Christ and government

Discussion in 'Religion and Ethics' started by Avatar4321, Dec 29, 2009.

  1. Avatar4321
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    Avatar4321 Diamond Member Gold Supporting Member

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    I've been thinking a bit (A dangerous past time, I know). I think there are alot of Christians who are focused on the wrong things. Im not saying all, or even most. But there is a substantial group that seems to think the way to change things is by changing the laws.

    Example, the abortion laws. Id love to see the day when abortion was outlawed. but is that going to solve the abortion problem? Sadly, no. The only way to solve the abortion problem is to convince people to stop having abortions whether its illegal or not. We need to work harder to win the hearts and minds of the people who are chosing to engage in activities. Changing the laws wont help if the people are going to disregard the law.

    We cannot save our nation, our people, through the law. It's just not possible. And if we accomplish what our real goals should be, then we wont need to pass a law because everyone will flee abortion without it. (Please keep in mind, I am not trying to have a discussion on abortion. Abortion is merely the example I am using to illustrate the underlying principle. So let's focus on that).

    One of the quotes on my signature is one I think is very important:

    “The Lord works from the inside out. The world works from the outside in. The world would take people out of the slums. Christ takes the slums out of people, and then they take themselves out of the slums. The world would mold men by changing their environment. Christ changes men, who then change their environment. The world would shape human behavior, but Christ can change human nature."

    And it makes me ask, are we doing Christs work by helping Him change men? or are we trying to do things the way of the world and trying to change the environment so that men will change.

    I believe there is power in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I believe that Christ has invited us to come to know Him for a reason. And that reason includes working on His behalf in this world. Not for our salvation, but to make life better for our fellow man and our posterity. To build His kingdom on the earth. And I think we live far below the power we are capable of for several reasons:

    1) Pride blinds us to what is possible and what needs to be done because we falsely assume we are doing what we can already or that its someone elses job.
    2) Fear keeps us from doing what we know is right.
    3) Jealousy/envy keep us from doing what we are supposed to because we covet what others have instead of accepting that God might have a better plan for us than what we do.
    4) Ignorance keeps us from doing things because we have good intentions but dont know what to do because we ask not and dont listen when God speaks.

    There are others. but I think those are some off the top of my head. The point is I dont think alot of people are coming to Christ because we are focused on the wrong objective. Instead of bringing people to Christ so that men may learn the principles of self government and how do do good in this world. We are trying to force people to see and experience good in order to hopefully bring them to Christ. (At least i hope thats the reasoning, it could simply be to obtain power at the expense of others).

    Its like people have no faith in God. (And believe me, I am including myself in this). We say we will believe God up to a certain point and we will go no further and wonder why God hasnt poured out countless blessings He has prepared for us upon us or given us power to convince others of His Atonement.

    The question is, will people rise up and do the work that we need to get done? or will we simply try to take the easy way out.
     
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  2. Smartt33
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    Smartt33 Senior Member

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    “The Lord works from the inside out. The world works from the outside in. The world would take people out of the slums. Christ takes the slums out of people, and then they take themselves out of the slums. The world would mold men by changing their environment. Christ changes men, who then change their environment. The world would shape human behavior, but Christ can change human nature."

    Avatar: And it makes me ask, are we doing Christs work by helping Him change men? or are we trying to do things the way of the world and trying to change the environment so that men will change.


    Smartt33: I love that quote. I think it is found in "Seven Habits of Highly Successful people."

    I totally agree with it, and the writer is a Mormon.

    However, your statement, " are we doing Christ’s work by helping Him change men? or are we trying to do things the way of the world and trying to change the environment so that men will change.
    " causes me a little confusion.

    Here is what I mean: If what the quote says, " The world would mold men by changing their environment. Christ changes men, who then change their environment." is true, then it stands to reason that at some point men would indeed change the environment. I mean, would not changed men do the work of changing the environment? Does it not often cause friction among men when men try to change the environment? So, where are we in this circle?

    I would say that I have been changed by Christ, because men of God led me and the Holy Spirit changed me. Now, would it not be natural for me to want my environment, and that of my family and friends, and future generations, to be made clean and fresh? How do we do that? Do we sit back and allow the non-believers to make all the laws, change the environment, and create a world like the one that existed as Moses came down from the mountain? That place filled with evil and immorality?

    What is my task? Do I at least vote against abortion, and gay marriage? Or do Ijust let them become normal in the world? Of cou7rse I am to be touching the lives of individuals, and I do, on these issues. However, can we touch enough lives and create enough change to make that kind of difference if as we work the laws begin to favor immorality? When do I actually start to create change?

    Maybe we really are supposed to just be believers spreading the Word. However, I promise that unless we are addressing the laws, we will be having to serve God illegally. In some cases we already do.

    I can do that. I don't mind. Paul did, and others. God still blessed. He even blessed jailers and prisoners through that.

    In any case, I hope you understand what I am asking.

    LOL
     
  3. Modbert
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    Modbert Daydream Believer Supporting Member

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    I do hope you would not be glad to see the day that Abortion is outlawed in all cases. And besides things like rape, incest, etc, the other argument here. Who's going to take care of all these suddenly not aborted children? The parents who can't afford them? Well no, that means more people on welfare. But wait! The same people who want Abortion outlawed generally (Republicans) also want to get rid of social programs like Welfare. So suddenly, you have hundred of thousands to millions (eventually) single mothers or families that can not afford a child. (A child costs a large amount of money from birth to 18). Hell, just the hospital bill alone would put most families in debt.

    I'm not Pro-Abortion, not at all. I'm Pro-Choice, because I don't think a child wants to grow up in a orphanage or starving elsewhere on the streets. I also don't think a child wants to be considered a burden. Abortion is one of those things that are personal responsibility, one of the things that Conservatives often talk about. I'd say 99% of women aren't happy to get one, it's not like they go there gleefully wanting to get one.

    However, addressing your argument now (sorry about the earlier stuff if it goes off-topic but I felt it had to be said) as long as people believe strongly on a subject such as this there will be people who will attempt to use the law to force their will upon others.

    It's not right by any means, and you are correct when you say it will not change things for the better. It will just force women once again back to the alleys.

    And for the record everyone, Abortion rates have gone down in the past twenty years or so if I remember reading correctly.
     
  4. eots
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    eots no fly list

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    no child born in America available for adoption at birth is going to end up in an orphanage
     
  5. Foxfyre
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    Foxfyre Eternal optimist Gold Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    From the perspective of the ancients, the God of the Bible set parameters for what the people should and should not do, and spelled out consequences for doing what they should and should not do. All civilizations have adopted standards, laws, protocol, expectations for the members of their various societies. That is what social contract is. When we pretty much abide by the social contract, we can rightfully expect certain benefits. When we choose to conduct ourselves outside the social contract we can expect natural or mandated consequences for that and such consequences could include fines, loss of privileges, and/or banishment from society (jail, prison, and/or exile.)

    Our social contract specifies that one person cannot intentionally or negligently harm or kill another person without consequence. Pro life people look at the unborn as a human life and their sense of morality extends the social contract to the unborn. Pro choice people choose to designate the unborn as something other than human life so that abortion for any selfish reason can be justified and legalized. I work closely with a couple of orphanages and can assure you that the children there are happy, well-adjusted, and well cared for people. And they have the gift of life and all the promise that their fertile young minds can imagine. How tragic it would have been had any of these incredible young souls been snuffed out for somebody else's convenience. Many, perhaps most of their parents were not exemplary people. But at least they gave them life.

    I think therefore we cannot despise our laws and only a people of laws who respect those laws can be truly free. It is our social contract that we need to look to and conform our laws to maximize the protection of unalienable rights and freedom to pursue whatever our hearts desire so long as we do not tread on the rights and freedom of others.
     
  6. 2Parties
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    2Parties Senior Member

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    You get it. On so many levels. Period.

    I'm glad I'm not the only person who views the world this way (though I know we are an extremely tiny minority), and this belief has formed my opinions on numerous things. The things you right as challenges are things I struggle with all the time.
     
  7. Avatar4321
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    Avatar4321 Diamond Member Gold Supporting Member

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    Unfortunately, understanding it, doing it, and becoming it are three seperate things and I am still stuck at the understanding it stage:)
     
  8. Smartt33
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    Smartt33 Senior Member

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    Maybe it would be good to see abortion as one of the symptoms of a greaster problem. Why are there so many babies to be aborted? Honestly answering this requires admitting that there is a moral issue here. Maybe killing the baby makers would be better. Then there would not be so many babies out there to be taken care of. I don't agree with this solution, but it is as reasonable as abortions.

    In other words, the main issue is not abortion. It is the behavior or irresponsible people. In most cases it is immoral behavior of irresponsible people.
     
  9. foggedinn
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    foggedinn VIP Member

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    The Law is a divine gift. It is the Word of God.

    The will of the majority, enacted into statute, and signed by the chief executive, is merely the politic. As is evident in most threads on this board, politics divides the house.

    Calling the product of our own will law is an act of idolatry; verbally equating God's Word and our own will. When the legislature enacts a new statute; rather than saying "It's the Law", we should be saying "It's the politic". It would be less offensive and a lot more accurate.
     
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  10. ☭proletarian☭
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    Always?

    So you'd let a woman die from an ectopic pregnancy just because?

    Besides, God has no problem with abortions. In fact, he prescribes them in Numbers 5:12-3
     

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