Palestine 101

[amity1844]

Very short but to the point:


Isn't this accurate?

 

[Mr. H.]

I'm sure there are plenty of Jewish folk here that can answer that question.

 

[amity1844]

You mean Zionists?

 

[Daniyel]

You mean Zionists?

Just to set the term "Zionists".
Jewish is a race of the Semi culture of the past.
Judaism is a religion for about 99% of the Jewish people.
Israel is the state of the Jewish as it provide shelter and home for Jews.
Zionist goes by the name Zion as for the land of Israel by the biblical-relation, the Zionists were those who decided after the second exile 2000 years ago to return to Israel the land of prayers and culture to the Jewish people, formed in Europe they've been more modernized and they aimed to maybe one day establish a state by the name Israel, which happened about 50 years later in 1947.
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Okie I've seen the entire video and here what isn't accurate about it:
1."Over the years wars were fought with Israel but Israel won taking control of Palestinian land" - Palestinian never owned the land of Israel and basically are nomads, they've refused to accept any land from the U.N. and never declared as a state.
2."There wasn't a peace since.." - Israel returned conquered Sinai to Egypt and signed a peace agreement, Israel also made peace with Jordan and now in a close security cooperation and mutual share of the Kineret (Israel main source of water), Israel and South Lebanon Army used to work together fighting Terrorists, Lebanon broke it nesting Hezbollah and Iranian organizations which led to war eventually.
3. "The Settlements are just 10% of the settlers but taking most of the land" - the 10% is only the Jewish settlers, along with Baduie, Samertains, Duruze, Serkasians, and believe it or not, Israeli Arabs.
4."..Taking control as much land and water as possible.." - None of any Arab settlements (Israeli Arab/Palestinians) are legal therefore they don't pay any taxes, so why would they get water/electricity for free? makes no sense, also note that FEW Israeli Jewish settlements are legal.
5."The settlements are illegal by international law" - Big mistake, the legality of the settlements in the West Bank are legal by international law and under mostly European pressure Israel sometimes freeze or evacuate settlements.
6."Some settlements have a lot of guns" - Just a small note about the guns, Google "Itamar Massacre".
7.About the thing with the water, that is also a big issue, by international law Israel is forced to provide basic human needs to the West Bank citizens, Israel does it, I don't see how a successful high tech man like pre-politics Naftali Bennet for example won't afford himself a pool in his house, that's ridiculous.
8.I Got lazy quoting that bullshit, the checkpoints are critical for Israel security as they provide control over terrorists, firearms, drugs, stolen goods, and everything else, 20 minutes driving from Jerusalem you must set some kind of security, and this is fully legal by international law(also forced) and just another note that Palestinians get working/visiting/praying permits unless they are related to terrorists.
Anyway I don't want to go on with this, a one sided video like this can be made in one hour but it set so many questions and information that pretty much present the other side as a cruel sick monster which you won't even like to ask.
This kind of Science-Fiction is played in kindergartens in Gaza and breeds hatred, its great you are open minded but try to judge subjectively and not objectively.

 

[amity1844]

This is what I mean when I say Zionist:
Zionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is a legit term and far more accurate identification of the historic ideology and movement than "Jews" or "Israelis."
Jews aren't responsible for the acts of the Zionist minority. Even Israelis can't be blamed for much of what Zionism is doing/has done without their knowledge or consent.

 

[Daniyel]

This is what I mean when I say Zionist:
]Zionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is a legit term and far more accurate identification of the historic ideology and movement than "Jews" or "Israelis."
Jews aren't responsible for the acts of the Zionist minority. Even Israelis can't be blamed for much of what Zionism is doing/has done without their knowledge or consent.

There is a little confusion so I assumed so, My bad, about Zionism:
It is pretty much a term as "Conservative" or "Liberian" which can be changed by each persona or group, this word has been altered from Hebrew and has several meanings there are also different groups who called themselves Zionists and they are different as the sun and the moon differs although both are stars.

 

[amity1844]

Yes, but they are all Zionist.

And I like the accuracy of the term.

 

[Daniyel]

Yes, but they are all Zionist.

And I like the accuracy of the term.

What you mean 'They'? not all Jewish are Zionists.
P.s. I answered the question few replays above.

 

[amity1844]

Never said all Jews are Z's. That is manifestly NOT the case.

See many of my earlier posts which feature LOTS of anti-Zionist Jews.

 

[toastman]

Daniyel: welcome to the forum!

Since you're new, I want to warn you about the poster amity1844.

She is a lying anti Semitic propaganda spewing Palestinian shill.
She will constantly lie and lie and try to brainwash you with her distortion of history..

 

[teddyearp]

P.s. I answered the question few replays above.

Daniyel, welcome to the site. Although amity does seem to be one of those who try to be neutral here, I have found that when you post a lengthy post and punch a lot of holes in her post, she will do the ole, 'duck and dodge'. Do not expect her to actually respond fully to any well thought out and multi faceted rebuttal to anything she posts here. She will just either ignore it or start another thread.

Amity, sure your video could be called "accurate" as it contains a lot of factual information but as pointed out, the presentation is grossly without any timeline and therefore clearly distorts the context.

 

[MHunterB]

This is what I mean when I say Zionist:
Zionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is a legit term and far more accurate identification of the historic ideology and movement than "Jews" or "Israelis."
Jews aren't responsible for the acts of the Zionist minority. Even Israelis can't be blamed for much of what Zionism is doing/has done without their knowledge or consent.

Zionists are not a minority of Jews - not of religious, nor secular, nor of any subset of actual Jews-practicing-Judaism. And no, even in a democracy - like the US! - the general public ought not to be held responsible for what one or another administration may do without informing the public. As Americans in general are not responsible for the notorious 'Tuskeegee Syphilis Experiment' or any similar abuses. Tuskegee syphilis experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[amity1844]

Okie I've seen the entire video and here what isn't accurate about it:
1."Over the years wars were fought with Israel but Israel won taking control of Palestinian land" - Palestinian never owned the land of Israel and basically are nomads, they've refused to accept any land from the U.N. and never declared as a state.

Yes, Palestinians most definitely "owned" the land as surely as the indigenous black population "owned" South Africa. And this is going to end about like that ended, too. Palestinians are overwhelming NOT bedouin, and have lived on that land for millenia.

2."There wasn't a peace since.." - Israel returned conquered Sinai to Egypt and signed a peace agreement, Israel also made peace with Jordan and now in a close security cooperation and mutual share of the Kineret (Israel main source of water), Israel and South Lebanon Army used to work together fighting Terrorists, Lebanon broke it nesting Hezbollah and Iranian organizations which led to war eventually.

And when exactly was the peace you are referring to? The Zionist poster I saw said "Israel: 65 years and never a day of peace." Was that just because they wanted money?

3. "The Settlements are just 10% of the settlers but taking most of the land" - the 10% is only the Jewish settlers, along with Baduie, Samertains, Duruze, Serkasians, and believe it or not, Israeli Arabs.

Wow, I would LOVE to see a source for that. Non-Jewish settlers? What would be the point. Seriously, if you have a source for any of the above groups constituting a portion of settlers please let me know.

4."..Taking control as much land and water as possible.." - None of any Arab settlements (Israeli Arab/Palestinians) are legal therefore they don't pay any taxes, so why would they get water/electricity for free? makes no sense, also note that FEW Israeli Jewish settlements are legal.

Oh, but they DO pay taxes. Remember that tax revolt a few years back? It resulted in the Israeli military bursting into houses and confiscating multiple millions of dollars of property, watches wedding rings, etc. You didn't hear about that? Yes, the people of the West Bank do have to pay taxes. And the only definition by which the West Bankers are illegally there would be the Zionist, which refuses to issue building permits to Arabs, forcing them to build without permits, or live in the open air. Then of course the buildings are demolished without due process, and they have to rebuild them.

5."The settlements are illegal by international law" - Big mistake, the legality of the settlements in the West Bank are legal by international law and under mostly European pressure Israel sometimes freeze or evacuate settlements.

The settlements are 100% illegal under international law, never saw anyone say otherwise. Even the U.S. says they are illegal under international law and condemns them.

6."Some settlements have a lot of guns" - Just a small note about the guns, Google "Itamar Massacre".

Yes, settlements are armed to the teeth and always have been, which of course leads to a lot of violence.

7.About the thing with the water, that is also a big issue, by international law Israel is forced to provide basic human needs to the West Bank citizens, Israel does it, I don't see how a successful high tech man like pre-politics Naftali Bennet for example won't afford himself a pool in his house, that's ridiculous.

Israel does NOT provide basic services. They are taking the ground water, which obviously belongs to Palestinians, and diverting the rivers and streams to provide water to their own settlers. Then they divert the settlements raw sewage down onto Palestinian villages below.

8.I Got lazy quoting that bullshit, the checkpoints are critical for Israel security as they provide control over terrorists, firearms, drugs, stolen goods, and everything else, 20 minutes driving from Jerusalem you must set some kind of security, and this is fully legal by international law(also forced) and just another note that Palestinians get working/visiting/praying permits unless they are related to terrorists.

"Critical," huh? I am going to post a recent Israeli video which shows clearly that the checkpoints are about messing with Palestinians and trying to drive them out.

Anyway I don't want to go on with this, a one sided video like this can be made in one hour but it set so many questions and information that pretty much present the other side as a cruel sick monster which you won't even like to ask.
This kind of Science-Fiction is played in kindergartens in Gaza and breeds hatred, its great you are open minded but try to judge subjectively and not objectively.

No, I will stand by it as accurate, Israel has become a cruel, sick monster.

 

[MHunterB]

Never said all Jews are Z's. That is manifestly NOT the case.

See many of my earlier posts which feature LOTS of anti-Zionist Jews.

"Lots of" is still only some tens of thousands, out of 14 million. And you also grossly misrepresented those extremist fundamentalist 'Jews' as "Orthodox" - from which they had been ejected some three hundred years ago. You were corrected on that misrepresentation many times, but ignored it as well.

Each of those 'haredi' groups is almost like its own religion - just as SDA's and JW's will tell you that they are not 'Christians' OR that they are 'the faithful remnant', so it is with most of the haredim. And some of them are very like a cult - like the followers of Arnold Murray or Howard Camping.....

 

[MHunterB]

Yes, but they are all Zionist.

And I like the accuracy of the term.

Naaaah, you just like to use it to denigrate, dehumanize, delegitimate, and demonize about 95% of the Jewish People and anyone who agrees that the Jews ALSO should get to live in their homeland (which is all that 'Zionism' actually means)

The way you use it is closely akin to 'Tail Gunner Joe' talking about Communism. Even Hadassah did not escape your condemnation, simply for being a 'Zionist' organization - although you knew next to nothing of Hadassah's century of effort to build up the land and ALL the people within it.

 

[MHunterB]

Daniyel: welcome to the forum!

Since you're new, I want to warn you about the poster amity1844.

She is a lying anti Semitic propaganda spewing Palestinian shill.
She will constantly lie and lie and try to brainwash you with her distortion of history..

Toasty - we've discussed your disrespect for accuracy before. I am most disappointed in your gossiping about another poster to this poor newbie : ((


For Heaven's sake - quit whitewashing what the daft bint posts, and tell him the truth already!!!!!

 

[amity1844]

Never said all Jews are Z's. That is manifestly NOT the case.

See many of my earlier posts which feature LOTS of anti-Zionist Jews.

"Lots of" is still only some tens of thousands, out of 14 million. And you also grossly misrepresented those extremist fundamentalist 'Jews' as "Orthodox" - from which they had been ejected some three hundred years ago. You were corrected on that misrepresentation many times, but ignored it as well.

Each of those 'haredi' groups is almost like its own religion - just as SDA's and JW's will tell you that they are not 'Christians' OR that they are 'the faithful remnant', so it is with most of the haredim. And some of them are very like a cult - like the followers of Arnold Murray or Howard Camping.....

What about Ilan Pappe, Breaking the Silence, and the others?

 

[amity1844]

Yes, but they are all Zionist.

And I like the accuracy of the term.

Naaaah, you just like to use it to denigrate, dehumanize, delegitimate, and demonize about 95% of the Jewish People and anyone who agrees that the Jews ALSO should get to live in their homeland (which is all that 'Zionism' actually means)

If the homeland was in uninhabited territory, fine.

The way you use it is closely akin to 'Tail Gunner Joe' talking about Communism. Even Hadassah did not escape your condemnation, simply for being a 'Zionist' organization - although you knew next to nothing of Hadassah's century of effort to build up the land and ALL the people within it.

I don't remember saying anything negative about Hadassah except that it was Zionist. I do applaud their very unusual efforts for non-Jews, including even Palestinians. Lord knows that spirit is a rarity among Zionists. But they are still a Zionist organization, in league with the bad guys, supporting an entity that denies even basic human and civic rights to an entire nation. If they can see through their Zionism, I'll be all for them. But unfortunately in the last analysis they are just another Zionist organization and being comparatively compassionate toward individual Palestinians doesn't change their role in maintaining the specifically Jewish character of the state of Israel in contravention of the rights of another nation.

I like the term Zionist for reasons I have already set forth. I have negative things to say about much of what Israel has done historically, and much of what has been done in the name of Israel. I will NOT say negative things about Jews, and that would be wholly inappropriate, as Jews are not to blame for Israel's misdeeds. And I even resist saying negative things about Israelis, even though of course some are jerks and some aren't. So the term I am going to use is "Zionist." That is the term Zionists use for themselves and it is entirely appropriate in this context. I can't think of any other term that would be appropriate, unless you want to suggest one perhaps??

Now, if the Z-word is starting to feel uncomfortable in your ears, better ask yourself why.

 

[MHunterB]

Never said all Jews are Z's. That is manifestly NOT the case.

See many of my earlier posts which feature LOTS of anti-Zionist Jews.

"Lots of" is still only some tens of thousands, out of 14 million. And you also grossly misrepresented those extremist fundamentalist 'Jews' as "Orthodox" - from which they had been ejected some three hundred years ago. You were corrected on that misrepresentation many times, but ignored it as well.

Each of those 'haredi' groups is almost like its own religion - just as SDA's and JW's will tell you that they are not 'Christians' OR that they are 'the faithful remnant', so it is with most of the haredim. And some of them are very like a cult - like the followers of Arnold Murray or Howard Camping.....

What about Ilan Pappe, Breaking the Silence, and the others?

OK, so that's another 853 or so...... and concentrated at both extreme fringes of the political spectrum. They are NEVER going to be part of a government: it's rather a conflict of interests to run for office when your goal is to demolish the State itself.

They're just not politically significant, so why bother yapping about them at every turn? It's a waste of time.

 

[amity1844]

Sorry you're so delusional!

They are Israel's #1 headache right now, along with so many other anti-Zionist Israelis and Jews, and they are gaining in influence, not among Zionists of course, but among those who are trying to learn more about Israel and the Palestinians. Ilan Pappe's sleuthing through Israeli archives to tell the world what really happened in 1948 is worth more than anything else to the cause of peace.