Question for rtwng

[crazy canadian]

Originally posted by MtnBiker
The problem is with a socialist system you are asking people to subidize some of your poor choices.

You drink - that is a choice you have made thus potential.y
effecting your life and the life of your children.

You have children - again your choice (unless concieved by rape, unlikely though) bringing a human life into this world takes responsiblity.

Your children face racism - we all face challenges in life nothing should be taken for granted. There are law to protect people.

You have no right arm - if born in that condition it would be likely that some form of government assistance in this capitalistic system would be available. Also prothesis are availble to regain maximum normal usage. I have been to and donated to several fundraisers for people and their medical condition, it happens people have compassion.

Everyone knows the answer. Get a job and quit drinking. That's just not an answer they like. They'd rather steal.

****************
You act as thought these choices are clear as water, no room for mud.
Convince yourself that everyone SHOULD be able to funcion equally in society, and build yourself a robotic, capitalist society.
Cut the dead weight.

Where are the socialists?
I'm gone fishin'!!!!!!

 

[MtnBiker]

Originally posted by crazy canadian

You act as thought these choices are clear as water, no room for mud.

In life things do happen, quite true. But recognize that there does exsist a safety net when people are down. But that safety net should not be used as a means for a livelyhood. Again we all face challenges and setbacks in life but it is our duty to face such challenges at the best of our ability.

 

[Tippy Toes]

In any society you are responsible for yourself. When you become an adult, accountability, and responsibility are what it's all about.

Once you start giving people everything to live, why work? Many are satisfied with mediocrity.

Life is harsh for all, and socialism doesn't take that away, or even, even it out. It just makes more people mediocre.

Getting up everyday, and working 8hrs. at a crappy job is not fun. Socialism will not make it any funner. With Capitalism at least you can dream, and work hard. Socialism, why bother.

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by crazy canadian
Then why not set up a big, capitalist, charity organization that teaches people how to function in society?
They come to you with a problem, and you help them fix it?
Like, I live in a poor community, I have no right arm, my kids are subject to racism, and I drink. Please help me live like you want me to.
And you can help them out?
And turn them into a capitalist.

There are hundereds of such organizations out there.

Drink too much? Join AA.
Need help finding a job? Check the want ads or hire yourself out to a temp agency.
Your kids are subject to racism? I recommend teaching them the right way to live (i.e. show love to other people), but who the hell isn't subject to some kind of discrimination in this world? I'm a white Christian male and I'm hated by people like the ACLU. In the words of Dennis Leary, life sucks, get a freakin' helmet!

 

[Tippy Toes]

Originally posted by gop_jeff
There are hundereds of such organizations out there.

Drink too much? Join AA.
Need help finding a job? Check the want ads or hire yourself out to a temp agency.
Your kids are subject to racism? I recommend teaching them the right way to live (i.e. show love to other people), but who the hell isn't subject to some kind of discrimination in this world? I'm a white Christian male and I'm hated by people like the ACLU. In the words of Dennis Leary, life sucks, get a freakin' helmet!

Good answer. Problem is the do-gooders don't see the hardship they themselves face everyday, they just want to feel sorry for somebody. Feel sorry for yourself, it's a hard life for everybody, even the rich.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by crazy canadian
Everyone knows the answer. Get a job and quit drinking. That's just not an answer they like. They'd rather steal.

****************
You act as thought these choices are clear as water, no room for mud.
Convince yourself that everyone SHOULD be able to funcion equally in society, and build yourself a robotic, capitalist society.
Cut the dead weight.

Where are the socialists?
I'm gone fishin'!!!!!!

I don't expect people to function equally in society. We are of vastly different skill levels. I'm saying noone has a right to take what isn't theirs. Must the greatest among us be shackled to the least for all eternity? The choices are clear. Stealing is wrong.

 

[crazy canadian]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
I don't expect people to function equally in society. We are of vastly different skill levels. I'm saying noone has a right to take what isn't theirs. Must the greatest among us be shackled to the least for all eternity? The choices are clear. Stealing is wrong.

Without gov't, where are your roads? Where are your hospitals? Where are your schools? Are you saying that because you've already made it, thanks gov't, that's enough of you now, take off and give me the rest of my money because 'I' don't need you anymore?? 'I''ve made it, so too bad for those who didn't, I'm not giving you anymore of 'my' money? The gov't had a responsibility to provide infrastructure and jobs and everything you needed to make it, and now that 'you've' made it, you want to cut them out of the picture? The gov't was there to help the generations before you and may be the reason you are fortunate enough to be where you are today. How can you say that is long enough?
It's true that things have changed and now the gov't may not look so hot in your eyes, like perhaps they aren't putting your money where you think it should be, but unless you are willing to take over the responsibilities of the gov't by providing for those less fortunate, how can the gov't give you back your money?

I need to remember the good points about capitalism, like the incentive to work etc, because this part goes to socialism, hands down. It's not stealing. I don't have a right to take your money, the gov't does. You wouldn't have a car to drive to work, or a road to get you there if it wasn't for the gov't. And different skill levels are not the reason some get ahead, a lot has to do with circumstance. And the greatest among us are a mixture of rich and poor, I really do hope that was a joke.

 

[Avatar4321]

Originally posted by crazy canadian
Without gov't, where are your roads? Where are your hospitals? Where are your schools? Are you saying that because you've already made it, thanks gov't, that's enough of you now, take off and give me the rest of my money because 'I' don't need you anymore?? 'I''ve made it, so too bad for those who didn't, I'm not giving you anymore of 'my' money? The gov't had a responsibility to provide infrastructure and jobs and everything you needed to make it, and now that 'you've' made it, you want to cut them out of the picture? The gov't was there to help the generations before you and may be the reason you are fortunate enough to be where you are today. How can you say that is long enough?
It's true that things have changed and now the gov't may not look so hot in your eyes, like perhaps they aren't putting your money where you think it should be, but unless you are willing to take over the responsibilities of the gov't by providing for those less fortunate, how can the gov't give you back your money?

I need to remember the good points about capitalism, like the incentive to work etc, because this part goes to socialism, hands down. It's not stealing. I don't have a right to take your money, the gov't does. You wouldn't have a car to drive to work, or a road to get you there if it wasn't for the gov't. And different skill levels are not the reason some get ahead, a lot has to do with circumstance. And the greatest among us are a mixture of rich and poor, I really do hope that was a joke.

So what you are saying is that without government their would be no hospitals or schools? Correct me if im wrong but arent their private hospitals and school that run far better than the public ones? I mean hospitals do exist to make a profit like any other institution, if they dont they dont remain in business.

And also you are missing the entire argument. Its not that we shouldnt give away our money. Its that government shouldnt Take our money and give it to people. We should be allowed to do it ourselves. And while you dont believe the American people know how to use their money in the best way possible, me and many others have faith in the American people. Men and women should be free so that they can exercise their freedom through virtue. Because without freedom there can be no virtue.

 

[Annie]

posted by CCdon't have a right to take your money, the gov't does.

Stealing by proxy?

It's true that things have changed and now the gov't may not look so hot in your eyes, like perhaps they aren't putting your money where you think it should be, but unless you are willing to take over the responsibilities of the gov't by providing for those less fortunate, how can the gov't give you back your money?

We've never favored the government doing things that could be done by private citizens, either alone, within groups, or local government. We especially do not like the federal government deciding what should be done at a local level.

 

[mattskramer]

QUOTE]Originally posted by crazy canadian
Without gov't, where are your roads?

In some areas, like roads, where government has had control for a very long time, we often can't imagine good free market solutions. We fall into the trap of "I can't think of how the market would solve this, which must mean that the market "can't" solve this".

The market, of course, is more imaginative than we can ever be,
since it is a composite of many minds, not just ours. The market has a great deal to "say" about roads, since most of them were private in the early days of the United States.

Yes, there were some toll roads back then, just as there would
undoubtedly be today. However, most roads were built and maintained by those who lived beside them. The businesses, homes, and farms built them for their own use and that of their customers or visitors, dividing the cost between themselves. In a libertarian society, I suspect that most business highways would operate this way too.

In St. Louis, neighborhoods are taking back their roads. Over 1,000 streets have been deeded back to separate neighborhood associations which are formed for that purpose. Those living on the road charge visitors nothing, but do restrict travel by closing off the street or expelling vagrants. Needless to say, crime is much lower on these private streets. Condo communities operate similarly except that their roads are built privately and remain private.


Where are your hospitals?

Socialized medicine, in any form, rarely helps people with expensive medical needs adequately. In Canada, heart patients die waiting for surgery, so those who can afford it come to the U.S. for treatment. In Britain, kidney dialysis is rarely approved for people over 55 years of age. The reason is simple: when government promises to take care of every little sniffle, everyone clamors for more of the 'free' service instead of dealing with simple medical needs themselves. As a result, medical resources must be rationed. By sacrificing one expensive patient, many more people with modest needs can be satisfied. From a political standpoint, this type of triage maximizes votes.

In the U.S., if a person with expensive needs manages to get care, Medicaid will not fully reimburse the health care providers. One of the hospitals I queried estimated that 80% of its shortfall was due not to deadbeats, but to partial payments by Medicare/Medicaid. To remedy this situation, hospitals charge those with private insurance more for their services. This increases the cost of insurance, and fewer people can afford it. When these people get ill, they turn to Medicare/Medicaid and the cycle repeats itself. Some doctors have become so frustrated with the paperwork, underpayments, and the liability that they incur for mistakes in coding their forms, that they will no longer take Medicare/Medicaid patients. Eventually, people with 'government' insurance will have a long wait to see a doctor that will work with the accompanying bureaucratic nightmare and may, like those in socialized systems, die in the interim.

A better solution would be to get the government out of health care at all levels so that costs and insurance plummet. My estimates suggest that we could see price decreases as great as 80%. Almost everyone could afford to be insured and have access to catastrophic medical treatment when they needed it.

Rare instances where an uninsured individual was not able to pay for care would still occur. However, health care providers would be more likely to take such charity cases if the cost of doing so was made more reasonable by getting government out of health care. An appeal to community charitable organizations might be sufficient to pay the lowered costs of marketplace health care as well.

Medicare/Medicaid is like putting a bandage on a hemorrhage. In the long run, it simply masks the true problem. Instead of treating the symptoms of high health care costs, let's cure the underlying disease -- government intervention!"

Where are your schools?

It has been well documented that private education outperforms public education in a wide variety of areas. Education should be privatized and attendance should be optional. There would be ways for the poor to receive an education. "Stay at home" parents (an other respected adults) may teach local children at home for a very small fee if parents so choose to send their children there. Cable stations that give a full educational curriculum and cost little more than HBO would probably become very popular. With such support, a child could learn at home or attend a school where cable instruction allowed teachers (or even parents) to focus on helping struggling students. Even without any extra support, poor children are likely to get vastly improved education at almost no cost. Private scholarships and grants would continue to exist. Local businesses give gifts to schools that do well in educating future prospective employees.

-------------

Just because government has done something does not mean that it had to do something or that it should continue to do that thing. So many things that government does today can be done (often better) by the private sector. Government should do little more than protect people against fraud and violence.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by crazy canadian
Without gov't, where are your roads? Where are your hospitals? Where are your schools? Are you saying that because you've already made it, thanks gov't, that's enough of you now, take off and give me the rest of my money because 'I' don't need you anymore?? 'I''ve made it, so too bad for those who didn't, I'm not giving you anymore of 'my' money? The gov't had a responsibility to provide infrastructure and jobs and everything you needed to make it, and now that 'you've' made it, you want to cut them out of the picture? The gov't was there to help the generations before you and may be the reason you are fortunate enough to be where you are today. How can you say that is long enough?
It's true that things have changed and now the gov't may not look so hot in your eyes, like perhaps they aren't putting your money where you think it should be, but unless you are willing to take over the responsibilities of the gov't by providing for those less fortunate, how can the gov't give you back your money?

I need to remember the good points about capitalism, like the incentive to work etc, because this part goes to socialism, hands down. It's not stealing. I don't have a right to take your money, the gov't does. You wouldn't have a car to drive to work, or a road to get you there if it wasn't for the gov't. And different skill levels are not the reason some get ahead, a lot has to do with circumstance. And the greatest among us are a mixture of rich and poor, I really do hope that was a joke.

Typical straw man argument. I never said I didn't want government. Since your post was based on either an intentional misrepresenation or an inadvertant misunderstanding, I dismiss it wholly.

 

[crazy canadian]

...and I withdraw my position as a socialist.
I can't argue for an ideology I don't fully understand, or believe in.
Can you figure something out that makes capitalism work, but doesn't entirely leave the socialists out of the picture?

Like if you say 'the safety nets aren't good enough, but capitalism will take care of that' then I have something to believe in.

 

[Annie]

Originally posted by crazy canadian
...and I withdraw my position as a socialist.
I can't argue for an ideology I don't fully understand, or believe in.
Can you figure something out that makes capitalism work, but doesn't entirely leave the socialists out of the picture?

Might a better question be: How can the individual make a capitalistic society more constructive to the least of its members? Here I'm speaking of caring for those who are unable: children, elderly, physically and mentally permantly disabled. Not speaking of drug addicts, alcholics, people who choose not to work.

For those who have lost a job, etc., businesses have been pretty good at re-educating for the workforce. There are many private groups that do the same.

 

[crazy canadian]

Yes!

But don't think that alcoholics brought it on themselves, sometimes poverty simply is too much to bear. Or because humans are only human, they don't always make the right choices. You can't let people think you don't have a heart.

People who choose not to work? Kick 'em into the ocean.

 

[Annie]

Originally posted by crazy canadian
Yes!

I'm trying to figure out, do you live in the US or Canada? If you have been living here, I would hope that you have become familiar with all the programs probably within 3 miles of your home. Nearly every church, synagog, public library have programs from food pantries for those 'caught short' by job layoffs or the 'working poor'. There are sliding fee day care centers. There are ESL programs in probably 5 or 6 locations 5 nights a week and on Saturday, (I know because I've volunteered at some of them.) My father goes to a senior center once in awhile, lots of old vet there. When my mom was alive and living with me, while she had 24 hour nursing, a hospice volunteer came at least once a week for her and the family.

Not saying that the government 'safety net' has ever been or would ever be, hole proof. Just that the most effective way to care for those that are unable, at least around here has been private people doing the right thing or giving money to those that will.

 

[crazy canadian]

I don't believe the social safety nets of this country are good enough yet. Sometimes people need to be checked up on, or shown where to turn.

 

[Annie]

I'm so sorry to hear about your daughter, I hope she is doing fine. You too. No doubt, a big problem for that time.

However your case illustrates the problem. You were dealing with insurance companies and hospitals, both of which are lesser bureacracies than the government. Again, I'm unclear, did you come to the states for hospital care? Were you here for work and all these bad things happened? Or are you US citizen from a community by the hospital?

If one has ties in the community or a good social worker at the hospital, there were private groups to help, many on a sliding scale. That's what I think many have been trying to explain.

 

[crazy canadian]

Originally posted by Kathianne
I'm so sorry to hear about your daughter, I hope she is doing fine. You too. No doubt, a big problem for that time.

However your case illustrates the problem. You were dealing with insurance companies and hospitals, both of which are lesser bureacracies than the government. Again, I'm unclear, did you come to the states for hospital care? Were you here for work and all these bad things happened? Or are you US citizen from a community by the hospital?

If one has ties in the community or a good social worker at the hospital, there were private groups to help, many on a sliding scale. That's what I think many have been trying to explain.

We are here for work, and this stuff happened. I'm not sure the ties in the community thing works for all people who are sitting in their home depressed, or addicted to alcohol or drugs, or whatever other reason keeps them at the bottom of the pole. Perhaps a gov't run community social worker for each community is the answer? Someone who is responsible for checking up on things around the neighborhood? I wasn't aware of private groups to help, and my head wasn't in a postition to go looking for them at the time. I see your point about dealing with hospitals and insurance co.'s. Perhaps mine wasn't the best example to use. But, it does point out that not everyone has someone showing them where to turn.

 

[Annie]

Originally posted by crazy canadian
We are here for work, and this stuff happened. I'm not sure the ties in the community thing works for all people who are sitting in their home depressed, or addicted to alcohol or drugs, or whatever other reason keeps them at the bottom of the pole. Perhaps a gov't run community social worker for each community is the answer? Someone who is responsible for checking up on things around the neighborhood? I wasn't aware of private groups to help, and my head wasn't in a postition to go looking for them at the time. I see your point about dealing with hospitals and insurance co.'s. Perhaps mine wasn't the best example to use. But, it does point out that not everyone has someone showing them where to turn.

Every community or country HAS a social service agency, with more than one social worker.

I will grant you that in the US it is imperative to have some ties to the community. I do not think that it would be good to be a foreigner in ANY country and come down with a life or death illness. It happened to my friend in Italy and the doctor there recommended getting her stabalized and getting back to US. He helped them do that, but they have lots of $, I'll grant you that. Italy IS socialist btw.

 

[crazy canadian]

Originally posted by Kathianne
Every community or country HAS a social service agency, with more than one social worker.

I will grant you that in the US it is imperative to have some ties to the community. I do not think that it would be good to be a foreigner in ANY country and come down with a life or death illness. It happened to my friend in Italy and the doctor there recommended getting her stabalized and getting back to US. He helped them do that, but they have lots of $, I'll grant you that. Italy IS socialist btw.

The difference between my idea of the social worker in the community is the checking up on people idea. I don't think you need to snoop around, that takes away from privacy and certain rights, but the people who need help sometimes are the last ones to go looking for it. Part of the human condition. I think those are the people who are alienated and criticized. You can't assume you wouldn't do the same if your circumstances were different, plus everyone's brains work differently.

I guess to introduce capitalism as a friendly ideology to everyone you would have to advertise the strong need for having ties in the community then?