Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians

[Coyote]

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ Coyote, et al,

Is there a strategy here at all? (RHETORICAL) Don't assume there is a clever plan or political strategy when there is a lack of a discoverable Middle Policy.

Each new president is a new negotiation.
What carrots did Trump give the Palestinians? Be specific.

(COMMENT)

The current White House is just playing at foreign policy. But really, when you hear any seriously intelligent question put to them on the issues that face us today, all you get is babble, orbiting around the issues by with no clear or straight direction in a circular running track.

The White House is directing its energies to a coercive prodding based on a "no choice" (empty set) political alternative. It is an induced situation to make it worse to see what response is generated out of the Arab Palestinians. If the Arab Palestinians simply do nothing in response, then they simply have lost their position with respect to Jerusalem. Unable to respond, the Arab Palestinians accept the default position that Jerusalem is the Israeli Capitol which makes the Israeli holdings sovereign territory.

There is no carrot for the Arab Palestinians. And as for the sugar in the hand we feed to the Israelis, it was just an early Christmas present.

What sticks has Israel ever really gotten? The US blocks them. Has Trump brandished any sticks to coerce the Israelis to the table?

I recall that Israel had pre conditions to be met...did she waive them?

(COMMENT)

Israel doesn't really have any negotiation pre-conditions other than that there be "NO" demands necessary to meet as a pre-condition to negotiations. The Israelis can sit on the status quo forever and it would not politically injure them. But the Arab Palestinians become ever more desperate as time trudges on. They are desperately trying to put pressure on the Israelis.

Most Respectfully,
R

Israel has preconditions for peace. It is de facto preconditions for talks because what is the point of talking peace if you have preconditions s for peace. In the it is the same thing.

Israel doesn't have preconditions for peace.
It has preconditions for passing security obligations to a likely failing fractured hostile government.
Asking for the other side to be eligible for representation is not a precondition, it's a basic logic of negotiations.

Preconditions involved recognizing Israel as a Jewish state and cessassation of attempts to get international recognition through the UN.

Here are all the preconditions. I would think they are kind of common sense if the Palestinians were truly thinking of ending the conflict, one way or another, that some of those conditions would need to be met in order to show Israel that they are serious about ending that conflict.

Abbas rejects Israel’s new preconditions for peace talks

I think the Palestinian pre condition, halting settlements is reasonable as well.

The point is both sides have preconditions.

 

[Coyote]

[ This is exactly why direct aid to the Palestinians should stop. What other people in conflict with another do this? ]

Palestinian Authority Pays Terrorist who Murdered Ari Fuld $3,000+ Advance Payment!

What do otherpeopke in conflict have to do with it? You frequently point out that Israel is singled out when other nations do the same thing. I am making the same point here. The Palestinians are being singled out.

If you cannot look at the other conflicts and see a difference, than no words or pictures will ever make a difference.

There is only one differnce. Ethnic identity.

 

[Sixties Fan]

[ This is exactly why direct aid to the Palestinians should stop. What other people in conflict with another do this? ]

Palestinian Authority Pays Terrorist who Murdered Ari Fuld $3,000+ Advance Payment!

There are plenty of people in conflict areas whos governments do terrible things but they recieve humsnitsrisn aid. Why are the Palestinians being singled out?

The Palestinians are the only ones who want to the destroy the country they started a war with.

They are the only ones who refused to end the conflict.

They are the only ones who insist on paying their Palestinians citizens and their families for murdering Jews or if they are killed in self defense by Jews.


When you finally can see the difference between all other conflicts and this one......

Let us know.

I think your bias is showing...

Is it my bias or your lack of knowledge about the subject?

You are uniquelly singling out the Palestinians and supporting removing humatarian aid when others do as bad or worse and recieve aid. How is that different than Israel being unfairly singled out?

No humanitarian aid is being removed. The Palestinians get only what their leaders allow them to get. If you are pro Hamas you get more than others who are not, or are not important to Hamas.
The same with the PA.
The money goes where they decide it goes.
The medicine goes where they decide it goes because they take a hold of it and sell it to the population, etc

Defunding UNWRA is vital. It needs to end. They are not refugees. They are simply being refused citizenship in the countries they are in, like Jordan, Lebanon, etc.

I will say it again.

You have no clear understanding of what this conflict is about, why removing aid to UNWRA is important and should have been done ages ago.

There is really nothing to cry about for the Palestinians as there are Millions more coming from Iran, because they want to see Israel destroyed, and from Qatar, the EU, etc, exactly for the same reason.

If those countries were giving money to actually build a Palestine and educate the people towards peace, and bring about any talks which could lead towards a Peace treaty as it happened with Egypt and Jordan I would be all for it.

But those agents are not for peace with Israel.

So, why should the USA, UN, EU, anyone, continue to give money which only goes towards promoting more and more terrorism against Israel and all of its citizens, not only the Jewish one?

Stop funding terrorism.
Demand that the PA follow the Oslo Accords.
Put an end to Gaza receiving weapons and endless ways to terrorize, not make peace with Israel.

The only way Egypt and Jordan came to the table to really want peace and ended up signing those Treaties is because they were left in financial difficulties and the wars against Israel were costing them too much.

It cost the Palestinians nothing because like a child who wrecks a car they should not be driving, they end up getting another one from those who want to see them continue wrecking their lives as long as they, someday, destroy Israel.

 

[Sixties Fan]

[ This is exactly why direct aid to the Palestinians should stop. What other people in conflict with another do this? ]

Palestinian Authority Pays Terrorist who Murdered Ari Fuld $3,000+ Advance Payment!

What do otherpeopke in conflict have to do with it? You frequently point out that Israel is singled out when other nations do the same thing. I am making the same point here. The Palestinians are being singled out.

If you cannot look at the other conflicts and see a difference, than no words or pictures will ever make a difference.

There is only one differnce. Ethnic identity.

WHAT ?????

 

[P F Tinmore]

Aid CAN be restructured so as to benefit them more directly and encourage better government and economy. That is what the OP is suggesting.

How?
I'm all for that....but
It's all too vague, in the meantime is see that this "US aid reconstruction" also means the use of Israeli markets and universities. Which begs the question that I've been asking since the beginning - at what cost?

How is it different from the crazy demand for Gazans to enter Israel during war in which they declare to "rip their hearts and drink their blood" - for j-o-b-s??

How? Well whst do you think of the OP's suggestions? So far no one seems to be actually talking about them

It is a good thing that the US and Belgium and others are waking up to what the Palestinians have always been about.

I believe that I have mentioned about the two countries before, as recent examples. More need to wake up and do the same.

Rewarding terror.
Encouraging terror.
Inciting their citizens to invade Israel, come in legally or illegally, and kill Jews.

If the Palestinians cared more about their people and aid, they would have come to the table and already make peace.

Instead, we are seeing them destroy the Rafah crossing, twice, refuse medicine, continue to incite on a daily basis for Palestinians to break into Israel, send endless fiery balloons and explosives into Israel .

What conflict is behaving that way?
Again, which government in the world is inciting its citizens to attack another country and kill its people, receive a salary if they are killed themselves or wounded, and its leaders never be made responsible
for these ideas?

The Palestinian population is indeed victim. But it is victim of the ideologies of Islam which so many of them embrace and will continue to embrace.

The Jews are not the friends of Islam, as far as Islam is concerned and must remain under Islam's control.

As I may have said before, there is nothing to worry about as far as the US and Belgium taking away aid from the Palestinians.

We still have Iran, Qatar, the EU and all others who will continue to furnish
anything the Palestinian leaders need to continue their war of destruction of Israel, and their absolute need to bring the Jewish people down to what they were before 1948. I do not need to explain the last remark.

If the Palestinians cared more about their people and aid, they would have come to the table and already make peace.

The only reason for the so called peace talks is to get the Palestinians to negotiate away their rights.

Fuck that.

 

[Hollie]

Aid CAN be restructured so as to benefit them more directly and encourage better government and economy. That is what the OP is suggesting.

How?
I'm all for that....but
It's all too vague, in the meantime is see that this "US aid reconstruction" also means the use of Israeli markets and universities. Which begs the question that I've been asking since the beginning - at what cost?

How is it different from the crazy demand for Gazans to enter Israel during war in which they declare to "rip their hearts and drink their blood" - for j-o-b-s??

How? Well whst do you think of the OP's suggestions? So far no one seems to be actually talking about them

It is a good thing that the US and Belgium and others are waking up to what the Palestinians have always been about.

I believe that I have mentioned about the two countries before, as recent examples. More need to wake up and do the same.

Rewarding terror.
Encouraging terror.
Inciting their citizens to invade Israel, come in legally or illegally, and kill Jews.

If the Palestinians cared more about their people and aid, they would have come to the table and already make peace.

Instead, we are seeing them destroy the Rafah crossing, twice, refuse medicine, continue to incite on a daily basis for Palestinians to break into Israel, send endless fiery balloons and explosives into Israel .

What conflict is behaving that way?
Again, which government in the world is inciting its citizens to attack another country and kill its people, receive a salary if they are killed themselves or wounded, and its leaders never be made responsible
for these ideas?

The Palestinian population is indeed victim. But it is victim of the ideologies of Islam which so many of them embrace and will continue to embrace.

The Jews are not the friends of Islam, as far as Islam is concerned and must remain under Islam's control.

As I may have said before, there is nothing to worry about as far as the US and Belgium taking away aid from the Palestinians.

We still have Iran, Qatar, the EU and all others who will continue to furnish
anything the Palestinian leaders need to continue their war of destruction of Israel, and their absolute need to bring the Jewish people down to what they were before 1948. I do not need to explain the last remark.

If the Palestinians cared more about their people and aid, they would have come to the table and already make peace.

The only reason for the so called peace talks is to get the Palestinians to negotiate away their rights.

Fuck that.

That’s not true and it’s why your self-assigned role of Islamic spokesbeard for Arabs-Moslems is such an embarrassment to thinking humans.

 

[Shusha]

Palestine has been uniquely called out for “punishment” despite the fact that other aid recipients have similar problems. Again, if it were Israel, folks would be calling it anti-semitism and condemning it.

There is nothing "unique" about aide being cut for Palestine. The Trump government has been notorious for cutting aide or calling for cutting aide to all sorts of countries for all sorts of reasons. Pakistan. India. Egypt. Honduras. Yemen. Mexico. El Salvador. Guatemala. Ghana. Vietnam. Zimbabwe.

There is nothing unique about Palestine. Unless you want to say they uniquely, as a government, not only incite terrorist acts but REWARD them. As a policy of government. That is abhorrent. It is inhumane. Is there another government which stands at the UN and proudly announces that millions of dollars of their annual budget goes toward paying terrorists to kill people?

US aide to Pakistan was cut because they didn't do enough to prevent and combat terrorism. Why shouldn't US aide to Palestine be cut for the abhorrent crime against humanity of having a government policy of paying wages to terrorists?!

 

[Shusha]

Preconditions involved recognizing Israel as a Jewish state ....

Recognition is, by definition, a universal condition to any peace talks. You can't even begin to talk peace if you fail to recognize your negotiating partner. And States, historically, are permitted to define themselves. Hence terms such as SELF-determination being rather common.

 

[Shusha]

Btw, cessation of hostilities is also a universal condition to any peace talks.

 

[Shusha]

I think the Palestinian pre condition, halting settlements is reasonable as well.

It can't be. Settlements are specifically addressed in existing treaties and documents as a subject for negotiations.

 

[Sixties Fan]

I Went to the original article. There it states at the end the following:

The U.S. has reason to be skeptical of the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and to be firm in rejecting long-term Hamas rule in Gaza, but this should not mean abandoning the Palestinians. That was not the Trump administration’s intent but, unfortunately, it is the impression left with most Palestinians.

'Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians

Now, that impression will only happen if the Palestinian leaders, in control of any and all communication, gives the population that impression, and we can bet that it will be exactly that.

With all the money and weapons pouring into Gaza and the PA from Iran, Qatar, EU and others, one can hardly say that they are being abandoned at all, when that is exactly what should be happening in order that, just as it happened to Egypt and Jordan, the Palestinian leaders will have a reason to actually WANT to negotiate and sign a Peace treaty with Israel.

3) Education? Oslo Accords should have taken care of that but the leaders, Arafat, Abbas and others, insist in the same curriculum.
- The land belongs to us, and we shall take it eventually by any means.
- The Jews are evil and wish to kill all Palestinians.
- There is no Jewish History in Palestine
- We shall continue to teach, in all forms and media, that the land is ours, the Jews are invaders, and there is only one way for our return, destroying Israel.

Just check the charters. Neither one has changed. The PA has not completed one promise from the Oslo Accords which allowed Arafat to return to Judea and the PA to be formed.

1) Billions of dollars given to the PA and Hamas. No infrastructure built that would make those two areas not dependent on Israel for electricity, water, or anything else.
Why are the PA and Hamas still dependent on Israel? Why have not Egypt or Jordan taken the issue since 1948?


The authors of the article can cry all they want about any country refusing to give money to the Palestinians or anyone else if they are for terrorism, or anything like that.

The People in Gaza and the PA are educated from birth about Islam's position on Jews and the rights of Jews to be sovereign of their own destiny.

They respond to it, and with the help of other Muslims, in other countries, keep up the idea of victimhood at the hands of Israel, when they, the Palestinian Arabs are the ones who started riots against Jews in 1920.

It is the Arabs, from 5 countries who invaded Israel in 1948.

It is many Arab countries again who invaded Israel in 1967 and 1973.

It is Muslim Arabs who, from Lebanon started wars against Israel.
It is the Palestinian Arabs who have refused to have a State as long as the Jews also got one from 1937 until present day.

Are these authors actually looking at the history and culture of the people they seem to think are going to be hurt by the US, Belgium, etc taking away some of the money donated to them?

Used for peace, I would be all for it.
But, since 1920, the opposite has been true.
Not one Pound, not one Shekel from the Palestinian leaders is used to promote Peace with Israel, while they use and abuse all the help they get from Israel itself.

So, dear authors of the article, in what way do you envision the Palestinians giving up their refugee claims, stopping the education of incitement and murder against Israel, and refusing at every turn any real negotiations for peace as it was done with Egypt and Jordan?

 

[Shusha]

The question is how to incentivize peace for the Palestinians. To put it in a local context, what would convince Tinmore to agree to a two-state solution based on mutual recognition and permanent cessation of hostilities?

 

[flacaltenn]

According the World Bank and other sources that rank economies and standards of living, the West Bank is SOLIDLY "middle class" of the world. Just LOOK at the cities and infrastructure there in major Pali cities. .That brand new city that the Palis are building from scratch is a HUGE upper middle class development. (Go watch the videos promoting Rawahbi.) . Gaza is ranked as "lower middle class" in the world listings because of the embargo and the consistent encounters with the IDF.

Palestine is not a third world country except where Israel's theft and destruction has made it so.

And yet, the Palestinians within the borders of the West Bank lead the best and most productive of ALL the non-assimilated ex-pat or refugees in the region. It's true. The REAL Pali victims of oppression are NOT in Israel..

That's not to make light of a 50 year "occupation gone badly" --- but the standard of living and normality of life in the major Pali cities within Israel FAR exceeds the instability and uncertainty and oppression that the rest of the "unsettled" face elsewhere.

 

[flacaltenn]

We just can't have the SAME running chase of the history of this conflict in every thread in the I/P forum. If your post is not about the current event of changes in the US aid policy to the Palestinians, dont' hit reply. EVERY THREAD has a UNIQUE topic. No one wants to read the SAME 2400 year history of the region over and over and over again.

If you want to discuss the HISTORY of this stalemate -- use the "sticky threads' in the forum listings or start your own thread. Posts off topic will be deleted and warned. If you don't CARE about this current event -- find another thread.

Not gonna be an another mod note here. Just thread bans and warnings and deletions..

 

[Sixties Fan]

[ An opinion about US, and others' aid to the Palestinians ]

The Palestinian Governing Authorities Support Terror and Should Be Cut Off

 

[Shusha]

[ An opinion about US, and others' aid to the Palestinians ]

The Palestinian Governing Authorities Support Terror and Should Be Cut Off

Thank you.

Why should Americans provide aide to a government which supports the murder of, in this case and others, AMERICAN citizens?

(This one hurts more than most as I have several friends in my world who knew Ari personally.)

 

[Mindful]

The United States is by far the largest donor of financial aid to the Palestinians, with this assistance touching nearly every aspect of life in the Palestinian Authority. But US President Donald Trump threatened on Tuesday to end this aid to the Palestinians, angered by Ramallah’s refusal to cooperate with the US’s efforts to jump-start Israeli-Palestinian peace talks after he declared Jerusalem the capital of Israel in December.

The Palestinians want East Jerusalem to be the capital of their future state.

Trump tweeted on Tuesday that Washington was paying the PA hundreds of millions of dollars a year “for nothing,” and complained that the US received “no appreciation or respect” in return.

How much aid does the US give Palestinians, and what’s it for?

 

[member]

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ Coyote, et al,

Is there a strategy here at all? (RHETORICAL) Don't assume there is a clever plan or political strategy when there is a lack of a discoverable Middle Policy.

Each new president is a new negotiation.
What carrots did Trump give the Palestinians? Be specific.

(COMMENT)

The current White House is just playing at foreign policy. But really, when you hear any seriously intelligent question put to them on the issues that face us today, all you get is babble, orbiting around the issues by with no clear or straight direction in a circular running track.

The White House is directing its energies to a coercive prodding based on a "no choice" (empty set) political alternative. It is an induced situation to make it worse to see what response is generated out of the Arab Palestinians. If the Arab Palestinians simply do nothing in response, then they simply have lost their position with respect to Jerusalem. Unable to respond, the Arab Palestinians accept the default position that Jerusalem is the Israeli Capitol which makes the Israeli holdings sovereign territory.

There is no carrot for the Arab Palestinians. And as for the sugar in the hand we feed to the Israelis, it was just an early Christmas present.

What sticks has Israel ever really gotten? The US blocks them. Has Trump brandished any sticks to coerce the Israelis to the table?

I recall that Israel had pre conditions to be met...did she waive them?

(COMMENT)

Israel doesn't really have any negotiation pre-conditions other than that there be "NO" demands necessary to meet as a pre-condition to negotiations. The Israelis can sit on the status quo forever and it would not politically injure them. But the Arab Palestinians become ever more desperate as time trudges on. They are desperately trying to put pressure on the Israelis.

Most Respectfully,
R

Israel has preconditions for peace. It is de facto preconditions for talks because what is the point of talking peace if you have preconditions s for peace. In the it is the same thing.

“I am not going to argue who Jerusalem should belong to [. . .].”



"But the reality is both sides feel:

strongly and passionately about it...."



"...both have long standing populations there and religious and historical connections. Up until now negotiations have recognized that it was part of the negotiation process.”


(imoo):

You can’t negotiate peace with terrorists …

I do not believe it. that you're naïve to terrorists.

a.f.a.i.c: Don’t get mixed up with the term resistor - we all know what it means….it’s just a fancy-schmancy, sugarcoated name for a Palestinian terrorist. The: “Israel created hamas, ij, etc” ideology. Sorry, it’s your "free horrible terrorist will..." not in God's name... LaLaLa, ka-boom.



Hey, I’m all for pt tickmore and his theatre group folk and face painting festival people to have their own…Country/state – without terrorists in the picture as leaders or anywhere near the place.....



and abbass….





i find them to be alike in their leadership. They let the terrorists handle their dirty work.


all his hand-shaking ....




















he knew what went along with being elected “President” for the Palestinian theatre group people:



- photo ops




- traveling around




ha! ....behind-the-scenes, they had a kite w/his name on it….


So, where’s the negotiators for peace?


Is it that........ you too, don’t see Hamass as a terrorist organization and see them in a different “resistance” light?


LIKE THIS? Is this better ? that resistance look....









The government of the Palestinian people are ½ terrorists and 1/2 asleep. Omg….



“Israel has preconditions for peace.”








i dunno...I bet they have a few legitimate "pre-conditions" set forth [for peace]. some i bet...



...revolve around the terrorists and their pre-conditons for peace charter.…




"It is de facto preconditions for talks because what is the point of talking peace if you have preconditions for peace. In the [ ?] it is the same thing.”




defacto- whaaah?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ Coyote, et al,

These are no preconditions for negotiation.

Preconditions involved recognizing Israel as a Jewish state and cessation of attempts to get international recognition through the UN.

(COMMENT)

These are long since past → the last session of negotiation mid-2014, the Arab Palestinians have demanded a freeze settlement building and release of convicted prisoners as conditions for further negotiations.

But the sit-down at the table is not the same thing as "Good Faith" as in the Principles of international law Concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States and the fulfillment of the obligations assumed by the Arab Palestines. IF the Arab Palestinians refuse to sit-down and make a 'Good Faith" effort THEN what. Does that mean that the status quo is acceptable to the Arab Palestinians? (RHETORICAL)

What are the consequences?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

Btw, cessation of hostilities is also a universal condition to any peace talks.

So when is Israel going to cease its hostilities?