at the cities and infrastructure there in major Pali cities. .That brand new city that the Palis are building from scratch is a HUGE upper middle class development. (Go watch the videos promoting Rawahbi.) . Gaza is ranked as "lower middle class" in the world listings because of the embargo and the consistent encounters with the IDF.

Palestine is not a third world country except where Israel's theft and destruction has made it so.

The Jewish Nation managed to develop the country more than any other nation in history by a far shot.
Before that it was one of the most abandoned, poor and wrecked provinces of the Muslim empire.

One of the reasons for the Arab influx into the country.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I ask it as a one sided question because I am responding to a one sided comment

On the contrary. The comment you were responding to called for EQUALITY. That is, both peoples having equal rights to claim and annex disputed territory.

..the fact that Israel does a better job of diversity doesn’t alter the fact that when it comes to settlements built in occupied/disputed territory there is little to no diversity. Why? Why aren’t non Jews encouraged to expand into those areas?

Because of the conflict. Obviously. The Jewish people, for reasons perfectly justifiable, are reluctant to exchange their safety in their communities for diversity. (May the memories of Ari Fuld, and other victims of terrorism, be a blessing). And Israel, for reasons perfectly justifiable, is reluctant to formally annex both the territory and the Arab Palestinian peoples who are SUPPOSED to be seeking self-determination, remember?

Why aren't Jews being welcomed into Nabi Saleh? And where are the calls from the international community for diversity in Arab communities in the disputed territories? Where are the calls from the international community for Ahed and her family to take in returnees -- Jewish returnees? Where is the demand for diversity in Gaza? In Areas A and B?

Is Palestine calling for the unilateral withdrawal of Arab Palestinian peoples from Israeli territory? Are they willing to pick up and move 10,000 or more Arabs from Israel in a gesture of goodwill and ceding of territory?

What new Arab settlements have been built for Arabs outside that region to migrate to? That would be analogous to the Jewish settlements but no one is willing to back anything up with numbers.

There were more than 15,000 illegal Arab housing units put up in Jerusalem between 2014 and 2016. There have been dozens of illegal Arab settlements created. The EU has supported several expanding or new Arab communities.

Again, I'll ask you -- what is the OBJECTIVE standard here. I said the objective standard should be that both Israel and Palestine has equal right to annex the disputed territories. I said the objective standard should be that both Jews and Arabs should be permitted to reside there. Do you have a different objective standard?

Why aren't Jews being welcomed into Nabi Saleh?

They aren't? The problem with Jews moving into Palestine is that they always bring Israel with them. If Miko Peled, for example, built a house in Nabi Saleh I don't think anyone would have a problem with it.

And You don't see how racist is this statement?

+No. What is racist about it?

 

[P F Tinmore]

The US unilaterally took Jerusalem off the table.

The US did no such thing and even Trump claims so. What the US did was unilaterally recognize a sovereign Nation's right to choose its own capital in its own sovereign territory. Which is normative.

Unless you are going to try to argue that WEST Jerusalem is not part of sovereign Israel.

And East Jerusalem? Jerusalem is claimed by two adjoining factions, one of which captured the city in the most recent war.

He absolutely took it off the table.

He made a choice as to which side he would recognize as owning the undivided city.

And East Jerusalem? Jerusalem is claimed by two adjoining factions, one of which captured the city in the most recent war.

And it is illegal to acquire territory by war.

He absolutely took it off the table.

Even with all of his bluster, Trump cannot unilaterally change international law.

The Jewish nation has title to Jerusalem backed by international law.
That can't be changed either, You can play pretend all You want, but the only legitimacy for an Arab capital in Jerusalem goes through the generous agreement of the Jewish Nation.

Q. When was that agreement given to the Arab nation?

Jerusalem was part of Palestine when it was created in 1924.

 

[Mindful]

You don't think it's 'funny', Tinmore.

You just can't think of anything constructive to say.

 

[P F Tinmore]

According the World Bank and other sources that rank economies and standards of living, the West Bank is SOLIDLY "middle class" of the world. Just LOOK at the cities and infrastructure there in major Pali cities. .That brand new city that the Palis are building from scratch is a HUGE upper middle class development. (Go watch the videos promoting Rawahbi.) . Gaza is ranked as "lower middle class" in the world listings because of the embargo and the consistent encounters with the IDF.

Palestine is not a third world country except where Israel's theft and destruction has made it so.

The Jewish Nation managed to develop the country more than any other nation in history by a far shot.
Before that it was one of the most abandoned, poor and wrecked provinces of the Muslim empire.

One of the reasons for the Arab influx into the country.

Deflection. Also not true.

 

[Mindful]

According the World Bank and other sources that rank economies and standards of living, the West Bank is SOLIDLY "middle class" of the world. Just LOOK at the cities and infrastructure there in major Pali cities. .That brand new city that the Palis are building from scratch is a HUGE upper middle class development. (Go watch the videos promoting Rawahbi.) . Gaza is ranked as "lower middle class" in the world listings because of the embargo and the consistent encounters with the IDF.

Palestine is not a third world country except where Israel's theft and destruction has made it so.

The Jewish Nation managed to develop the country more than any other nation in history by a far shot.
Before that it was one of the most abandoned, poor and wrecked provinces of the Muslim empire.

One of the reasons for the Arab influx into the country.

Deflection. Also not true.

Ah, truth.

 

[P F Tinmore]

How many people of non Jewish ethnicity are encouraged to reside in settlements?

And how many people of Jewish ethnicity are encouraged to reside in Arab settlements in the disputed territories? I THINK, if you examined things objectively, you would find far more Arabs living peacefully and equally in Israel's territory than you will find Jews living peacefully and equally in Arab Palestine.

The fact that you ask the question as a one-sided question, is illuminating. If it is terra nullius, wouldn't both peoples have equal rights to reside there? Pending a final status agreement?

If it is terra nullius, wouldn't both peoples have equal rights to reside there? Pending a final status agreement?

It is not terra nullius, it is Palestine. The Palestinians have been living there since long before it legally became Palestine,

Under the Mandate you mean? When the Jews were Palestinians?

They were called Palestinians for political purposes. They never had any intention to become Palestinians.

What are you talking about?

I don't know how to explain it so that you would understand it.