Zone1 Praying to the Saints

[there4eyeM]

I'm just a mortal man, like you. I have no more power to pray on your behalf, than you have to pray on your own behalf. I have no power to meaningfully intercede on your behalf, with God.

The premise on which the veneration of saints is based seems to rest heavily on the premise that being in the same place as God, they are in a position to address him more directly than we mortals are able to do, and to influence Him in a way that we cannot. The idea that we can pray to them, and get them to influence God on our behalf, would appear to make them intercessors of the sort that the Bible makes clear is a role belonging exclusively to Jesus.

See post #44.

 

[Votar Roja]

The referenced post stated that Jesus instructed how to pray. Timothy's thoughts on the matter have debatable significance in the context.
The principle of Christianity is that Jesus is the sole/soul intercessor and the only one who could be.

The idea of Christians praying for each other is not a Catholic or protestant idea or argument.
ALL CHRISTIANITY accepts the fact that we can pray for each other. Thats just a fact.

If you think it is wrong to pray for your mom or dad or a friend then you are outside the bounds of authentic Christianity.

 

[there4eyeM]

The idea of Christians praying for each other is not a Catholic or protestant idea or argument.
ALL CHRISTIANITY accepts the fact that we can pray for each other. Thats just a fact.

If you think it is wrong to pray for your mom or dad or a friend then you are outside the bounds of authentic Christianity.

Not the same subject.

 

[Votar Roja]

From a NON-Catholic source, the "Church of God"

Intercessory Prayer: How to Pray for Others
God appreciates people who pray fervently for others facing trials. Why does God command intercessory prayer, and how does He want us to pray for others?

Intercessory Prayer: How to Pray for Others

God appreciates people who pray fervently for others facing trials. Why does God command intercessory prayer, and how does He want us to pray for others?

lifehopeandtruth.com

What is intercessory prayer?​

Intercessory prayer is prayer for the needs of others. Praying for others is an unselfish expression of love.

Why does God want us to pray for others? Because intercessory prayer reflects God’s own character of outgoing love and mercy. God wants us to think like He does, and praying for others helps us to think beyond ourselves and to grow in compassion for others.

God compares prayer with sweet-smelling incense that pleases Him (Revelation 5:8).

Who should we pray for?​

God gives us instructions to pray for others in several places in the Bible. The apostle James tells us to “pray for one another, that you may be healed” (James 5:16).

The apostle Paul encourages us to intercede (pray) for Church members and ministers, “praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints—and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains” (Ephesians 6:18-20).

Paul urges us “that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence” (1 Timothy 2:1-2, emphasis added throughout).

So we are even to pray for government leaders and others who may not know we exist and who haven’t asked us to pray for them.

Jesus Christ even commanded, “Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you” (Matthew 5:44, emphasis added).

Jesus’ example of intercessory prayer​

In the midst of His greatest trial, Jesus prayed fervently. What would you have prayed about when facing torture and death? It’s fascinating to see what was on Jesus’ mind as He prayed, not only for Himself (Luke 22:41-42), but for His disciples and for us:

“As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me” (John 17:18-21).

Jesus did not just focus inward, but by His words and His prayers (John 13-17) showed that He wanted love and joy and peace and patience and all the fruit of God’s Spirit for His followers.

He knew that His trial would be their trial. He knew that when He, the good Shepherd, was struck, “the sheep will be scattered” (Mark 14:27). He prayed for them—and us—out of love and deep concern.

Jesus Christ is our Intercessor (Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25). He lived a human life of trials and challenges, so He understands what we are going through. He is at our side and can sympathize with our weaknesses, and He makes it possible for us to receive the mercy and help we need when we approach the “throne of grace” (Hebrews 4:15-16). And He wants us to learn to be intercessors too.

Misconceptions about intercessory prayer​

Intercessory prayer is not a numbers game. God does not have to wait until 10 or 20 or 100 people pray about a situation in order to intervene. Prayer is not a vote or petition that God has to act on if enough people “sign” it. Our prayers can’t force God to do anything.

God can and does act when the time is best, whether one person or a million people pray about it. Study more about God’s timing in our article “God’s Timing Is Perfect.”

Also, intercessory prayer is not something we should do to try to earn points with God so we can collect when something bad happens to us. Our motivation must be love—outgoing, unselfish concern.

Why does God want us to pray for others? Because intercessory prayer reflects God’s own character of outgoing love and mercy. God wants us to think like He does, and praying for others helps us to think beyond ourselves and to grow in compassion for others.What about the person seeking prayers? Can a person ask other believers to pray for him or her and then find it unnecessary to pray himself or herself?

No, we can’t delegate prayer. Prayer is part of our personal relationship with God, and so we must go to Him fervently ourselves, whether or not others are praying for us.

How to pray for others​

Prayer is a vital part of our communication with our loving Father in heaven. In the Bible He tells us how we can pray most effectively—in a way that pleases Him.

Here are a few biblical principles for effective intercessory prayer. We should:

• Pray for others from the heart, with deep feeling and sincerity. (See our article “Prayer From the Heart” for more about this.)
• Pray for others regularly. In what is often called the Lord’s Prayer, Jesus told us to pray, “Give us this day our daily bread” (Matthew 6:11; see “The Lord’s Prayer”). We should pray for our needs and the needs of others every day.
• Pray for others in detail. God knows everything; but He wants us to come to Him with all our specific requests because He likes to hear from us and to know what is important to us. The Bible compares our prayers to incense, and God loves prayers that are like “sweet incense beaten fine” (Leviticus 16:12). Detailed, thoughtful prayers are more pleasing than rushed, summary prayers to “bless everybody.” Making a prayer list or prayer journal can help you remember the details.
• Pray for others with faith, knowing that God has all power and loves the people we are praying for. Faith reminds us that God knows what is eternally best for each person, and that even if God does not answer in the way we want at the time we want, we can trust He has all of our best interests in mind. (For more about faith, study the scriptures in our article “What Is Faith?” and the other articles in that section.)
• Pray for others with love. Remember that names on a prayer list represent real people with deep needs, struggles and feelings. Consider that God loves each of them and wants us to have the same outgoing concern. Godly love is totally unselfish and is the essence of God’s character (see “God Is Love”).
• Pray for others fervently—with intensity, zeal and passion. James 5:16 tells us “the effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.”
• Pray for others with a desire to help where we can. This might include physical help and encouragement. Cards, calls and visits might be helpful. It is not wrong to tell a person you are praying for him or her if it will help encourage the person.
• Pray for others occasionally with fasting. When a situation is very serious or hits close to home for you, you may decide to fast and pray to draw close to God to present your supplication to Him. (Read more about the spiritual tool of fasting in our article “What Is Fasting?”)

Prayer list ideas​

Many find it helpful to make a list of the people and situations they plan to pray for. What should you include on your prayer list?

• Prayer requests. Many people in need submit formal prayer requests to their pastor to be announced at church, or through email or social media.
• Personal requests and things you become aware of through fellowship. Some people don’t feel comfortable submitting formal prayer requests, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t facing trials and needing encouragement.

God designed His Church so brethren can grow as a Christian family that supports each other. In addition to prayer requests that may be given formally, we can also get to know our brethren by fellowship. This will naturally provide many things our brethren are facing that we can pray about.

Hebrews 10:24-25 shows some of the responsibilities and benefits of Christian fellowship:

“And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.”

Study more about fellowship in our article “Christian Fellowship.”

• Personal needs of other friends and family members. Some may not request prayers, but our care for them can lead us to pray for them as well.
• News stories about disasters and other trials facing people. There is no end of people to pray about in this troubled world. These situations also lead us to “sigh and cry” and pray fervently for God’s Kingdom to come (Ezekiel 9:4; Matthew 6:10).

Bible verses about praying for others​

The Bible gives many examples of people praying for others, and we can learn a lot by studying and meditating on these examples. Here are just a few examples of intercessors in the Bible:

• Abraham interceded for the people of Sodom for the sake of his nephew Lot (Genesis 18:23-33). He memorably started by asking if God would spare Sodom if 50 righteous people were there. From there he boldly but humbly asked about 45, 40, 30, 20 and finally 10, and God answered, “I will not destroy it for the sake of ten.” Though God did not find 10, He fulfilled Abraham’s intent by sparing Lot and his family.
• Moses pleaded for God’s mercy for the sinning people of Israel (Exodus 32:9-14; Numbers 14:11-20). Moses turned down God’s offer to make a nation out of Moses’ descendants, and persuasively begged for God’s mercy for God’s name’s sake.
• Daniel begged God for his people (Daniel 9:3-19). Daniel’s passionate and meaningful prayer ends with his plea, “O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and act! Do not delay for Your own sake, my God, for Your city and Your people are called by Your name” (verse 19).
• The apostle Peter prayed for the beloved Dorcas, and God even raised her from the dead (Acts 9:36-41).
• The apostle Paul prayed regularly for the people he served (Romans 1:9-10; 10:1; Ephesians 1:15-19; Philippians 1:3-11; 1 Thessalonians 3:9-13).

 

[there4eyeM]

Jesuitism is insurmountable.

 

[ninja007]

the Bible nowhere instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God. The Bible nowhere encourages, or even mentions, believers asking individuals in heaven for their prayers. There is absolutely no scriptural basis to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no need to, either. Jesus, our Intercessor, has it covered. No one in heaven can mediate on our behalf except for Jesus Christ. Only God can hear and answer prayer. The temple veil was torn in two (Hebrews 10:19–20); the child of God on earth has just as much access to God’s throne of grace, in Jesus’ name, as anyone in heaven (Hebrews 4:16).

 

[ninja007]

The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking someone in heaven to pray for him or her. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in heaven praying for anyone on earth. Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in a negative context involving activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10–13; 1 Samuel 28:7–19).

 

[rampart]

I don't think you understand the true power of prayer. Prayer isn't for the "gods" or the saints. Prayer is for us. To affect changes in our lives. The practical application of religious beliefs - prayer being only one aspect - are about evolving our consciousness so as to be able to see reality. It is extremely powerful and leads to happiness and joy through the storms of life.

The practical application of prayer is to alter the fabric of one's identity.

Science shows that making a habit of being thankful trains the brain to be in a happy state of mind; making random acts of kindness a habit trains the brain to be in a happy state of mind; making being self reflective (contemplating your own actions) a habit trains the brain to be in a happy state of mind; and making meditation (prayer) a habit trains the brain to be in a happy state of mind. All things that religious people - especially Christians - do on a regular basis. Most importantly being happy turns on all the learning centers of the brain. So the practice of these religious practices have a practical application which naturally leads to success.

Lastly and probably most important, I was taught that prayer should not be about what God can do for us. Prayer should be about us asking God what He wants us to do.

So, no. Praying to saints is way more effective than praying to oak trees.

we catholics do not "pray to the saints," we pray for the particular strength and insight that each saint can pffer us, christopher offering wisdom and strength to travelers, jude for persevering vs hopelessness, etc. the difference is subtle.

 

[ding]

we catholics do not "pray to the saints," we pray for the particular strength and insight that each saint can pffer us, christopher offering wisdom and strength to travelers, jude for persevering vs hopelessness, etc. the difference is subtle.

I know. I was using the words of the person I was replying to to make my point about the effectiveness of prayer. He wasn't trying to make the case that Catholics are idolaters because we pray to saints. We don't. We ask the saints to pray for us.

 

[there4eyeM]

Asking the dead for something has a name; necromancy.
Saying that asking dead "saints" to do something is not praying to them is a proverbial distinction without a difference.

 

[rampart]

I know. I was using the words of the person I was replying to to make my point about the effectiveness of prayer. He wasn't trying to make the case that Catholics are idolaters because we pray to saints. We don't. We ask the saints to pray for us.

my grandmother, on the other hand, was a sicilian immigrant who kept a dresser top in her bedroom full if burning candles to various saints and her precious bottle of water from lourdes.

 

[ding]

my grandmother, on the other hand, was a sicilian immigrant who kept a dresser top in her bedroom full if burning candles to various saints and her precious bottle of water from lourdes.

I'm a Sicilian too!!!! Both sides of the family no less.

 

[ActionJackson]

Obviously this topic is not of much interest to non-Christians, but it is a big debate between, Catholics and Eastern Orthodox on one side, and protestants on the other.

The premise is very simple: If I can ask a fellow Christian on earth to pray for me, then I can also ask a fellow Christian in heaven to pray for me.

Its really just as simple as that.

How to Defend the Intercession of the Saints

Popular Catholic speaker Jason Evert answers the most common objections to the Catholic practice of praying to the saints in heaven. Click here.

www.catholic.com

The Bible Supports Praying to the Saints

Most "Bible-believing" Christians object to the Catholic practice of praying to the saints. Here is how to respond to the most common objections.

www.catholic.com

How to Defend the Intercession of the Saints

Popular Catholic speaker Jason Evert answers the most common objections to the Catholic practice of praying to the saints in heaven. Click here.

www.catholic.com

Why do Catholics pray to Mary and the Saints?​

Can the Saints in Heaven See What We Do On Earth?​

As a Christian, there is one Mediator between man and the Father and that's Jesus Christ. Why would anyone want to take glory from the Savior and give it to a mere mortal?

 

[nomadic5]

sometimes it is easier praying to a "human" now in Heaven...

our sins do separate us from God