Redemption

[JakeStarkey]

Oh my gosh........me too. That is why I laugh at all the "real (talk radio) conservatives" who equate being a Democrat with killing babies, having gay sex and hating God. My dad was a WWII Marine vet, Southern Baptist Deacon and lifelong Democrat and they didn't build them any finer than him.

Yep. However many churches are running left wingers off with their preaching politics from the pulpit. LIberals are equated with satan in many sermons.
That is just all so wrong in a supposed Christain? church.[/QUOTE
Which churches? The only churches I've seen preaching politics are like Rev Wright's. Not sure I'd call that rightwing. In any case, this isn't about politics.

It's about ethics. Mine happen to be religious, but I'm not shoving them down anyone's throat, and I have stated several times one's ethics do not have to be based on a religion to participate.

We CAN do this without it turning into a right vs left thing.

Gunny, right winger evangelicalism has become a major factor in the Republican Party since Jerry Falwell, the Moral Majority, etc., since 1980. Social values conservatives are a dominant portion of the GOP, and most of that conservatism is grounded in right wing churches.

Having said that, I suggest we continue along with your prescription "this isn't about politics".

 

[goldcatt]

In that case, I think 'redemption' is the wrong word. I think you're talking about forgiveness. Two different things.

Forgiving oneself for acting in opposition to one's belief is difficult. Someone I know felt inclined to make amends for what he felt he had done wrong and did this. He has, I think, found a way to live with his past. I think it must take a lot of courage to do.

Actually, I guess I am talking both.

In that case, mo chara, ask God to redeem you for your sins and learn to forgive yourself - because He already has. He knows what is in your heart.

It's not that simple, CG. Looking at it from a Christian point of view, to understand grace one has to fully accept not only the need to be saved but the complete and unconditional love of God that makes it possible, even as imperfect as we are. A lot of Christians love God, but it can be far, far easier to give than to fully accept and feel worthy of that love in return.

That same concept can be applied to other people, or to ourselves. Understanding and accepting others can be far, far easier than really accepting who we are and being okay with it. Love, in the universal sense, really is easier for a lot of people to give than to receive.

 

[Gunny]

the ego of mankind..that we, as a race, matter enough in the span of time, to be redeemed...i dont buy into it...your only hope is here and now....living a good life...and trying to do the best thing you can....but we are nothing....we consider ourselves superior and the top of the food chain...we flatter ourselves ...with deep philosphical thought and reason...but in reality we are no different from the other species on earth....perhaps even worse off for it.

My question had nothing to do with Man's unbound arrogance, nor did I state redemption had to come from anyone or thing other than one's self.

 

[Gunny]

Well, what I get from this thread is Gunny is asking if someone redeems himself, (or herself) but can't forgive himself, then what?


Maybe someone could put an example of that out there.

Spot on. What if ...

You have to take another person's life and you totally don't believe in that. You know you have to, it's for the greater good ... nonetheless you hold yourself accountable for it.

You and botoxilox have hit the nail a couple of times. What if you cannot forgive yourself, regardless what is promised by your religion?

If you're a religious man, and believe that God forgives you, I would have to ask you who you think you are to hold a grudge against yourself that God does not. You are not letting your troubles rest with the Lord, but holding on to them and hurting yourself with them.

From a secular point of view, we only have one life to do good while we're here. Sometimes we do not so good. Sometimes we do bad. Its a process. If we didn't get to know bad up close and personal, how would we fully appreciate good? If we can't let go of the bad we have seen, and sometimes found ourselves participating in, how will we break free of it and do the most good we can in the time we have left? In that case, failure to accept grace in whatever form we find it and move past troubled times wastes energy that would be better spent being a positive force in the world.

Meanwhile, on a purely practical note, if one takes a life, but in doing so saves many more, and aside from that also saves many others (unrelated to life taken) at personal risk to ones own, wouldn't it be a cruel and heartless judge that would condemn? Would you be so harsh on others as you are on yourself?

The Soldiers Final Inspection

The soldier stood and faced his God,
Which must always come to pass;
He hoped his shoes were shining bright,
Just as brightly as his brass.

"Step forward now, soldier,
How shall I deal with you?
Have you turned the other cheek?
To my church have you been true?"

The soldier squared his shoulders and said,
"No, Lord, I guess I ain't;
Because those of us who carry guns,
Can't always be a saint.

I've had to work most Sundays,
And at times my talk was rough;
I've had to break your rules my Lord,
Because the world is awfully tough.

But, I never took a thing
That wasn't mine to keep;
Though I worked a lot of overtime,
When the bills got just too steep.

And I never passed a cry for help,
Though at times I shook with fear;
And sometimes ... God forgive me,
I've wept unmanly tears.

I know I don't deserve a place
Among the people here;
They never wanted me around,
Except to calm their fears.

If you've a place for me here, Lord,
It needn't be so grand;
I never expected or had too much,
But if you don't, I'll understand."

There was a silence all around the throne,
Where the saints often trod;
As the soldier waited quietly,
For the judgment of his God.

"Step forward now, soldier,
You've borne your burdens well;
Come walk peacefully on Heaven's streets,
You've done your time in HELL!"

Soldiers Final Inspection...a veteran stands before God...poem for our troops past and present

The music sucks...and good GAWD I know Marines don't cry...

Wanna bet on that? I've known plenty that have. Myself included. Just depends on what you've had to look at.

 

[California Girl]

So is killing another person, be it in war or self defense, something a human can redeem himself for. Is that where we are?


I think most people on here have said yes, you can redeem yourself for those actions. Be it forgiving yourself, or asking God for forgiveness, or both.

God can forgive even Charles Manson - if Charles Manson truly repents of his sins. That is a scary thought! God is a lot nicer than I am!!

But then you have to ask yourself why "God" allowed those brutal murders by Manson and his cult.

Actually, I don't have to ask myself that. I already know.... Man has free will. God didn't 'allow' those brutal murders any more than he 'allows' a natural disaster or any other tragedy.

 

[Gunny]

Yep. However many churches are running left wingers off with their preaching politics from the pulpit. LIberals are equated with satan in many sermons.
That is just all so wrong in a supposed Christain? church.[/QUOTE
Which churches? The only churches I've seen preaching politics are like Rev Wright's. Not sure I'd call that rightwing. In any case, this isn't about politics.

It's about ethics. Mine happen to be religious, but I'm not shoving them down anyone's throat, and I have stated several times one's ethics do not have to be based on a religion to participate.

We CAN do this without it turning into a right vs left thing.

Gunny, right winger evangelicalism has become a major factor in the Republican Party since Jerry Falwell, the Moral Majority, etc., since 1980. Social values conservatives are a dominant portion of the GOP, and most of that conservatism is grounded in right wing churches.

Having said that, I suggest we continue along with your prescription "this isn't about politics".

After you get your shot in, right?

 

[California Girl]

Actually, I guess I am talking both.

In that case, mo chara, ask God to redeem you for your sins and learn to forgive yourself - because He already has. He knows what is in your heart.

It's not that simple, CG. Looking at it from a Christian point of view, to understand grace one has to fully accept not only the need to be saved but the complete and unconditional love of God that makes it possible, even as imperfect as we are. A lot of Christians love God, but it can be far, far easier to give than to fully accept and feel worthy of that love in return.

That same concept can be applied to other people, or to ourselves. Understanding and accepting others can be far, far easier than really accepting who we are and being okay with it. Love, in the universal sense, really is easier for a lot of people to give than to receive.

I just tend not to over complicate things. God redeems, but it is hard for some of us to forgive themselves. Because God knows our heart, He has already forgiven those who genuinely want to be forgiven. Not hard. Doesn't need to be overly complicated.

 

[Care4all]

I guess that all depends on how you define "thou shalt not kill"...

Do you define it as "thou shalt not kill under any circumstances ever"?

Or do you define it as "thou shalt not murder"?

I would have to assume that "thou shalt not kill" would NOT apply to killing a wild animal that is attacking you, like a bear.

Therefore, "thou shalt not kill" should also NOT apply if said wild animal was a human.

A good question. I'd say both schools of thought exist. My belief has always been that "thou shalt not kill" applied to murder.

However, was not Moses denied entry to the Promised Land by God for having killed an Egyptian guard?

I thought it was because he refused to give honor to God at the waters of Meribah?

Numbers 27:12-14

12 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go up this mountain in the Abarim range and see the land I have given the Israelites. 13 After you have seen it, you too will be gathered to your people, as your brother Aaron was, 14 for when the community rebelled at the waters in the Desert of Zin, both of you disobeyed my command to honor me as holy before their eyes." (These were the waters of Meribah Kadesh, in the Desert of Zin.)

Immie

But if it were JUST what was in your Numbers passage above Immie, WHY did he allow the OTHERS who also sinned with moses, to make it to the promise land?

Care

 

[goldcatt]

In that case, mo chara, ask God to redeem you for your sins and learn to forgive yourself - because He already has. He knows what is in your heart.

It's not that simple, CG. Looking at it from a Christian point of view, to understand grace one has to fully accept not only the need to be saved but the complete and unconditional love of God that makes it possible, even as imperfect as we are. A lot of Christians love God, but it can be far, far easier to give than to fully accept and feel worthy of that love in return.

That same concept can be applied to other people, or to ourselves. Understanding and accepting others can be far, far easier than really accepting who we are and being okay with it. Love, in the universal sense, really is easier for a lot of people to give than to receive.

I just tend not to over complicate things. God redeems, but it is hard for some of us to forgive themselves. Because God knows our heart, He has already forgiven those who genuinely want to be forgiven. Not hard. Doesn't need to be overly complicated.

I guess that was my original point. If I'm understanding Gunny, it's not really or at least entirely about whether God forgives. It's about redeeming himself in his own eyes and being able to accept and move on in this life. Those are two very different things.

 

[Care4all]

Very true.

Just like an alcoholic needs to stop drinking on their own, or a smoker quits on their own, does one redeem themselves for past transgressions.

NOBODY can make you quit drinking, smoking, just like nobody can make you redeem yourself. It's free will, do you want to change? Do you want forgiveness? And once you've done that, do you feel better about yourself?

I think I see your point, Echo.

An individual can ask for forgiveness, and someone can forgive them.

An individual does not ask to be redeemed. Only they can redeem themselves.

The external party cannot redeem another individual...they can only pass judgement on that individual.

Almost some points. I accept that and kudos to EZ.

However, what if one cannot forgive one's self? Is there STILL redemption?

The week before I married Matthew, and before I was excommunicated from the Catholic church for doing such, because I was married and divorced when I was very young...

I went to Confession. It was my first REAL confession....I had gone to confession a kazillion times already, but THIS ONE was a true self evaluation and a confession that reached so DEEPLY in to my soul, for ALL the SINS that I had committed...and some pretty awful sins at that....NONE that I will share with any of you, but major sins, none the less....things that I had held back on in other confessions over the years...things that stayed with me....many of which I had not even recognized as sins, UNTIL that very moment....

I sat in the pews of the Church, waiting to get in line...the confession line...tearing my eyes out thinking about where and when I went WRONG....really deep deep thought and as said, soul searching....I could not stop crying....

Granted, it was an emotional week...my wedding week so I was going bonkers as it was, with the stress of it all....

And I did NOT want to go in that confessional, but my soul told me that I needed to...so I waited UNTIL every parishioner had completed their confessions BEFORE I took my turn...

It had been 10 years since I had given a true, honest confession....sure I followed the motions of a confession, but there was so much hidden inside, that I never let out.

I began the Confession behind the screen where the Priest was hidden and said the confessional prayer required, and said:

"Bless me father for I have sinned, and it has been 10 years since my last confession...."

When I got to the 10 years since my last confession....I just began sobbing, and could not finish the Act of Contrition....and this Priest said to me through the screen...."Dear, would you like to do your Confession face to face?"

And my head said, NO, NO, NO.....I do NOT want to do this face to face with YOU!

BUT my body got up and went in to an area where he put a chair in front of him and sat me down and held my hand...

It turned out, that HE was NOT the priest of this parish but was the Monseigneur of the entire city of Tampa, over all priests in Tampa....visiting the parish and giving confessions that day....!!!

Anyway, through my sobbing I managed to confess every single thing that was ailing me...I left NOTHING out...and I just could NOT stop crying, and the Monseigneur sat there and held my hand through it all....

He then said to me, " young Lady, God HAS forgiven you...BUT YOU NEED TO FORGIVE YOURSELF".....I said to him, that this was very hard to do....and He said to me, "I was slapping God in the face...by not forgiving myself."

He told me that I was mocking God and the forgiveness of His Son, if I did not believe or think that my sins could be forgiven and ARE FORGIVEN and that this Grace given unto me was final...I should not hold on to these sins and my sorrow as though God had not already forgiven me... and to hold on to them as though God could not forgive me, was a sin, in and of itself...of the lack of true Faith.....

He sat with me talking until I finally stopped crying and accepted God's forgiveness...full forgiveness.

I am not certain if this will help you Gunny....but it is my experience that sort of relates....

Care

 

[JakeStarkey]

Gunny, right winger evangelicalism has become a major factor in the Republican Party since Jerry Falwell, the Moral Majority, etc., since 1980. Social values conservatives are a dominant portion of the GOP, and most of that conservatism is grounded in right wing churches.

Having said that, I suggest we continue along with your prescription "this isn't about politics".

After you get your shot in, right?

Just a simple correction to the record.

 

[Yukon]

explain ....

oh, and flamers fuck off. I'll delete your posts. Fair warning.

As a former Roman Catholic Priest I still have the authority to forgive your sins.

Your redemption for using foul language is to repeat 10 Hail Mary's and 10 Our Father's.

Fr. Yukon

 

[uscitizen]

Oh my gosh........me too. That is why I laugh at all the "real (talk radio) conservatives" who equate being a Democrat with killing babies, having gay sex and hating God. My dad was a WWII Marine vet, Southern Baptist Deacon and lifelong Democrat and they didn't build them any finer than him.

Yep. However many churches are running left wingers off with their preaching politics from the pulpit. LIberals are equated with satan in many sermons.
That is just all so wrong in a supposed Christain? church.

Which churches? The only churches I've seen preaching politics are like Rev Wright's. Not sure I'd call that rightwing. In any case, this isn't about politics.

It's about ethics. Mine happen to be religious, but I'm not shoving them down anyone's throat, and I have stated several times one's ethics do not have to be based on a religion to participate.

We CAN do this without it turning into a right vs left thing.

Yes we can have ethics without religion.

However preaching politics in evangelical churches is common.

 

[goldcatt]

You people have enough hack threads to kick each other around in. Some things are too important to politicize.

 

[uscitizen]

You people have enough hack threads to kick each other around in. Some things are too important to politicize.

Agreed. Although I do not believe. I do think that concern about ones soul is far more important than politics which will suck your soul right out.

 

[California Girl]

It's not that simple, CG. Looking at it from a Christian point of view, to understand grace one has to fully accept not only the need to be saved but the complete and unconditional love of God that makes it possible, even as imperfect as we are. A lot of Christians love God, but it can be far, far easier to give than to fully accept and feel worthy of that love in return.

That same concept can be applied to other people, or to ourselves. Understanding and accepting others can be far, far easier than really accepting who we are and being okay with it. Love, in the universal sense, really is easier for a lot of people to give than to receive.

I just tend not to over complicate things. God redeems, but it is hard for some of us to forgive themselves. Because God knows our heart, He has already forgiven those who genuinely want to be forgiven. Not hard. Doesn't need to be overly complicated.

I guess that was my original point. If I'm understanding Gunny, it's not really or at least entirely about whether God forgives. It's about redeeming himself in his own eyes and being able to accept and move on in this life. Those are two very different things.

Exactly! The hardest thing is not being redeemed, it is accepting that redemption. In order to do so, we must be able to forgive ourself for whatever that past transgression was. As I said earlier, someone I know well found it once he decided he needed to 'do' something. He chose to get involved in charity work - he called it his 'debt'. I understand that. It makes him feel more worthy. I think feeling worthy of redemption is an important aspect.

 

[uscitizen]

Hmm so if everyone took religious redemption seriously we would have no need for welfare because there would be no poor or suffering?

I would think actions speak louder than words where religious redemption is concerned.

 

[goldcatt]

I just tend not to over complicate things. God redeems, but it is hard for some of us to forgive themselves. Because God knows our heart, He has already forgiven those who genuinely want to be forgiven. Not hard. Doesn't need to be overly complicated.

I guess that was my original point. If I'm understanding Gunny, it's not really or at least entirely about whether God forgives. It's about redeeming himself in his own eyes and being able to accept and move on in this life. Those are two very different things.

Exactly! The hardest thing is not being redeemed, it is accepting that redemption. In order to do so, we must be able to forgive ourself for whatever that past transgression was. As I said earlier, someone I know well found it once he decided he needed to 'do' something. He chose to get involved in charity work - he called it his 'debt'. I understand that. It makes him feel more worthy. I think feeling worthy of redemption is an important aspect.

That's the problem, isn't it? How to feel worthy of acceptance, or of redemption.

Personally I think outward acts can help, but they're not enough. They're more like a band-aid, they protect a sore spot until it can start to heal but they don't really do much to help the process. It takes a special kind of courage to look in the mirror and really see what's looking back, let alone accept it. No acts of atonement will give you that particular kind of courage.

But life is messy and complicated. The people who live it are also messy and complicated. I guess everyone has to find their own answers. Whatever works for you!

 

[PixieStix]

Good thread Gunny.

A few simple words comes to mind.

Acceptance, of the things they cannot change

Grace, take it and run with it. The chains fall away

forgiveness..one must forgive ones own self before they are able to forgive others

Most people think love and hate is an emotion, while it does become emotional and deep, it starts from making a choice to either love or hate.

It is weird that you made this thread. My brothers have recently made some choices to hate on my Mother, therefore I have chosen to allow myself to accept to give them over to their own devises and ask for Grace that I do not say something I will regret to them and forgive them. Even though, I cannot wrap my head around their actions. They are not going to be in my life until they decide to come to their senses. I pray that they choose redemption. Just a personal example, don't know if that helps. But I am struggling with that a bit.

Grace is my favorite word.

May Peace and Grace follow you always

 

[PixieStix]

Very true.

Just like an alcoholic needs to stop drinking on their own, or a smoker quits on their own, does one redeem themselves for past transgressions.

NOBODY can make you quit drinking, smoking, just like nobody can make you redeem yourself. It's free will, do you want to change? Do you want forgiveness? And once you've done that, do you feel better about yourself?

I think I see your point, Echo.

An individual can ask for forgiveness, and someone can forgive them.

An individual does not ask to be redeemed. Only they can redeem themselves.

The external party cannot redeem another individual...they can only pass judgement on that individual.

Almost some points. I accept that and kudos to EZ.

However, what if one cannot forgive one's self? Is there STILL redemption?

It took me years to understand and accept, that I had to forgive myself. I am and have always been my harshest critic. I have very high standards of myself. A characteristic of my personality, That I had to learn to turn into a positive on a daily basis, because my standards I had set for myself was not only unrealistic, but impossible to achieve. I can only do with Grace. I have to turn off the black noise of the world to achieve this