Zone1 Praying to the Saints

[RetiredGySgt]

All that means is that you are misinterpreting the scripture and not harmonizing it with other scriptures.

I keep providing content that has tons of scripture to back up my position.
You alluded to one.
Let me know when you catch up.

How to Defend the Intercession of the Saints

Popular Catholic speaker Jason Evert answers the most common objections to the Catholic practice of praying to the saints in heaven. Click here.

www.catholic.com

The Bible Supports Praying to the Saints

Most "Bible-believing" Christians object to the Catholic practice of praying to the saints. Here is how to respond to the most common objections.

www.catholic.com

How to Defend the Intercession of the Saints

Popular Catholic speaker Jason Evert answers the most common objections to the Catholic practice of praying to the saints in heaven. Click here.

www.catholic.com

Why do Catholics pray to Mary and the Saints?​

Can the Saints in Heaven See What We Do On Earth?​

Catholic belief and defense is foolish as it is evil.

 

[there4eyeM]

I don't think you understand the true power of prayer. Prayer isn't for the "gods" or the saints. Prayer is for us. To affect changes in our lives. The practical application of religious beliefs - prayer being only one aspect - are about evolving our consciousness so as to be able to see reality. It is extremely powerful and leads to happiness and joy through the storms of life.

The practical application of prayer is to alter the fabric of one's identity.

Science shows that making a habit of being thankful trains the brain to be in a happy state of mind; making random acts of kindness a habit trains the brain to be in a happy state of mind; making being self reflective (contemplating your own actions) a habit trains the brain to be in a happy state of mind; and making meditation (prayer) a habit trains the brain to be in a happy state of mind. All things that religious people - especially Christians - do on a regular basis. Most importantly being happy turns on all the learning centers of the brain. So the practice of these religious practices have a practical application which naturally leads to success.

Lastly and probably most important, I was taught that prayer should not be about what God can do for us. Prayer should be about us asking God what He wants us to do.

So, no. Praying to saints is way more effective than praying to oak trees.

What is not understood is the power of faith. There is most certainly some correlation between what humans believe in and the effects it has on their experience.
That is why "praying" to trees might very well work for someone just as well as directing the same energy to one's conception of a deceased person.
As for Christians, their founder told them to ask in his name. He did not advise other than that.

 

[ding]

What is not understood is the power of faith. There is most certainly some correlation between what humans believe in and the effects it has on their experience.
That is why "praying" to trees might very well work for someone just as well as directing the same energy to one's conception of a deceased person.
As for Christians, their founder told them to ask in his name. He did not advise other than that.

Not understood by whom? Faith is having complete trust in something or someone. I never put complete trust in something or someone without good reason. I have faith that good comes from bad. My reason for that is logic and experience.

I'm not seeing the connection to praying to trees. There's no logic there. Nor have I ever witnessed anyone having success doing so, so there's no experience for that as well.

No one is praying to dead people. We may pray for dead people or ask saints to pray for us but that isn't even close to the same thing as praying to dead people. Saints are very much alive.

Jesus didn't tell me to wash my face in the morning but I do that too and it makes good sense to me. Just as everything I wrote in post #20 makes sense to me.

 

[ding]

Catholic belief and defense is foolish as it is evil.

You sure do throw around the evil word quite casually.

 

[there4eyeM]

You sure do throw around the evil word quite casually.

It is a much overused term.

 

[OneIsTheWord]

​

 

[ding]

It is a much overused term.

I prefer using "nuclear" responses sparingly. Lest they lose their effectiveness through misuse and desensitization. Use 'em when you really need 'em.

 

[ding]

​

Do you have anything that celebrates God per chance?

 

[onefour1]

Do Catholics spend more time praying to other beings than to their Father in Heaven? Isn't prayer a form of worship? Whenever in scripture are we taught to pray unto other beings beside God the Father?

 

[OneIsTheWord]

Do you have anything that celebrates God per chance?

yes, it is called the Great Banquet
The Bride of Christ

Matthew 25:1-13 (NKJV) "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Matthew 25: 3 Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them,
but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.
And at midnight a cry was heard: 'Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!'
Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps.
Matthew 25: 8 And the foolish said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
But the wise answered, saying, 'No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.'
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; the door was shut.
Matthew 25: 11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open to us!'
But he answered and said, 'Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.'
Watch, therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

But I'm not here to tell you smooth things
Who say to the seers, "Do not see," And to the prophets, "Do not prophesy to us right things; Speak to us smooth things, prophesy deceits.
Get out of the way, Turn aside from the path, Cause the Holy One of Israel To cease from before us."
Therefore thus says the Holy One of Israel: "Because you despise this word, And trust in oppression and perversity, And rely on them,
Therefore this iniquity shall be to you Like a breach ready to fall, A bulge in a high wall, Whose breaking comes suddenly, in an instant.
And He shall break it like the breaking of the potter's vessel, Which is broken in pieces; He shall not spare. So there shall not be found among its fragments A shard to take fire from the hearth, Or to take water from the cistern."
For thus says the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel: "In returning and rest you shall be saved; In quietness and confidence shall be your strength." But you would not,
And you said, "No, for we will flee on horses"-- Therefore you shall flee! And, "We will ride on swift horses"-- Therefore those who pursue you shall be swift!
One thousand shall flee at the threat of one, At the threat of five you shall flee, Till you are left as a pole on top of a mountain And as a banner on a hill.
Therefore the Lord will wait, that He may be gracious to you; And therefore He will be exalted, that He may have mercy on you. For the Lord is a God of justice; Blessed are all those who wait for Him.
For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem; You shall weep no more. He will be very gracious to you at the sound of your cry; When He hears it, He will answer you.
And though the Lord gives you The bread of adversity and the water of affliction, Yet your teachers will not be moved into a corner anymore, But your eyes shall see your teachers.
Isaiah 30:10-20 (NKJV)

 

[Meriweather]

...is about as effective as praying to oak trees.

Not in my experience...

 

[OneIsTheWord]

Obviously this topic is not of much interest to non-Christians, but it is a big debate between, Catholics and Eastern Orthodox on one side, and protestants on the other.

The premise is very simple: If I can ask a fellow Christian on earth to pray for me, then I can also ask a fellow Christian in heaven to pray for me.

Its really just as simple as that.

How to Defend the Intercession of the Saints

Popular Catholic speaker Jason Evert answers the most common objections to the Catholic practice of praying to the saints in heaven. Click here.

www.catholic.com

The Bible Supports Praying to the Saints

Most "Bible-believing" Christians object to the Catholic practice of praying to the saints. Here is how to respond to the most common objections.

www.catholic.com

How to Defend the Intercession of the Saints

Popular Catholic speaker Jason Evert answers the most common objections to the Catholic practice of praying to the saints in heaven. Click here.

www.catholic.com

Why do Catholics pray to Mary and the Saints?​

Can the Saints in Heaven See What We Do On Earth?​

The Saints are not in heaven, they are on earth

the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
Rev 4:10 (NKJV)

Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Rev 5:8 (NKJV)

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
Rev 6:9-11 (NKJV)

 

[ding]

yes, it is called the Great Banquet
The Bride of Christ
View attachment 846945
Matthew 25:1-13 (NKJV) "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Matthew 25: 3 Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them,
but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.
And at midnight a cry was heard: 'Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!'
Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps.
Matthew 25: 8 And the foolish said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
But the wise answered, saying, 'No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.'
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; the door was shut.
Matthew 25: 11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open to us!'
But he answered and said, 'Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.'
Watch, therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

But I'm not here to tell you smooth things
Who say to the seers, "Do not see," And to the prophets, "Do not prophesy to us right things; Speak to us smooth things, prophesy deceits.
Get out of the way, Turn aside from the path, Cause the Holy One of Israel To cease from before us."
Therefore thus says the Holy One of Israel: "Because you despise this word, And trust in oppression and perversity, And rely on them,
Therefore this iniquity shall be to you Like a breach ready to fall, A bulge in a high wall, Whose breaking comes suddenly, in an instant.
And He shall break it like the breaking of the potter's vessel, Which is broken in pieces; He shall not spare. So there shall not be found among its fragments A shard to take fire from the hearth, Or to take water from the cistern."
For thus says the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel: "In returning and rest you shall be saved; In quietness and confidence shall be your strength." But you would not,
And you said, "No, for we will flee on horses"-- Therefore you shall flee! And, "We will ride on swift horses"-- Therefore those who pursue you shall be swift!
One thousand shall flee at the threat of one, At the threat of five you shall flee, Till you are left as a pole on top of a mountain And as a banner on a hill.
Therefore the Lord will wait, that He may be gracious to you; And therefore He will be exalted, that He may have mercy on you. For the Lord is a God of justice; Blessed are all those who wait for Him.
For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem; You shall weep no more. He will be very gracious to you at the sound of your cry; When He hears it, He will answer you.
And though the Lord gives you The bread of adversity and the water of affliction, Yet your teachers will not be moved into a corner anymore, But your eyes shall see your teachers.
Isaiah 30:10-20 (NKJV)

So in other words nothing you can witness.

 

[Votar Roja]

I don't think you understand the true power of prayer . . . . .

When you start a post like that you are only asking for conflict. I understand more than you think I do.

Furthermore, this thread is specifically about asking the saints in heaven for their intercessory prayers.

For those who believe in the Bible, I have made my case beyond a shadow of a doubt,

How to Defend the Intercession of the Saints

Popular Catholic speaker Jason Evert answers the most common objections to the Catholic practice of praying to the saints in heaven. Click here.

www.catholic.com

The Bible Supports Praying to the Saints

Most "Bible-believing" Christians object to the Catholic practice of praying to the saints. Here is how to respond to the most common objections.

www.catholic.com

How to Defend the Intercession of the Saints

Popular Catholic speaker Jason Evert answers the most common objections to the Catholic practice of praying to the saints in heaven. Click here.

www.catholic.com

Why do Catholics pray to Mary and the Saints?​

Can the Saints in Heaven See What We Do On Earth?​

[/QUOTE]

 

[Votar Roja]

What is not understood is the power of faith. There is most certainly some correlation between what humans believe in and the effects it has on their experience.
That is why "praying" to trees might very well work for someone just as well as directing the same energy to one's conception of a deceased person. . . . . .

How insulting. Praying to trees?

 

[Votar Roja]

 

[cnm]

You are purposely insulting me.

It is not possible. I mean, if it was possible. it would be as amazing as the gawd that knows when a sparrow falls not knowing the wishes of his worshippers.

Perhaps though, YHWH answers only to a certain click rating and if one can't get the hits one doesn't get influenced...

 

[Votar Roja]

It is not possible. I mean, if it was possible. it would be as amazing as the gawd that knows when a sparrow falls not knowing the wishes of his worshippers.

Perhaps though, YHWH answers only to a certain click rating and if one can't get the hits one doesn't get influenced...

I am not interested in posts that do not discuss the topic

 

[Votar Roja]

What the Early Church Believed: The Intercession of the Saints

What the Early Church Believed: The Intercession of the Saints

Fundamentalists often challenge the Catholic practice praying to saints. But the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

www.catholic.com

Fundamentalists often challenge the Catholic practice of asking saints and angels to pray on our behalf. But the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

Thus, in Psalm 103 we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!”

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4).

Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: “See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 18:10).

Because he is the only God-man and the mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, because “[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16).

As the following passages show, the early Church Fathers not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life.

Hermas​

“[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

Clement of Alexandria​

“In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]” (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

Origen​

“But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep” (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

Cyprian of Carthage​

“Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy” (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).

Anonymous​

“Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins” (funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [A.D. 300]).
“Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days” (ibid.).
“Mother of God, [listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger” (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]).

Methodius​

“Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. . . . Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man” (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).
“Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away” (ibid.).
“And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’” (ibid.).

Cyril of Jerusalem​

“Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition” (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

Hilary of Poitiers​

“To those who wish to stand [in God’s grace], neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting” (Commentary on the Psalms 124:5:6 [A.D. 365]).

Ephraim the Syrian​

“You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him” (Commentary on Mark [A.D. 370]).
“Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day” (The Fear at the End of Life [A.D. 370]).

The Liturgy of St. Basil​

“By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name” (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).

Pectorius​

“Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ]” (Epitaph of Pectorius [A.D. 375]).

Gregory of Nazianz​

“May you [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and life; and shepherd this sacred flock . . . gladden the Holy Trinity, before which you stand” (Orations 17[24] [A.D. 380]).
“Yes, I am well assured that [my father’s] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind” (ibid., 18:4).

Gregory of Nyssa​

“[Ephraim], you who are standing at the divine altar [in heaven] . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom” (Sermon on Ephraim the Syrian [A.D. 380]).

John Chrysostom​

“He that wears the purple [i.e., a royal man] . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tentmaker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead” (Homilies on Second Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).
“When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God]” (Orations 8:6 [A.D. 396]).

Ambrose of Milan​

“May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ’s benign countenance” (The Six Days Work 5:25:90 [A.D. 393]).

Jerome​

“You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?” (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).

Augustine​

“A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers” (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).
“At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps” (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]).
“Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ” (The City of God 202 [A.D. 419]).

 

[Votar Roja]

Do you have anything that celebrates God per chance?

Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovas Witnesses spend more time spreading bigoted anti-Catholic hate propaganda then they do talking about their own beliefs.