Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians

[MJB12741]

Exactly why should they trust either the US or Israel's intentions regarding negotiatins at this point?

What is not to trust in either the US or Israel's intentions with respect to a peace treaty based on mutual negotiations? The last offer gave the Palestinians EVERYTHING they asked for -- including ALL of East Jerusalem and ALL of the Jewish Holy Places. It was refused.

Somehow that makes Israel and the US not trustworthy?

The US is absolutely no longer a trustworthy negotiator. Given the political climate NOW, Netanyahu and Likuds own derogatory statements on Palestinians - why should they trust that government or Trump?

Any negotiation involves carrots and sticks. The Pals have certainly received sticks. What good faith carrots have they been given by Trump? What sticks has Israel received? Zero to both?

Again, I ask what makes the US an untrustworthy negotiator?

The US unilaterally took Jerusalem off the table. Then followed with the ending of funding and closing th3 diplomatic mission.

How does that create a trustworthy relationship?

Let me put it another way. Trump states that Jerusalem is the Palestinian Capital and moves embassy there.

Israel protests the action and halts talks with the US.

Trump retaliates by cutting all aid to Israel.

How should Israel feel about the US as a good faith partner?

As to the rest, I disagree. Palestinians have received FAR more carrots than sticks. Since when is being offered EVERYTHING you want a stick? Since when is Israel unilaterally ceding territory (Gaza, Areas A and B) to Palestine a stick? Since when is millions of $ in foreign funds annually a stick? Indeed, Palestine has been offered carrot, after carrot, after carrot. None seems to be working. Palestine, thus far, hasn't even been required to give up TERRORISM and violence against innocent Israelis. Time for some sticks. Some true sticks.

Each new president is a new negotiation.

What carrots did Trump give the Palestinians? Be specific.

What sticks has Israel ever really gotten? The US blocks them. Has Trump brandished any sticks to coerce the Israelis to the table?

I recall that Israel had pre conditions to be met...did she waive them?

Oh please. Spare us your bleeding heart for the Palestinians as victims of Israel. Fact is 7 Arab nations unite to annihilate Israel, tell the Palestinians to leave until the mission is accomplished meanwhile leaving the Palestinians as refugees. 6 days of war & Israel wins. GAME OVER.

 

[Shusha]

I ask it as a one sided question because I am responding to a one sided comment

On the contrary. The comment you were responding to called for EQUALITY. That is, both peoples having equal rights to claim and annex disputed territory.

..the fact that Israel does a better job of diversity doesn’t alter the fact that when it comes to settlements built in occupied/disputed territory there is little to no diversity. Why? Why aren’t non Jews encouraged to expand into those areas?

Because of the conflict. Obviously. The Jewish people, for reasons perfectly justifiable, are reluctant to exchange their safety in their communities for diversity. (May the memories of Ari Fuld, and other victims of terrorism, be a blessing). And Israel, for reasons perfectly justifiable, is reluctant to formally annex both the territory and the Arab Palestinian peoples who are SUPPOSED to be seeking self-determination, remember?

Why aren't Jews being welcomed into Nabi Saleh? And where are the calls from the international community for diversity in Arab communities in the disputed territories? Where are the calls from the international community for Ahed and her family to take in returnees -- Jewish returnees? Where is the demand for diversity in Gaza? In Areas A and B?

Is Palestine calling for the unilateral withdrawal of Arab Palestinian peoples from Israeli territory? Are they willing to pick up and move 10,000 or more Arabs from Israel in a gesture of goodwill and ceding of territory?

What new Arab settlements have been built for Arabs outside that region to migrate to? That would be analogous to the Jewish settlements but no one is willing to back anything up with numbers.

There were more than 15,000 illegal Arab housing units put up in Jerusalem between 2014 and 2016. There have been dozens of illegal Arab settlements created. The EU has supported several expanding or new Arab communities.

Again, I'll ask you -- what is the OBJECTIVE standard here. I said the objective standard should be that both Israel and Palestine has equal right to annex the disputed territories. I said the objective standard should be that both Jews and Arabs should be permitted to reside there. Do you have a different objective standard?

 

[MJB12741]

I originally posted this in another thread as a response...but it's intriguing enough to deserve it's own discussion. I adamently oppose the Trump administration's unilateral cutting off of all aid to the Palestinians. Trump has no Middle East plan - all he believes in is punishing people into submission without regard to human suffering. However, this article offers some good ideas on how aid could be structured more effectively.



Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians

With prospects for diplomacy dim, with the need to change reality on the ground to restore a sense of possibility, and with past lessons showing that assistance should be used to promote development and reduce Israeli-Palestinian friction, we propose three recommendations for Congress to reprogram the $200 million fiscal 2018 monies to create a more stable economic, political and security environment in Gaza and the West Bank:

First, use that assistance to take water off the negotiating table. In the not too distant past, water negotiations were zero-sum, given the limited supply of water between the Mediterranean and Jordan River. Now, due to technological gains in water desalination, water use and reuse, water negotiations are no longer binary trade-offs. Instead, they can focus on the much simpler challenges of distribution and pricing.

What could this mean in practice? U.S. assistance in Gaza can fund a small solar field to power the existing Gaza Wastewater Treatment Plant, build up the community-based solar desalination units piloted by MIT, expand the UNICEF solar-fuel facility in Gaza’s Khan Younis neighborhood, initiate additional phases of the World Bank-funded North Gaza Emergency Sanitation Treatment plant, and repair water infrastructure degraded by three wars. Water also is directly linked to electricity; progress in water and sanitation will yield a better, more predictable power supply. There is real potential for small-scale, renewable power throughout Gaza, supplying energy at the community level while minimizing the risk of disruption historically associated with Gaza’s power plant.

Second, U.S. assistance should be used to substantially expand trade between Palestinians and Israelis. Consider the northern West Bank city of Jenin: Israel decided 15 years ago that if it opened a crossing point so Israeli Arabs could shop in the West Bank, it would be a stabilizer, even though the Second Intifada rebellion was ongoing. That calculation was successful; increased Palestinian trade has reduced unemployment in the northern West Bank from reportedly 50 percent in 2003 to below 20 percent now. These robust trading channels have opened sustainable opportunities for small and medium-sized businesses, improved local governance and fostered broad-based security for Palestinians and Israelis alike. In 2003, Jenin was the center for suicide bombers during the peak of the Second Intifada but now is one of the more successful Palestinian cities.

The Jenin model is replicable. American aid can help establish similar trading zones in the West Bank city of Qalqilya where Palestinian traders, shopkeepers and small businesses can sell directly to the large Israeli Arab community a few miles away. The Jenin model also can work in Gaza: Palestinian textile manufacturers have relationships with Israeli designers and European markets; Gaza historically supplied much of the fresh fruits and vegetables in Israel. These relationships could restart in months with the sustained, predictable opening of the Karem Shalom crossing and additional trading corridors from Erez or elsewhere.

Perhaps most interesting is the nascent but growing Gaza tech sector, where Gaza Sky Geeks is incubating Palestinian start-ups and more established firms are initiating software development with tech firms in Israel and beyond. Israel’s tech industry has more than 10,000 unfilled jobs which could be filled from the surplus of high-tech graduates in the West Bank and Gaza.

Third, education is a key foundation for a better future. Israelis and Americans have long criticized the Palestinian Authority for not educating its people for peace. Why not engage American universities and NGOs to elevate the Palestinian education system and prepare Palestinians for a 21st century economy? Bard College has provided long-term teacher training at Al Quds University in which teachers and principals earn an American master’s degree in education and serve as leaders in their schools. Imagine if education programming and people-to-people funding allowed the best cohort of Palestinian youth to study in Israeli universities, intern at Israeli high-tech firms, and do residencies at Israeli hospitals. ​

Well, let us consider what our financial aid results in. For Israel it results in endless worldly contributions for better lives, some of which are listed on the thread "Israel: Helping To Make A Better World." And for Palestinians --- you tell us. Fair enough?

Thread isnt about aid to Israel.

But it is about financial aid to Palestinians. And you still have not told us what good it does for even the Palestinians, let alone the world.

 

[Shusha]

Has Trump brandished any sticks to coerce the Israelis to the table?

I recall that Israel had pre conditions to be met...did she waive them?

Israel does not NEED any sticks to be brought to the table. Israel has come to the table, with generous offers for peace, for DECADES. The last was only ten years ago.

Israeli pre-conditions? What would those be? What pre-conditions do you think Israel demands?

 

[Shusha]

The US unilaterally took Jerusalem off the table.

The US did no such thing and even Trump claims so. What the US did was unilaterally recognize a sovereign Nation's right to choose its own capital in its own sovereign territory. Which is normative.

Unless you are going to try to argue that WEST Jerusalem is not part of sovereign Israel.

 

[Coyote]

I ask it as a one sided question because I am responding to a one sided comment

On the contrary. The comment you were responding to called for EQUALITY. That is, both peoples having equal rights to claim and annex disputed territory.

..the fact that Israel does a better job of diversity doesn’t alter the fact that when it comes to settlements built in occupied/disputed territory there is little to no diversity. Why? Why aren’t non Jews encouraged to expand into those areas?

Because of the conflict. Obviously. The Jewish people, for reasons perfectly justifiable, are reluctant to exchange their safety in their communities for diversity. (May the memories of Ari Fuld, and other victims of terrorism, be a blessing). And Israel, for reasons perfectly justifiable, is reluctant to formally annex both the territory and the Arab Palestinian peoples who are SUPPOSED to be seeking self-determination, remember?

Why aren't Jews being welcomed into Nabi Saleh? And where are the calls from the international community for diversity in Arab communities in the disputed territories? Where are the calls from the international community for Ahed and her family to take in returnees -- Jewish returnees? Where is the demand for diversity in Gaza? In Areas A and B?

Is Palestine calling for the unilateral withdrawal of Arab Palestinian peoples from Israeli territory? Are they willing to pick up and move 10,000 or more Arabs from Israel in a gesture of goodwill and ceding of territory?

What new Arab settlements have been built for Arabs outside that region to migrate to? That would be analogous to the Jewish settlements but no one is willing to back anything up with numbers.

There were more than 15,000 illegal Arab housing units put up in Jerusalem between 2014 and 2016. There have been dozens of illegal Arab settlements created. The EU has supported several expanding or new Arab communities.

Again, I'll ask you -- what is the OBJECTIVE standard here. I said the objective standard should be that both Israel and Palestine has equal right to annex the disputed territories. I said the objective standard should be that both Jews and Arabs should be permitted to reside there. Do you have a different objective standard?

On the first part...this was what I had responded to and was one sided unless I interpreted it wrong and you agree that people of certain ethnicities are (de facto) prohibited from residing in settlements and it also reeks?

What makes it ethically problematic is when people of certain ethnicities (or nationalities) are encouraged to reside there and people of other ethnicities (nationalities) are prohibited from residing there. That reeks of what it is.

On the rest, we are really talking about the disputed or occupied territories where settlement activity is going on...not Gaza...not Israel proper. Every Arab “settlement” you refer to is illegal. Contrast that with the Jewish settlements. How many legal Jewish settlements are there? How many legal Arab settlements?

 

[Coyote]

The US unilaterally took Jerusalem off the table.

The US did no such thing and even Trump claims so. What the US did was unilaterally recognize a sovereign Nation's right to choose its own capital in its own sovereign territory. Which is normative.

Unless you are going to try to argue that WEST Jerusalem is not part of sovereign Israel.

And East Jerusalem? Jerusalem is claimed by two adjoining factions, one of which captured the city in the most recent war.

He absolutely took it off the table.

He made a choice as to which side he would recognize as owning the undivided city.

 

[flacaltenn]

Exactly why should they trust either the US or Israel's intentions regarding negotiatins at this point?

The issue is "who is they".. Who's speaking for all the Palestinians? Which is the SAME ISSUE in sending foreign aid. Who is GETTING IT and managing it and distributing it? There is no real functional Palestinian Authority anymore. No one org to hold RESPONSIBLE for peace negotiations OR the use of foreign aid monies.

You know how I feel about pressuring Palestinians into a Western style nation govt that is not historically, culturally, acceptable to the way that Arabs naturally organize. They organize by tribal, sectarian, familial lines of authority. NOT a PLO or PA that just confirms their fears about graft and corruption and bias in distributing things.

That's largely why Hamas was able to make inroads in the West Bank elections. BECAUSE the Fatah dominated PA WAS filled with graft and corrruption and bias.

They NEED new leadership.. They NEED to negotiate. But the US and western powers expect to see a UNITY NATIONAL govt -- and that is why there's never been solutions to this problem..

I don’t disagree with that ... in fact I started a thread on it.

How is stripping humanitarian aid going to help?

According the World Bank and other sources that rank economies and standards of living, the West Bank is SOLIDLY "middle class" of the world. Just LOOK at the cities and infrastructure there in major Pali cities. .That brand new city that the Palis are building from scratch is a HUGE upper middle class development. (Go watch the videos promoting Rawahbi.) . Gaza is ranked as "lower middle class" in the world listings because of the embargo and the consistent encounters with the IDF.

So it's NOT necessarily dire. Although they are overly dependent on foreign aid, they are not a welfare case. Contrast that to the 300,000 Palis CONFINED to ad hoc camps in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon where the situations ARE dire.

As US Administrations see it -- the Palis ARE the West Bank and Fatah. But as the Palis see it, they need to represent the interests of Gaza and the ex-pats in self-exile and containment in the ENTIRE neighborhood or there is no sense in making truces and agreements. There needs to be a unity government and a lasting and legitimate leadership to negotiate peace, but that is never gonna happen with a top-heavy, western style government like the PA.

That Palestine City State idea IS the better solution. It puts 80% of the governing power into the autonomous LOCAL govts, and leaves the top level federation govt as a diplomatic, currency, immigration, tariff, and legal review, LIGHTWEIGHT superstructure that CAN speak to the world under the Palestine flag.

 

[flacaltenn]

And East Jerusalem? Jerusalem is claimed by two adjoining factions, one of which captured the city in the most recent war.

He absolutely took it off the table.

Again, the positioning of the US embassy did no such thing. The East entries to Jerusalem are well established Palestinian villages. And they are getting consumed by the infrastructure (highways, urban growth) of Jerusalem as a whole. This is the 50th year of an unsolved occupation. What do you expect?

50 years of a dynamic, western style Israel doing what modern western societies do. While the "occupied" face their own expansion pressures, but with no 1st string team on the field to negotiate or represent them. ALL solutions START by creating that "defense team". That effort is hindered by the historical preferences for local vesting of political and govt power and innate, justified fear of strong national govt structure..

At some point, this may have to be done "in their name" and held in trust by a REGIONAL coalition of tthe neighbors.Because the clock is running, nothings happening, and the contest isn't really worth watching..

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ Coyote, et al,

Is there a strategy here at all? (RHETORICAL) Don't assume there is a clever plan or political strategy when there is a lack of a discoverable Middle Policy.

Each new president is a new negotiation.
What carrots did Trump give the Palestinians? Be specific.

(COMMENT)

The current White House is just playing at foreign policy. But really, when you hear any seriously intelligent question put to them on the issues that face us today, all you get is babble, orbiting around the issues by with no clear or straight direction in a circular running track.

The White House is directing its energies to a coercive prodding based on a "no choice" (empty set) political alternative. It is an induced situation to make it worse to see what response is generated out of the Arab Palestinians. If the Arab Palestinians simply do nothing in response, then they simply have lost their position with respect to Jerusalem. Unable to respond, the Arab Palestinians accept the default position that Jerusalem is the Israeli Capitol which makes the Israeli holdings sovereign territory.

There is no carrot for the Arab Palestinians. And as for the sugar in the hand we feed to the Israelis, it was just an early Christmas present.

What sticks has Israel ever really gotten? The US blocks them. Has Trump brandished any sticks to coerce the Israelis to the table?

I recall that Israel had pre conditions to be met...did she waive them?

(COMMENT)

Israel doesn't really have any negotiation pre-conditions other than that there be "NO" demands necessary to meet as a pre-condition to negotiations. The Israelis can sit on the status quo forever and it would not politically injure them. But the Arab Palestinians become ever more desperate as time trudges on. They are desperately trying to put pressure on the Israelis.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[flacaltenn]

It's kinda like sitting around expecting the American Indian nation to agree on a UNIFIED settlement with the US Government.

 

[Shusha]

The US unilaterally took Jerusalem off the table.

The US did no such thing and even Trump claims so. What the US did was unilaterally recognize a sovereign Nation's right to choose its own capital in its own sovereign territory. Which is normative.

Unless you are going to try to argue that WEST Jerusalem is not part of sovereign Israel.

And East Jerusalem? Jerusalem is claimed by two adjoining factions, one of which captured the city in the most recent war.

He absolutely took it off the table.

He made a choice as to which side he would recognize as owning the undivided city.

Last I checked the embassy was in WEST Jerusalem. So how did he take EAST Jerusalem off the table? And where did he claim that Jerusalem is to be undivided?! He has actually claimed, clearly, to the contrary.

And its properly the LIBERATED city in war. The city was illegally occupied by a foreign power with no legal right to her (that would be Jordan). Whether it was Israel's or under the sovereignty of a non-existent but future state of Arab Palestine is irrelevant. The city was liberated from foreign control.

 

[Coyote]

The US unilaterally took Jerusalem off the table.

The US did no such thing and even Trump claims so. What the US did was unilaterally recognize a sovereign Nation's right to choose its own capital in its own sovereign territory. Which is normative.

Unless you are going to try to argue that WEST Jerusalem is not part of sovereign Israel.

And East Jerusalem? Jerusalem is claimed by two adjoining factions, one of which captured the city in the most recent war.

He absolutely took it off the table.

He made a choice as to which side he would recognize as owning the undivided city.

Last I checked the embassy was in WEST Jerusalem. So how did he take EAST Jerusalem off the table? And where did he claim that Jerusalem is to be undivided?! He has actually claimed, clearly, to the contrary.

And its properly the LIBERATED city in war. The city was illegally occupied by a foreign power with no legal right to her (that would be Jordan). Whether it was Israel's or under the sovereignty of a non-existent but future state of Arab Palestine is irrelevant. The city was liberated from foreign control.

It wasn’t liberated, that is playing with words. There was no other nation in existence to lay claim to it.

 

[Shusha]

On the first part...this was what I had responded to and was one sided unless I interpreted it wrong and you agree that people of certain ethnicities are (de facto) prohibited from residing in settlements and it also reeks?

What makes it ethically problematic is when people of certain ethnicities (or nationalities) are encouraged to reside there and people of other ethnicities (nationalities) are prohibited from residing there. That reeks of what it is.

Can you link me to the international calls for the end of building or expansion by Arabs in Area C?

 

[Shusha]

The US unilaterally took Jerusalem off the table.

The US did no such thing and even Trump claims so. What the US did was unilaterally recognize a sovereign Nation's right to choose its own capital in its own sovereign territory. Which is normative.

Unless you are going to try to argue that WEST Jerusalem is not part of sovereign Israel.

And East Jerusalem? Jerusalem is claimed by two adjoining factions, one of which captured the city in the most recent war.

He absolutely took it off the table.

He made a choice as to which side he would recognize as owning the undivided city.

Last I checked the embassy was in WEST Jerusalem. So how did he take EAST Jerusalem off the table? And where did he claim that Jerusalem is to be undivided?! He has actually claimed, clearly, to the contrary.

And its properly the LIBERATED city in war. The city was illegally occupied by a foreign power with no legal right to her (that would be Jordan). Whether it was Israel's or under the sovereignty of a non-existent but future state of Arab Palestine is irrelevant. The city was liberated from foreign control.

It wasn’t liberated, that is playing with words. There was no other nation in existence to lay claim to it.

Um. Yeah it was liberated. It was liberated from a foreign power who used military force to cross an international boundary and lay claim to it with no legal right to it. The nation which legally laid claim to it was (is) Israel. Legally correctly. So, its Israel. And it was liberated.

There was a time and chance that Israel would cede it. It was offered again and again and again and again. I believe that time has passed. And rightly so.

 

[Coyote]

The US unilaterally took Jerusalem off the table.

The US did no such thing and even Trump claims so. What the US did was unilaterally recognize a sovereign Nation's right to choose its own capital in its own sovereign territory. Which is normative.

Unless you are going to try to argue that WEST Jerusalem is not part of sovereign Israel.

Trump recognized Jerusalim, not west, but in entirety. He has done, specifying undivided from his campaign days.

Donald Trump: I will 'recognize Jerusalem as the undivided capital of the State of Israel'

Jerusalem is off the table.

Why should the apakestinians trust the US as an honest broker?

 

[Shusha]

The US unilaterally took Jerusalem off the table.

The US did no such thing and even Trump claims so. What the US did was unilaterally recognize a sovereign Nation's right to choose its own capital in its own sovereign territory. Which is normative.

Unless you are going to try to argue that WEST Jerusalem is not part of sovereign Israel.

Trump recognized Jerusalim, not west, but in entirety. He has done, specifying undivided from his campaign days.

Donald Trump: I will 'recognize Jerusalem as the undivided capital of the State of Israel'

Jerusalem is off the table.

Why should the apakestinians trust the US as an honest broker?

Ah well. I'm not convinced that the possibility of part of Jerusalem coming under the sovereignty of an eventual future Palestine is "off the table". It will certainly be a hard sell.

Truthfully, if a hundred years of carrots doesn't bring Palestine to the table I can't think what will. Maybe it's time for some sticks.

 

[rylah]

The US unilaterally took Jerusalem off the table.

The US did no such thing and even Trump claims so. What the US did was unilaterally recognize a sovereign Nation's right to choose its own capital in its own sovereign territory. Which is normative.

Unless you are going to try to argue that WEST Jerusalem is not part of sovereign Israel.

And East Jerusalem? Jerusalem is claimed by two adjoining factions, one of which captured the city in the most recent war.

He absolutely took it off the table.

He made a choice as to which side he would recognize as owning the undivided city.

Last I checked the embassy was in WEST Jerusalem. So how did he take EAST Jerusalem off the table? And where did he claim that Jerusalem is to be undivided?! He has actually claimed, clearly, to the contrary.

And its properly the LIBERATED city in war. The city was illegally occupied by a foreign power with no legal right to her (that would be Jordan). Whether it was Israel's or under the sovereignty of a non-existent but future state of Arab Palestine is irrelevant. The city was liberated from foreign control.

It wasn’t liberated, that is playing with words. There was no other nation in existence to lay claim to it.

Jerusalem has been the capital of the Jewish nation, longer than London of the English.
And it wasn't ever a capital of an Arab nation, the Arab occupation specifically built a separate city to be their capital instead of Jerusalem - called Ramle.
Why should Jerusalem be a capital of an Arab nation?

There're no games here - Jerusalem was liberated, the Jewish nation both holds the title legally and culturally, as a sacred trust of the civilization, anything else is antisemitic bigotry and insult to intelligence.

Excuse me for going off topic, I though it was crucial to make that point.
But this is probably an example of how Palestinian aid has become another politicized tool against Israel, rather than an effective tool for constructive development of the society.

That doesn't change that fact that money won't buy them Jerusalem, or an effective government, or change their failing priorities.

 

[Mindful]

The US unilaterally took Jerusalem off the table.

The US did no such thing and even Trump claims so. What the US did was unilaterally recognize a sovereign Nation's right to choose its own capital in its own sovereign territory. Which is normative.

Unless you are going to try to argue that WEST Jerusalem is not part of sovereign Israel.

And East Jerusalem? Jerusalem is claimed by two adjoining factions, one of which captured the city in the most recent war.

He absolutely took it off the table.

He made a choice as to which side he would recognize as owning the undivided city.

Last I checked the embassy was in WEST Jerusalem. So how did he take EAST Jerusalem off the table? And where did he claim that Jerusalem is to be undivided?! He has actually claimed, clearly, to the contrary.

And its properly the LIBERATED city in war. The city was illegally occupied by a foreign power with no legal right to her (that would be Jordan). Whether it was Israel's or under the sovereignty of a non-existent but future state of Arab Palestine is irrelevant. The city was liberated from foreign control.

Was Palestine mentioned during the Jordanian occupation?

 

[P F Tinmore]

How many people of non Jewish ethnicity are encouraged to reside in settlements?

And how many people of Jewish ethnicity are encouraged to reside in Arab settlements in the disputed territories? I THINK, if you examined things objectively, you would find far more Arabs living peacefully and equally in Israel's territory than you will find Jews living peacefully and equally in Arab Palestine.

The fact that you ask the question as a one-sided question, is illuminating. If it is terra nullius, wouldn't both peoples have equal rights to reside there? Pending a final status agreement?

If it is terra nullius, wouldn't both peoples have equal rights to reside there? Pending a final status agreement?

It is not terra nullius, it is Palestine. The Palestinians have been living there since long before it legally became Palestine,