Religion in politics/schools

[Gudrid]

God in the Pledge is a different story, in that you have a captive audience forced to speak the words. Although I haven't kept up on that one, so I'm not sure if students can still be forced to say it if they don't want to. In any case, again, context matters. A plastic baby Jesus isn't going to jump out and force you to convert, especially not when it's simply a piece of a larger display of holiday consumerism. Some balance is always necessary.

Students can't be forced to say the pledge with or without "God" in it, but it still happens. Frankly, I think the whole saying the pledge in school thing is a bit freaky with or without mention of God. Blind, rote, unthinking pledges of nationalism and the use of repetition to drive home the point are just a bit too 1930's Germany for my taste.

But I do think the addition of "under God" into the pledge was the wrong move and does make it a mix of church of state. It also cheapens the sentiment. There's very few kids who are saying that pledge when told to in school and really thinking about it while they say it. To me, it's a form of using God's name in vain.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Oh and remind me how many of the Ten Comandments directly translate into laws.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

You were called out for writing like an immature and ignorant person with a lot of caffeine in your system... when countered with the logical explanations, you simply continued your capitalized, baseless rants...

As stated.. if the shoe fits, you can wear it

Yup, I've always found that is the best technique to "win friends and influence people", works every time.

I don't need to win any friends.. and as stated, when facts are displayed to a fanatical ranter, it generally does not sway their opinion anyway....

Tell me Dave which FACTS are you refering to?

 

[Dis]

Well I had jury duty and was told we would be sworn in. I asked the lady if I would be able to not say so help you God. She said I would be allowed to but during the swearing in I was NOT given the option of affirming rather then swearing to God. Not a huge big deal but it was anoying. Heck I even join in prayer at my in-laws out of respect for their home I just don't see why people seam to NEED their religion in public places.

What the fuck. Seriously?? If you're going to tell the truth, you're going to tell the truth, regardless of whether or not you preface it with "so help me God". If you're going to lie, you're going to lie. Simple as that.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Well I certainly had no intention of lying and I would have been a fair juror but was not chosen from the jury pool.

 

[goldcatt]

Well I had jury duty and was told we would be sworn in. I asked the lady if I would be able to not say so help you God. She said I would be allowed to but during the swearing in I was NOT given the option of affirming rather then swearing to God. Not a huge big deal but it was anoying. Heck I even join in prayer at my in-laws out of respect for their home I just don't see why people seam to NEED their religion in public places.

You should have politely but firmly insisted on an affirmation instead, it is your right. But being completely and 100% free of religious symbols of any kind in publicly owned spaces is not. The two religion clauses of the First are in constant conflict, which IMO is actually a good thing because it keeps us examining the issues, but it also means a certain amount of balance and common sense has to be used. In other words, like so many issues it all comes back to "context matters".

 

[DiamondDave]

Yup, I've always found that is the best technique to "win friends and influence people", works every time.

I don't need to win any friends.. and as stated, when facts are displayed to a fanatical ranter, it generally does not sway their opinion anyway....

Tell me Dave which FACTS are you refering to?

The difference between the separation of church and state (government imposed religion), and your stance that any reference to to anything with religious history or connotation be banned from public display... the fact that the separation of church and state in no way backs up your stance whatsoever and that it's true meaning is lost on you

Try educating yourself on what the concept truly is and what it was created for

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Like I said I was annoyed by it but I wasn't going to call the ACLU and make a federal case about it. To tell you the truth despite the OP I don't really get all that fired up about it but the Ten Comandments issue here was VERY heated and so many "Christians" spent a shit load of money fighting to keep it in the park......Money that could have been better spent HELPING the less fortunate instead of ENRICHING an attorney.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

So Dave you honestly don't think that allowing religious monuments which are almost exclusively Christian in nature does not imply that the gov't is supporting Christianity over ALL OTHER faiths?

 

[Cold Fusion38]

In the end a church across from the state house put it on their property where it belongs.

 

[DiamondDave]

Oh and remind me how many of the Ten Comandments directly translate into laws.

The 10 commandments, as well as the code of Hammurabi and other things have historic reference and precedent in the creation of laws that are still reflected in our society today... these are two of the earliest written accounts of laws over a society or people.. and with the history of Christianity in our society and formation of this country, it is no wonder that there are displays paying homage to the 10 commandments... but just as I am not offended by the references to the 10 commandments, I also would not be offended by a courthouse displaying a sculpture referencing the code.. even though I do not submit myself to the religious standards of ancient Babylon... and just because you have 1, does not mean that you must then display something in reference to every last historical set of laws, out of some fear of offending some individual

You do not have any write to be protected from being personally offended by some display... you have the right not to have the government force you to worship some state mandated religion

 

[Dis]

Like I said I was annoyed by it but I wasn't going to call the ACLU and make a federal case about it. To tell you the truth despite the OP I don't really get all that fired up about it but the Ten Comandments issue here was VERY heated and so many "Christians" spent a shit load of money fighting to keep it in the park......Money that could have been better spent HELPING the less fortunate instead of ENRICHING an attorney.

Why are you putting Christians in quotes? Sounds mocking.

Oh, and y'all spent just as much money fighting to keep it OUT of the park. Why? Because you don't think it belongs there? What about the happiness it gives people seeing it there?

Now that you're getting called on the bullshit, you say you don't get all fired up about it? Nice backpedal.

 

[DiamondDave]

So Dave you honestly don't think that allowing religious monuments which are almost exclusively Christian in nature does not imply that the gov't is supporting Christianity over ALL OTHER faiths?

No.. it does not imply that the government if forcing you to worship in the religion of Christianity... which is what the separation of church and state is all about

but nice try

 

[DiamondDave]

Like I said I was annoyed by it but I wasn't going to call the ACLU and make a federal case about it. To tell you the truth despite the OP I don't really get all that fired up about it but the Ten Comandments issue here was VERY heated and so many "Christians" spent a shit load of money fighting to keep it in the park......Money that could have been better spent HELPING the less fortunate instead of ENRICHING an attorney.

If a group of people volunteered their own fund support of this cause... so be it... whether they choose to donate to that, or to cancer research, or to saving the whales is of no consequence to you... what they donate to is their business and not for you to dictate what should be donated to

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Well Dis thats my point.......Why would a TRUE CHRISTIAN spend money to fight a legal battel while there are HOMELESS and STARVING people in society. So yes I consider them "Christians"

 

[Ringel05]

Well I had jury duty and was told we would be sworn in. I asked the lady if I would be able to not say so help you God. She said I would be allowed to but during the swearing in I was NOT given the option of affirming rather then swearing to God. Not a huge big deal but it was anoying. Heck I even join in prayer at my in-laws out of respect for their home I just don't see why people seam to NEED their religion in public places.

As long as you recognize there is a Christian heritage and tradition in this country and that Christians have just as many rights as everyone else then what's the problem? Once again, if you're annoyed, irritated or offended the best (and only) place to find the solution is via the mirror image.

 

[goldcatt]

Like I said I was annoyed by it but I wasn't going to call the ACLU and make a federal case about it. To tell you the truth despite the OP I don't really get all that fired up about it but the Ten Comandments issue here was VERY heated and so many "Christians" spent a shit load of money fighting to keep it in the park......Money that could have been better spent HELPING the less fortunate instead of ENRICHING an attorney.

Their priorities may bother you, but it was their money. They had the right to fight for what they wanted the same as you do. Apparently they lost, and now as you noted the display is where it belongs. So what's the big deal?

 

[Gudrid]

[
No.. it does not imply that the government if forcing you to worship in the religion of Christianity... which is what the separation of church and state is all about

but nice try

That's not what it's about. it's about separating church and state. I mean, it's what the language means. You don't do that by posting a single religion's value system on government property or by having religious decorations of one faith in the public square.

Sorry, but if you have only one religion represented in such displays, it's an establishment of that religion. So said the supreme court, and that's one I agree with them on.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Like I said I was annoyed by it but I wasn't going to call the ACLU and make a federal case about it. To tell you the truth despite the OP I don't really get all that fired up about it but the Ten Comandments issue here was VERY heated and so many "Christians" spent a shit load of money fighting to keep it in the park......Money that could have been better spent HELPING the less fortunate instead of ENRICHING an attorney.

Why are you putting Christians in quotes? Sounds mocking.

Oh, and y'all spent just as much money fighting to keep it OUT of the park. Why? Because you don't think it belongs there? What about the happiness it gives people seeing it there?

Now that you're getting called on the bullshit, you say you don't get all fired up about it? Nice backpedal.

Well actually the STATE had to pay the legal bills to keep it out because the STATE was sued for removing it.

 

[Dis]

Well Dis thats my point.......Why would a TRUE CHRISTIAN spend money to fight a legal battel while there are HOMELESS and STARVING people in society. So yes I consider them "Christians"

So you think Christians should be responsible for every homeless or starving person in the world? When did you become God, and get to decide how and what money should be spent on, and what should be displayed where? How do I sign up for that job? I'm DAMN good at telling people what to do, and I rock at spending money.