Redemption

[MaggieMae]

So is killing another person, be it in war or self defense, something a human can redeem himself for. Is that where we are?


I think most people on here have said yes, you can redeem yourself for those actions. Be it forgiving yourself, or asking God for forgiveness, or both.

God can forgive even Charles Manson - if Charles Manson truly repents of his sins. That is a scary thought! God is a lot nicer than I am!!

But then you have to ask yourself why "God" allowed those brutal murders by Manson and his cult.

 

[Immanuel]

Great thread, gunny. I am very curious what the wing nut righties believe redemption to be.

I am curious to see what everyone believes it to be. BTW .. I was raised a Southern Baptist in a staunchly Democratic family and most of the congregation was the same. What you need to work on is reconciliation. Your belief that Christianity is exclusively rightwing versus reality.

Southern Baptist and a Democratic Family? I hate to tell you this, but there is no chance of you being redeemed. j/k

Redemption? In the religious sense, I cannot redeem myself. My only hope is that by the Grace of God, I am redeemed because of the death of Christ upon the cross. I am saved (aka redeemed) by Grace not by works (Eph 2:8-9) although hopefully my works are a fruit of God's Grace (James 2:18).

Gunny,

I answered this after reading the first page or so. It wasn't until later that I realized there was a reason behind your question. Please forgive me if I sounded flippant. That was not the intention.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

So what you are saying is:

Redemption is the changing of actual behavior/thought. Or, not doing it again if you feel it's wrong.

Forgiveness applies to past behavior/thought that one feels is wrong.

The paradox is that one can be raised with "thou shalt not kill" or whatever ethical equivalent makes one believe taking a human life to be wrong vs self-preservation/duty/doing what one has to do.

I guess that all depends on how you define "thou shalt not kill"...

Do you define it as "thou shalt not kill under any circumstances ever"?

Or do you define it as "thou shalt not murder"?

I would have to assume that "thou shalt not kill" would NOT apply to killing a wild animal that is attacking you, like a bear.

Therefore, "thou shalt not kill" should also NOT apply if said wild animal was a human.

A good question. I'd say both schools of thought exist. My belief has always been that "thou shalt not kill" applied to murder.

However, was not Moses denied entry to the Promised Land by God for having killed an Egyptian guard?

I thought it was because he refused to give honor to God at the waters of Meribah?

Numbers 27:12-14

12 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go up this mountain in the Abarim range and see the land I have given the Israelites. 13 After you have seen it, you too will be gathered to your people, as your brother Aaron was, 14 for when the community rebelled at the waters in the Desert of Zin, both of you disobeyed my command to honor me as holy before their eyes." (These were the waters of Meribah Kadesh, in the Desert of Zin.)

Immie

 

[strollingbones]

the ego of mankind..that we, as a race, matter enough in the span of time, to be redeemed...i dont buy into it...your only hope is here and now....living a good life...and trying to do the best thing you can....but we are nothing....we consider ourselves superior and the top of the food chain...we flatter ourselves ...with deep philosphical thought and reason...but in reality we are no different from the other species on earth....perhaps even worse off for it.

 

[Toro]

I am curious to see what everyone believes it to be. BTW .. I was raised a Southern Baptist in a staunchly Democratic family and most of the congregation was the same. What you need to work on is reconciliation. Your belief that Christianity is exclusively rightwing versus reality.

Depends for what one wishes to be redeemed and from whom one seeks redemption.

There are some things for which redemption can never be reached, i.e. mass murder. Most others though probably can.

 

[Foxfyre]

I guess that all depends on how you define "thou shalt not kill"...

Do you define it as "thou shalt not kill under any circumstances ever"?

Or do you define it as "thou shalt not murder"?

I would have to assume that "thou shalt not kill" would NOT apply to killing a wild animal that is attacking you, like a bear.

Therefore, "thou shalt not kill" should also NOT apply if said wild animal was a human.

A good question. I'd say both schools of thought exist. My belief has always been that "thou shalt not kill" applied to murder.

However, was not Moses denied entry to the Promised Land by God for having killed an Egyptian guard?

I thought it was because he refused to give honor to God at the waters of Meribah?

Numbers 27:12-14

12 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go up this mountain in the Abarim range and see the land I have given the Israelites. 13 After you have seen it, you too will be gathered to your people, as your brother Aaron was, 14 for when the community rebelled at the waters in the Desert of Zin, both of you disobeyed my command to honor me as holy before their eyes." (These were the waters of Meribah Kadesh, in the Desert of Zin.)

Immie

Well, if you take the text literally, Moses was denied the promised land because he struck the rock to bring forth water for the thirsty people rather than speaking to the rock as YHWH (God) had instructed. But all the ancient text is intended to be understood within all of the context and historical memory/understanding of the people and this was no exception. Moses expanded on it with his farewell address to the people. The rabbis teach it that the rock is symbolic of the people who had become disallusioned and hardened. Rather than trusting them to hear and understand the word of God, he struck out at them with his rod. A leader is allowed misjudgment by overestimating the ability of the people, but he is not allowed to underestimate them. By doing so, Moses lost his standing to be their leader.

And yes there is a lesson in that for now, too, but we agreed to keep politics out of this.

 

[Smartt33]

So is killing another person, be it in war or self defense, something a human can redeem himself for. Is that where we are?


I think most people on here have said yes, you can redeem yourself for those actions. Be it forgiving yourself, or asking God for forgiveness, or both.

God can forgive even Charles Manson - if Charles Manson truly repents of his sins. That is a scary thought! God is a lot nicer than I am!!

But then you have to ask yourself why "God" allowed those brutal murders by Manson and his cult.

No, you don't have to ask that. Would you rather God control you, anmd your every decision and behavior? That is not how God created us, nor soes He want us to be robots.

Spiritual redemption is something that Hod provided for, and we accept. He did not ask us if we wanted to be receemed. He knew we needed it.

Redemption is also something that happens in relationships among civilized people. We say "I'm sorry." We are forgiven, and the relationship is redeemed.

We sometimes pay for our wrongs to others, voluntarily. We get redemption through that effort.

In the end, redeemed or not is something that we have some input into. If we are not repentent, redemption will ont come. In human relationsl redemption, it is our choice to request redemption. In the Spiritual sense, God paid the price for us, even while we were in the middle of our sins. He made a way before we realized we needed a way. His redemption is a gift to us.

 

[goldcatt]

Some people have said it's about admitting our faults. I agree, but that's only half of it - and the easier half, too. It's about admitting our faults and understanding it's all right to have them, that we don't have to be perfect or have lived perfect lives to be worthy. Whether that means worthy in the eyes of God, or of our fellow humans, or of ourselves, is a personal issue. It's not about religion, it's about acceptance.

 

[Avatar4321]

Redemption is the processing of buying something back. So some sort of purchase has to be made on our behalf in order to be redeemed. Either made by us or by others.

Course, if you are Christian you believe that only Christ can redeem us. After all, it would require someone who didnt need to be redeem to redeem others. Because if we are in debt, how could we pay off the debts of others?

Id love to see more people seek and find redemption. Id like our nation to be redeemed too. We are borrowing way too much from other nations right now.

 

[Foxfyre]

Redemption is the processing of buying something back. So some sort of purchase has to be made on our behalf in order to be redeemed. Either made by us or by others.

Course, if you are Christian you believe that only Christ can redeem us. After all, it would require someone who didnt need to be redeem to redeem others. Because if we are in debt, how could we pay off the debts of others?

Id love to see more people seek and find redemption. Id like our nation to be redeemed too. We are borrowing way too much from other nations right now.

Your understanding/definition of redemption is pretty close to mine I think.

 

[Barb]

Redemption,

It is what you make it to be.

You don't have to be a Christian to redeem yourself.

But Christians can by asking for forgiveness, but if they don't walk the walk, it really doesn't mean much, does it?

I am a Christian. I walk what I talk. That is irrelevant. I didn't ask for a religion, nor someone's political stance on religion.

Religious or not, can redemption be attained, and who redeems?

I think so. Doesn't everyone deserve a second chance if they're willing and wanting to work for it? As to who: wouldn't that have to be the person in question? If you can't forgive yourself, what does it matter what anyone else thinks? This is what makes redemption different from grace, but connected in a way. We all need a little grace from the people we share space with here on this earth, and those of us least deserving of grace are most in need of it. That grace, given, can (although it isn't necessary it is conducive) encourage a person to undertake changes in behavior that will make them feel better about themselves (redeemed).

 

[Avatar4321]

Redemption is the processing of buying something back. So some sort of purchase has to be made on our behalf in order to be redeemed. Either made by us or by others.

Course, if you are Christian you believe that only Christ can redeem us. After all, it would require someone who didnt need to be redeem to redeem others. Because if we are in debt, how could we pay off the debts of others?

Id love to see more people seek and find redemption. Id like our nation to be redeemed too. We are borrowing way too much from other nations right now.

Your understanding/definition of redemption is pretty close to mine I think.

All i did was look it up in the dictionary

 

[Barb]

What morality do we hold that is not man-made programming? And is ther really any grace?

Given the men I have known I do not think humanity intelligent enough to provide the grace I have been granted.

God knows I am not.

My wife should not stay with me, I wouldn't, be she loves me.

I have a son that is the moon, what did I do to deserve him other than give my wife a night of howling to the moon?

I drink like a fish yet my liver is fine.

I like to get drunk and fly on motorcycles at speeds that could crack sound.

No death, only one wreckless driving charge.

There is grace in this world.

But grace is like love, if you question it too much you will kill it.

You have the heart of a poet. Substance abuse abounds in that community. Sometimes I think it is a few too many nerves exposed that produces the poetry, and the pain to be dulled.

 

[Avatar4321]

But then you have to ask yourself why "God" allowed those brutal murders by Manson and his cult.

Its not difficult to understand really. God allows us to exercise our agency. He has already paid with His own blood for those lives that were taken. Anything lost will be restored.

 

[Foxfyre]

Redemption is the processing of buying something back. So some sort of purchase has to be made on our behalf in order to be redeemed. Either made by us or by others.

Course, if you are Christian you believe that only Christ can redeem us. After all, it would require someone who didnt need to be redeem to redeem others. Because if we are in debt, how could we pay off the debts of others?

Id love to see more people seek and find redemption. Id like our nation to be redeemed too. We are borrowing way too much from other nations right now.

Your understanding/definition of redemption is pretty close to mine I think.

All i did was look it up in the dictionary

Yes, but in the context that Gunny (finally) put it, the definition needs to be tailored to the immediate existing need. And he, along with others here, inadvertently keeps moving the target.

So, from my perspective, we have folks here blending and sometimes confusing related but different issues:

Redemption: when somebody else pays what we owe.

Grace: undeserved redemption.

Forgiveness: not imposing consequence for wrongs/injustices committed by another.

Repentence: regret for our bad choices, bad thoughts, bad actions of commission and omission, but more importantly determination to not repeat the offense and, when possible, to make a good effort to fix whatever we broke.

 

[Barb]

Well, what I get from this thread is Gunny is asking if someone redeems himself, (or herself) but can't forgive himself, then what?


Maybe someone could put an example of that out there.

Spot on. What if ...

You have to take another person's life and you totally don't believe in that. You know you have to, it's for the greater good ... nonetheless you hold yourself accountable for it.

You and botoxilox have hit the nail a couple of times. What if you cannot forgive yourself, regardless what is promised by your religion?

If you're a religious man, and believe that God forgives you, I would have to ask you who you think you are to hold a grudge against yourself that God does not. You are not letting your troubles rest with the Lord, but holding on to them and hurting yourself with them.

From a secular point of view, we only have one life to do good while we're here. Sometimes we do not so good. Sometimes we do bad. Its a process. If we didn't get to know bad up close and personal, how would we fully appreciate good? If we can't let go of the bad we have seen, and sometimes found ourselves participating in, how will we break free of it and do the most good we can in the time we have left? In that case, failure to accept grace in whatever form we find it and move past troubled times wastes energy that would be better spent being a positive force in the world.

Meanwhile, on a purely practical note, if one takes a life, but in doing so saves many more, and aside from that also saves many others (unrelated to life taken) at personal risk to ones own, wouldn't it be a cruel and heartless judge that would condemn? Would you be so harsh on others as you are on yourself?

The Soldiers Final Inspection

The soldier stood and faced his God,
Which must always come to pass;
He hoped his shoes were shining bright,
Just as brightly as his brass.

"Step forward now, soldier,
How shall I deal with you?
Have you turned the other cheek?
To my church have you been true?"

The soldier squared his shoulders and said,
"No, Lord, I guess I ain't;
Because those of us who carry guns,
Can't always be a saint.

I've had to work most Sundays,
And at times my talk was rough;
I've had to break your rules my Lord,
Because the world is awfully tough.

But, I never took a thing
That wasn't mine to keep;
Though I worked a lot of overtime,
When the bills got just too steep.

And I never passed a cry for help,
Though at times I shook with fear;
And sometimes ... God forgive me,
I've wept unmanly tears.

I know I don't deserve a place
Among the people here;
They never wanted me around,
Except to calm their fears.

If you've a place for me here, Lord,
It needn't be so grand;
I never expected or had too much,
But if you don't, I'll understand."

There was a silence all around the throne,
Where the saints often trod;
As the soldier waited quietly,
For the judgment of his God.

"Step forward now, soldier,
You've borne your burdens well;
Come walk peacefully on Heaven's streets,
You've done your time in HELL!"

Soldiers Final Inspection...a veteran stands before God...poem for our troops past and present

The music sucks...and good GAWD I know Marines don't cry...

 

[Gunny]

I am curious to see what everyone believes it to be. BTW .. I was raised a Southern Baptist in a staunchly Democratic family and most of the congregation was the same. What you need to work on is reconciliation. Your belief that Christianity is exclusively rightwing versus reality.

Oh my gosh........me too. That is why I laugh at all the "real (talk radio) conservatives" who equate being a Democrat with killing babies, having gay sex and hating God. My dad was a WWII Marine vet, Southern Baptist Deacon and lifelong Democrat and they didn't build them any finer than him.

Yep. However many churches are running left wingers off with their preaching politics from the pulpit. LIberals are equated with satan in many sermons.
That is just all so wrong in a supposed Christain? church.

Which churches? The only churches I've seen preaching politics are like Rev Wright's. Not sure I'd call that rightwing. In any case, this isn't about politics.

It's about ethics. Mine happen to be religious, but I'm not shoving them down anyone's throat, and I have stated several times one's ethics do not have to be based on a religion to participate.

We CAN do this without it turning into a right vs left thing.

 

[Gunny]

You have a point...and I am assuming that they have not and cannot forgive themselves for what they have done.

I suppose this would be an example of redeeming one's self while not forgiving oneself for the action.

Or...maybe they are not truly redeemed, but they are reformed.

So what you are saying is:

Redemption is the changing of actual behavior/thought. Or, not doing it again if you feel it's wrong.

Forgiveness applies to past behavior/thought that one feels is wrong.

The paradox is that one can be raised with "thou shalt not kill" or whatever ethical equivalent makes one believe taking a human life to be wrong vs self-preservation/duty/doing what one has to do.

In that case, I think 'redemption' is the wrong word. I think you're talking about forgiveness. Two different things.

Forgiving oneself for acting in opposition to one's belief is difficult. Someone I know felt inclined to make amends for what he felt he had done wrong and did this. He has, I think, found a way to live with his past. I think it must take a lot of courage to do.

Actually, I guess I am talking both.

 

[Gunny]

explain ....

oh, and flamers fuck off. I'll delete your posts. Fair warning.

Simply put, it's an element of salvation that means the deliverance from sin. Yes, you can be redeemed, but you're going to have to come to terms with the intense anger you have inside of you.

I only have anger towards you, padwan.

 

[California Girl]

So what you are saying is:

Redemption is the changing of actual behavior/thought. Or, not doing it again if you feel it's wrong.

Forgiveness applies to past behavior/thought that one feels is wrong.

The paradox is that one can be raised with "thou shalt not kill" or whatever ethical equivalent makes one believe taking a human life to be wrong vs self-preservation/duty/doing what one has to do.

In that case, I think 'redemption' is the wrong word. I think you're talking about forgiveness. Two different things.

Forgiving oneself for acting in opposition to one's belief is difficult. Someone I know felt inclined to make amends for what he felt he had done wrong and did this. He has, I think, found a way to live with his past. I think it must take a lot of courage to do.

Actually, I guess I am talking both.

In that case, mo chara, ask God to redeem you for your sins and learn to forgive yourself - because He already has. He knows what is in your heart.