Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians

[Shusha]

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ Coyote, et al,

That is a "No Win" question.

Do you believe Israel is always right?

(COMMENT)

NO!

v/r
R

I agree, but while I hear plenty of (often valid) criticism of the Palestinians, criticism of Israel is met with fierce denial and redirection.

Criticism like Tinmore's justification of murdering Jews, including children, because they shouldn't be living in "Palestine"?

The only person who even makes an attempt to provide valid criticism of Israel and post it is you.

A

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ Coyote, et al,

That is a "No Win" question.

Do you believe Israel is always right?

(COMMENT)

NO!

v/r
R

I agree, but while I hear plenty of (often valid) criticism of the Palestinians, criticism of Israel is met with fierce denial and redirection.

Criticism like Tinmore's justification of murdering Jews, including children, because they shouldn't be living in "Palestine"?

The only person who even makes an attempt to provide valid criticism of Israel and post it is you.

In one of his infamous YOU TUBE Videos he posted HASIDIC Jews who said Israel shouldn’t even exist. He was told several times that it’s because of their Religious beliefs they don’t believe Israel should exist until the Messiah comes but it goes into one ear and out the other. When I pointed out that Israel’s destruction would be against “ International Law” his response was “ not really” This is the Mentality we are dealing with

Oh hey, I know. We had one long thread about whether or not Israel DOES exist. Which is just foolishness. Imagine a whole thread about, "France does not exist in law".

 

[USAF 2023]

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ Coyote, et al,

That is a "No Win" question.

Do you believe Israel is always right?

(COMMENT)

NO!

v/r
R

I agree, but while I hear plenty of (often valid) criticism of the Palestinians, criticism of Israel is met with fierce denial and redirection.

Criticism like Tinmore's justification of murdering Jews, including children, because they shouldn't be living in "Palestine"?

The only person who even makes an attempt to provide valid criticism of Israel and post it is you.

A

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ Coyote, et al,

That is a "No Win" question.

Do you believe Israel is always right?

(COMMENT)

NO!

v/r
R

I agree, but while I hear plenty of (often valid) criticism of the Palestinians, criticism of Israel is met with fierce denial and redirection.

Criticism like Tinmore's justification of murdering Jews, including children, because they shouldn't be living in "Palestine"?

The only person who even makes an attempt to provide valid criticism of Israel and post it is you.

In one of his infamous YOU TUBE Videos he posted HASIDIC Jews who said Israel shouldn’t even exist. He was told several times that it’s because of their Religious beliefs they don’t believe Israel should exist until the Messiah comes but it goes into one ear and out the other. When I pointed out that Israel’s destruction would be against “ International Law” his response was “ not really” This is the Mentality we are dealing with

Oh hey, I know. We had one long thread about whether or not Israel DOES exist. Which is just foolishness. Imagine a whole thread about, "France does not exist in law".

According to him there wasn’t a “ Law” that the Jewish Nation should exist. I think he never heard of May 14, 1948. What exactly is his “ claim?”

 

[Shusha]

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ Coyote, et al,

That is a "No Win" question.

(COMMENT)

NO!

v/r
R

I agree, but while I hear plenty of (often valid) criticism of the Palestinians, criticism of Israel is met with fierce denial and redirection.

Criticism like Tinmore's justification of murdering Jews, including children, because they shouldn't be living in "Palestine"?

The only person who even makes an attempt to provide valid criticism of Israel and post it is you.

A

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ Coyote, et al,

That is a "No Win" question.

(COMMENT)

NO!

v/r
R

I agree, but while I hear plenty of (often valid) criticism of the Palestinians, criticism of Israel is met with fierce denial and redirection.

Criticism like Tinmore's justification of murdering Jews, including children, because they shouldn't be living in "Palestine"?

The only person who even makes an attempt to provide valid criticism of Israel and post it is you.

In one of his infamous YOU TUBE Videos he posted HASIDIC Jews who said Israel shouldn’t even exist. He was told several times that it’s because of their Religious beliefs they don’t believe Israel should exist until the Messiah comes but it goes into one ear and out the other. When I pointed out that Israel’s destruction would be against “ International Law” his response was “ not really” This is the Mentality we are dealing with

Oh hey, I know. We had one long thread about whether or not Israel DOES exist. Which is just foolishness. Imagine a whole thread about, "France does not exist in law".

According to him there wasn’t a “ Law” that the Jewish Nation should exist. I think he never heard of May 14, 1948. What exactly is his “ claim?”

As I understand it, it goes something like this: Invasion and colonization became illegal (conveniently) at the exact same moment in time when the Jewish people began to return to their historical homeland. Since the Jewish people aren't really a "people" with inherent, inviolable rights both their claim and their return to their historical homeland is illegal and they are nothing but invaders and colonizers and their presence in the territory known as "Palestine" is illegal, which makes them available for justifiable killing.

 

[USAF 2023]

I agree, but while I hear plenty of (often valid) criticism of the Palestinians, criticism of Israel is met with fierce denial and redirection.

Criticism like Tinmore's justification of murdering Jews, including children, because they shouldn't be living in "Palestine"?

The only person who even makes an attempt to provide valid criticism of Israel and post it is you.

A

I agree, but while I hear plenty of (often valid) criticism of the Palestinians, criticism of Israel is met with fierce denial and redirection.

Criticism like Tinmore's justification of murdering Jews, including children, because they shouldn't be living in "Palestine"?

The only person who even makes an attempt to provide valid criticism of Israel and post it is you.

In one of his infamous YOU TUBE Videos he posted HASIDIC Jews who said Israel shouldn’t even exist. He was told several times that it’s because of their Religious beliefs they don’t believe Israel should exist until the Messiah comes but it goes into one ear and out the other. When I pointed out that Israel’s destruction would be against “ International Law” his response was “ not really” This is the Mentality we are dealing with

Oh hey, I know. We had one long thread about whether or not Israel DOES exist. Which is just foolishness. Imagine a whole thread about, "France does not exist in law".

According to him there wasn’t a “ Law” that the Jewish Nation should exist. I think he never heard of May 14, 1948. What exactly is his “ claim?”

As I understand it, it goes something like this: Invasion and colonization became illegal (conveniently) at the exact same moment in time when the Jewish people began to return to their historical homeland. Since the Jewish people aren't really a "people" with inherent, inviolable rights both their claim and their return to their historical homeland is illegal and they are nothing but invaders and colonizers and their presence in the territory known as "Palestine" is illegal, which makes them available for justifiable killing.

Got it! I don’t know the depth of History the way other posters do but even I know that “ Palestine” is a territory, not a Country

 

[flacaltenn]

If the post is NOT about changes to Palestinian aid as a current event -- it's way off topic. Don't hit reply if it's NOT about the OP topic.

 

[Coyote]

If the post is NOT about changes to Palestinian aid as a current event -- it's way off topic. Don't hit reply if it's NOT about the OP topic.

I was starting to clean the thread and then saw this, thanks

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ ILOVEISRAEL, et al,

In terms of "reshaping aid" to the entity called Palestine, which means something different than the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) believe it to be, it neither effects the US policy application of "aid" nor the chances for an effective transformation process in building a viable set of institutions that induce positive change in the economy and organizations of the infrastructure.

Got it! I don’t know the depth of History the way other posters do but even I know that “ Palestine” is a territory, not a Country

(COMMENT)

The Prospectus for the enterprise called "Palestine" has never been written. There is nothing provided donor nations with material information about fundamental projects, construction of infrastructure priorities, and improvements to existing infrastructure, such as a description of Palestine's business, revenue management, reinvestments in Palestine and the projected financial improvements over time.

All the Ramallah and Gaza Governments do is line the pockets of the HoAP Leadership.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

All the Ramallah and Gaza Governments do is line the pockets of the HoAP Leadership.

Good point. Palestine Today

Abbas has continued to hold the leadership on an illegal basis and with the support of the international community and the Arab states,​

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ ILOVEISRAEL, et al,

In terms of "reshaping aid" to the entity called Palestine, which means something different than the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) believe it to be, it neither effects the US policy application of "aid" nor the chances for an effective transformation process in building a viable set of institutions that induce positive change in the economy and organizations of the infrastructure.

Got it! I don’t know the depth of History the way other posters do but even I know that “ Palestine” is a territory, not a Country

(COMMENT)

The Prospectus for the enterprise called "Palestine" has never been written. There is nothing provided donor nations with material information about fundamental projects, construction of infrastructure priorities, and improvements to existing infrastructure, such as a description of Palestine's business, revenue management, reinvestments in Palestine and the projected financial improvements over time.

All the Ramallah and Gaza Governments do is line the pockets of the HoAP Leadership.

Most Respectfully,
R

There is nothing provided donor nations with material information about fundamental projects, construction of infrastructure priorities,

International Aid & the Palestinians: Supporting Israel's Occupation?

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ Coyote, et al,

That is a "No Win" question.

(COMMENT)

NO!

v/r
R

I agree, but while I hear plenty of (often valid) criticism of the Palestinians, criticism of Israel is met with fierce denial and redirection.

Criticism like Tinmore's justification of murdering Jews, including children, because they shouldn't be living in "Palestine"?

The only person who even makes an attempt to provide valid criticism of Israel and post it is you.

A

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ Coyote, et al,

That is a "No Win" question.

(COMMENT)

NO!

v/r
R

I agree, but while I hear plenty of (often valid) criticism of the Palestinians, criticism of Israel is met with fierce denial and redirection.

Criticism like Tinmore's justification of murdering Jews, including children, because they shouldn't be living in "Palestine"?

The only person who even makes an attempt to provide valid criticism of Israel and post it is you.

In one of his infamous YOU TUBE Videos he posted HASIDIC Jews who said Israel shouldn’t even exist. He was told several times that it’s because of their Religious beliefs they don’t believe Israel should exist until the Messiah comes but it goes into one ear and out the other. When I pointed out that Israel’s destruction would be against “ International Law” his response was “ not really” This is the Mentality we are dealing with

Oh hey, I know. We had one long thread about whether or not Israel DOES exist. Which is just foolishness. Imagine a whole thread about, "France does not exist in law".

According to him there wasn’t a “ Law” that the Jewish Nation should exist. I think he never heard of May 14, 1948. What exactly is his “ claim?”

You completely missed my point.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I think reducing or altering aid in a strategic fashion is useful, but that is not what is happening.

Strategic aide to Palestine? What would you see as a useful way of reducing or altering aide to Palestine?

Aid that bypasses governments and goes directly to the people. Schools, infrastructure, economic development that directly supports entrepreneurs and small local businesses. Flac pointed the problems Palestinians have because all their trade involves Israel. They need to develop other partnerships. Why haven’t they? Does Israel restrict it? Aid can go towards developing an independent energy and water sources so Israel does not control it. Aid can be strategic by making some of it dependent on certain reforms, such as elections and anti corruption measures.

Flac pointed the problems Palestinians have because all their trade involves Israel. They need to develop other partnerships. Why haven’t they? Does Israel restrict it? Aid can go towards developing an independent energy and water sources so Israel does not control it.

You are hitting on some relevant points.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Does that mean you support the ally no matter what they do?

The Tolstoy quote is informing on both sides.


Why should we not be an honest broker? When we are not, the results are seldom enduring. You can’t have true and lasting peace if it is one sided.

Can't have peace without a spine.
Honesty is not an absence of moral decision in favor of an artificial image of neutrality.
One supports what is right and rejects what is wrong.

Do you believe Israel is always right?

Not always, I know Israel is fundamentally good.
Yes I do make that distinction, I know what is good and bad, anyone with a spine makes that decision, anyone without runs into the gray area in fear of upsetting someone.

Perhaps it is spineless to paint complex situations as black and white.

A Palestinian doctor, who had worked extensively with the Israelis in medical work, lost his children when Israel bombed Gaza during Operation Cast Lead, I believe.

Where is the black and white? Who is bad? Who is good?

It is always good to take the evidence from both sides:

The Israeli government is claiming that Hamas spotters were the targets of IDF shells that led to the death of three of Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish's daughters and one of his nieces during Operation Cast Lead in 2009.


According to affidavits filed by the Israeli government in the Be'er Sheva District Court, Hamas spotters were identified in the same building as the Abuelaish family. Furthermore, the state is also reiterating the claim that Palestinian weapons depots located in the building were what caused the deaths, rather than IDF artillery fire.

Lt. Col. Eran Tuval, commander of the IDF's Materials and Chemical Branch, examined fragments taken from the girls and found chemical components on them which IDF weaponry did not contain. On the other hand, the examination found that the chemicals were used in weapons used by Hamas. As such, he concluded that there was indeed an enemy ammunition dump in the same building.

(full article online)

IDF blames Hamas for death of Palestinian doctors 3 daughters


There will be hundreds, if not thousands of Palestinian civilian lives saved if Hamas stops hiding weapons, rockets etc in hospitals, schools, mosques and other forbidden places, and totally stops firing rockets or hiding in civilian areas.

There will be hundreds, if not thousands of Palestinian civilian lives saved if Hamas stops hiding weapons, rockets etc in hospitals, schools, mosques and other forbidden places, and totally stops firing rockets or hiding in civilian areas.

Israel's usual duck.

 

[P F Tinmore]

We agree that the economy needs to be developed. How best to do that?

We do? Maybe they don’t have the funds. Their economy is in shambles.

Are you arguing that PA does not have enough resources to support its people? Or are you arguing that the Palestinian economy needs to be developed? Or are you arguing that they have the resources, but are misallocating them?

All three to some extent.

It lacks much in the way of resources, it needs to be developed and corruption is a problem.

I disagree vehemently that they lack adequate resources. They lack adequate will.

We agree that the economy needs to be developed. How best to do that?

Misallocation of resources is a problem. How best to fix that?

Get Israel out of the way.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The problem with this whole thread is that, once again, someone else is supposed to be responsible for the Palestinian people.

That has to stop happening. Whether the Palestinian people take care of themselves on a small territory or a larger territory or even on the whole territory, ultimately it has to be them taking care of themselves.

The conflict simply can't end until they do. Until they love their children more than they want to kill ours.

Whether the Palestinian people take care of themselves on a small territory or a larger territory or even on the whole territory, ultimately it has to be them taking care of themselves.

But how do you get Israel to stop keeping that from happening?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Is there such a thing as a Palestinian people?

Sure there is.
---------------
The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”​

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ Coyote, et al,

In the case of in which America is the Ally of Israel, and Israel in return is an ally of America, the issue of honesty is important because it creates a relationship of mutual trust.

“Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.”e
............................................................................................― Leo Tolstoy
​

Does that mean you support the ally no matter what they do?

(COMMENT)

Of course not. BUT, it does mean that America must look at the issues from the perspective of the ally (Israel); and not be confused by trying to think like the Arab Palestinians or appreciate the enemy perspective.

The Tolstoy quote is informing on both sides.

(COMMENT)

The Israelis are of the western style of democracy. America has a rich history that has grown to recognize the necessity to protects minority rights [one Jewish State (pop ≈ 8M people) surrounded by four Arab League Members (pop ≈ 144M people)] by ensuring that there is equal participation in various democratic processes. The minority is represented in various branches of governance. Much of American support is in the form of international political weight, while the other major area requires America ensures Israel has a Qualitative Military Edge (QME) with a capacity strong enough to adequately defending themselves.

Much has been made of American munitions used by the Israelis. Yes, it is true that America is a doorway to that QME.

✪ America provides political support against the majority of nations that attempt to use the color of law against the minority that seek refuge in the Jewish National Home. America has learned (and is still learning) the folly of using pretense or appearance of right against the survivability of the minority.

✪ Most people do not realize that Israel only Ranks 88th (out of 155) nations in terms of its force size. That laces it right below Switzerland (IS 3.6M vs CH 3.615M). Egypt Ranks 14th (42M), Jordan Ranks 93d (3.3M), Syria Ranks 49th (11.6M) and Ranks 108th at (2.2M). That does not include the other 18 Arab Leagu Members or the theocratic Republic of Iran Ranked 13th (47M). The QME is critical in fending of the threats of not so friendly nations.​

Why should we not be an honest broker? When we are not, the results are seldom enduring. You can’t have true and lasting peace if it is one-sided.

(COMMENT)

It is one-sided (unquestionably), and America had nothing to do with the morality of that outcome.

In the eyes of the Arab Palestinians, America will never be an impartial mediator so long as it supports Israel. And in the light of that argument, and in the interest of transparency, America SHOULD recuse itself as having a conflict of interest (Ally to Israel) and lack of impartiality (Honesty support for Israel). This is no different (only with the opposite orientation) than the position held by a majority of the Arab League and the Russian Federation. And this is no different when America stood alone against the other 14 Members of the Security Council opposing Resolution S/RES/2334 (2016).

Most Respectfully,
R

and not be confused by trying to think like the Arab Palestinians or appreciate the enemy perspective.

Are Palestinians the enemy of America?

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ Coyote, et al,

That is a "No Win" question.

Do you believe Israel is always right?

(COMMENT)

NO!

v/r
R

I agree, but while I hear plenty of (often valid) criticism of the Palestinians, criticism of Israel is met with fierce denial and redirection.

The criticism on Israel is encountered according to the validity of the accusations.

Valid criticism is accepted.

Any and all criticism needs to be met with a grain of salt, depending on what the criticism is and who is making the allegations.

Valid criticism is accepted.

Good! That leaves BDS off the anti Semitism hook.

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ Coyote, et al,

Any country that has fought a series of conventional attacks, AND in the background, a continuous series of low-intensity asymmetric engagements, conflicts → that will have been involved in events that are uncompromisingly wrong and events that are indefensible. It has been over seventy years now that the conflict rages. And Israel is due their share of "Criticism." No country in history of can be on the defensive, for 70 years, against against both sparatic high intensity conventional Mechanized ground war, supremacy for the skies, protection from the sea-borne threat and still have to face the violent struggle among state and non-state actors for legitimacy and influence over the future political processes and the defense of a nation.

Unfortunately YES!

No country facing the continuous level and magnitude of Jihadist, Fedayeen Activist, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric Fighters can honestly say that every decision made over that duration of time (70 years) can state that every decision made was morally correct and justifiably enacted. Israel has implemented actions that have, from time to time, uncompromisingly wrong and indefensible.

I agree, but while I hear plenty of (often valid) criticism of the Palestinians, criticism of Israel is met with fierce denial and redirection.

(COMMENT)

But remember. The Arab Palestinians have been continuously hostile. Since the adoption of tactics that included the calculated use of unlawful violence or threat of unlawful violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or to intimidate governments or societies in the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological.

An overwhelming majority of the actions taken by the Arab Palestinians are violations of some law, but is overlooked by those passing judgment on Israel under the color of law. In fact, the Arab Palestinians do it so often that it becomes almost socially acceptable for that behavior.

Most Respectfully,
R

But remember. The Arab Palestinians have been continuously hostile.

i.e. defensive.

 

[Hollie]

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ Coyote, et al,

Any country that has fought a series of conventional attacks, AND in the background, a continuous series of low-intensity asymmetric engagements, conflicts → that will have been involved in events that are uncompromisingly wrong and events that are indefensible. It has been over seventy years now that the conflict rages. And Israel is due their share of "Criticism." No country in history of can be on the defensive, for 70 years, against against both sparatic high intensity conventional Mechanized ground war, supremacy for the skies, protection from the sea-borne threat and still have to face the violent struggle among state and non-state actors for legitimacy and influence over the future political processes and the defense of a nation.

Unfortunately YES!

No country facing the continuous level and magnitude of Jihadist, Fedayeen Activist, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric Fighters can honestly say that every decision made over that duration of time (70 years) can state that every decision made was morally correct and justifiably enacted. Israel has implemented actions that have, from time to time, uncompromisingly wrong and indefensible.

I agree, but while I hear plenty of (often valid) criticism of the Palestinians, criticism of Israel is met with fierce denial and redirection.

(COMMENT)

But remember. The Arab Palestinians have been continuously hostile. Since the adoption of tactics that included the calculated use of unlawful violence or threat of unlawful violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or to intimidate governments or societies in the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological.

An overwhelming majority of the actions taken by the Arab Palestinians are violations of some law, but is overlooked by those passing judgment on Israel under the color of law. In fact, the Arab Palestinians do it so often that it becomes almost socially acceptable for that behavior.

Most Respectfully,
R

But remember. The Arab Palestinians have been continuously hostile.

i.e. defensive.

Islamic terrorist suicide attacks are defensive?

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ Coyote, et al,

Any country that has fought a series of conventional attacks, AND in the background, a continuous series of low-intensity asymmetric engagements, conflicts → that will have been involved in events that are uncompromisingly wrong and events that are indefensible. It has been over seventy years now that the conflict rages. And Israel is due their share of "Criticism." No country in history of can be on the defensive, for 70 years, against against both sparatic high intensity conventional Mechanized ground war, supremacy for the skies, protection from the sea-borne threat and still have to face the violent struggle among state and non-state actors for legitimacy and influence over the future political processes and the defense of a nation.

Unfortunately YES!

No country facing the continuous level and magnitude of Jihadist, Fedayeen Activist, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric Fighters can honestly say that every decision made over that duration of time (70 years) can state that every decision made was morally correct and justifiably enacted. Israel has implemented actions that have, from time to time, uncompromisingly wrong and indefensible.

I agree, but while I hear plenty of (often valid) criticism of the Palestinians, criticism of Israel is met with fierce denial and redirection.

(COMMENT)

But remember. The Arab Palestinians have been continuously hostile. Since the adoption of tactics that included the calculated use of unlawful violence or threat of unlawful violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or to intimidate governments or societies in the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological.

An overwhelming majority of the actions taken by the Arab Palestinians are violations of some law, but is overlooked by those passing judgment on Israel under the color of law. In fact, the Arab Palestinians do it so often that it becomes almost socially acceptable for that behavior.

Most Respectfully,
R

But remember. The Arab Palestinians have been continuously hostile.

i.e. defensive.

Islamic terrorist suicide attacks are defensive?

Oh jeese, more of the old terrorist canard.