Origin of life - the simplest form of life

[Newtonian]

aY

I

Them main reason I am interested in Amino acid synthesis is its relevance to the origin of life. There are also medical aspects and nutritional aspects of course.

Before going into detail in the required environments that favor each amino acid required for life, I should list the 20 amino acids in proteins - they are:

1. alanine - ala - A
2. arginine - arg - R
3. asparagine - asn - N
4. aspartic acid - asp - D
5. cysteine - cys - C
6. glutamine - gln - Q
7. glutamic acid - glu - E
8. glycine - gly - G
9. histidine - his - H
10. isoleucine - ile - I
11. leucine - leu - L
12. lysine - lys - K
13. methionine - met - M
14. phenylalanine - phe - F
15. proline - pro - P
16. serine - ser - S
17. threonine - thr - T
18. tryptophan - trp - W
19. tyrosine - tyr - Y
20. valine - val - V

I will post a little about each amino acid, including the chemical formulas, in subsequent posts. For this post I will simply mention that Glycine is the simplest amino acid and the easiest to synthesize.

Could you identify why the supernatural designer chemists chose those particular 20 proteins when they designed creation 6,000 years ago?

Some references please.

I did not say supernatural did I? Life was created on earth about 3.8 billion years ago. You think I am a young earth creationist? I am one Jehovah's Witnesses.

Change "Why" to "How" and you will be on topic on this thread. We believe God obeyed the laws he created - such as the statutes of the heavens as per Job 38:33 - which do have authority on the earth.

I assume you meant 20 amino acids - not 20 proteins. There are hundreds of proteins required for life, including the exact 3-d fit of enzymes and receptors.

Bottom line - how did/could an intelligent chemist synthesize the 20 Amino acids required for proteins which are required for life? Note that there are specific chemical reactions used by scientists to synthesize these amino acids - some of which prefer wet environment, others dry (even with condensing agents), acid vs. alkaline, hot vs. cold (the needed temperature for specific amino acid synthesis is often narrow & crucial- as is the environment needed). An example is Cytosine synthesis - more on that later - but feel free to post how you think Cytosine was synthesized at the moment of creation of life.

[I say moment because many of the required informational molecules required for life have short life spans - and the information within them is lost very rapidly - see the chemical reaction definition of death of a living cell.]

So... aside from the above, I'm not seeing any indication of how or why a supernatural chemist would need such seemingly complicated chemistry to supernaturally create life.

You ask a good question - how did/could an intelligent (supernatural -ed.) chemist synthesize the 20 Amino acids required for proteins which are required for life?

Why are 20 amino acids required for life when a supernatural designer could seemingly design creation using just 1 or 2.

You (and God) cannot have the information required for life with just 1 or 2 proteins. Can you document some reason for your belief on this?

It would be like writing the Encyclopedia Britannica with only 2 English letters.

Were you referring to binary codes as in computers? That would be more comparable to using just 4 atoms: C, N. H, O. However, other elements are also required (e.g. phosphorus).

DNA is written using far more complex "letters" btw. So is the information in informational proteins using 20 amino acid letters. Compare God's book in Psalms 139:16 (= DNA written in chemical language which determines the days each body part of the embyro is formed).

 

[Newtonian]

T

We know a lot about Chemistry.

We know a lot about Biology.

We don't have clue how Chemistry turns into Biology.

However, God does.

We do have clues - but you are correct that God knows how to create life (as in biology) using chemistry and us inferior humans (even genius scientists) do not know how to do it.

One purpose of this thread is how God did it. Specifically how God synthesized the amino acids required for proteins required for life.

Of course, life is far more complex than simply getting all the proteins required for life into the same place at the same time. In fact it is also more complex than producing informational proteins rather than statistical proteins. The proteins have to have the CORRECT information, and messenger molecules are required to read and translated that information and use it in some function required for life. Compare messenger RNA.

Threads about the gods don't belong in the Science and Technology forum.

This thread is about amino acid synthesis - do you have a problem posting on topic?

 

[Hollie]

aY

I

Them main reason I am interested in Amino acid synthesis is its relevance to the origin of life. There are also medical aspects and nutritional aspects of course.

Before going into detail in the required environments that favor each amino acid required for life, I should list the 20 amino acids in proteins - they are:

1. alanine - ala - A
2. arginine - arg - R
3. asparagine - asn - N
4. aspartic acid - asp - D
5. cysteine - cys - C
6. glutamine - gln - Q
7. glutamic acid - glu - E
8. glycine - gly - G
9. histidine - his - H
10. isoleucine - ile - I
11. leucine - leu - L
12. lysine - lys - K
13. methionine - met - M
14. phenylalanine - phe - F
15. proline - pro - P
16. serine - ser - S
17. threonine - thr - T
18. tryptophan - trp - W
19. tyrosine - tyr - Y
20. valine - val - V

I will post a little about each amino acid, including the chemical formulas, in subsequent posts. For this post I will simply mention that Glycine is the simplest amino acid and the easiest to synthesize.

Could you identify why the supernatural designer chemists chose those particular 20 proteins when they designed creation 6,000 years ago?

Some references please.

I did not say supernatural did I? Life was created on earth about 3.8 billion years ago. You think I am a young earth creationist? I am one Jehovah's Witnesses.

Change "Why" to "How" and you will be on topic on this thread. We believe God obeyed the laws he created - such as the statutes of the heavens as per Job 38:33 - which do have authority on the earth.

I assume you meant 20 amino acids - not 20 proteins. There are hundreds of proteins required for life, including the exact 3-d fit of enzymes and receptors.

Bottom line - how did/could an intelligent chemist synthesize the 20 Amino acids required for proteins which are required for life? Note that there are specific chemical reactions used by scientists to synthesize these amino acids - some of which prefer wet environment, others dry (even with condensing agents), acid vs. alkaline, hot vs. cold (the needed temperature for specific amino acid synthesis is often narrow & crucial- as is the environment needed). An example is Cytosine synthesis - more on that later - but feel free to post how you think Cytosine was synthesized at the moment of creation of life.

[I say moment because many of the required informational molecules required for life have short life spans - and the information within them is lost very rapidly - see the chemical reaction definition of death of a living cell.]

So... aside from the above, I'm not seeing any indication of how or why a supernatural chemist would need such seemingly complicated chemistry to supernaturally create life.

You ask a good question - how did/could an intelligent (supernatural -ed.) chemist synthesize the 20 Amino acids required for proteins which are required for life?

Why are 20 amino acids required for life when a supernatural designer could seemingly design creation using just 1 or 2.

You (and God) cannot have the information required for life with just 1 or 2 proteins. Can you document some reason for your belief on this?

It would be like writing the Encyclopedia Britannica with only 2 English letters.

Were you referring to binary codes as in computers? That would be more comparable to using just 4 atoms: C, N. H, O. However, other elements are also required (e.g. phosphorus).

DNA is written using far more complex "letters" btw. So is the information in informational proteins using 20 amino acid letters. Compare God's book in Psalms 139:16 (= DNA written in chemical language which determines the days each body part of the embyro is formed).

Can you support your claim that the gods cannot have the information required for life with just 1 or 2 proteins?

I would suggest you first support your claim to gods before you limit their ability at supernatural creation. Its a reasonable question: Why would the gods design creation with a requirement for 20 amino acids?

Can you document the gods requirements for this?

 

[Flash]

We know a lot about Chemistry.

We know a lot about Biology.

We don't have clue how Chemistry turns into Biology.

However, God does.

We do have clues - but you are correct that God knows how to create life (as in biology) using chemistry and us inferior humans (even genius scientists) do not know how to do it.

One purpose of this thread is how God did it. Specifically how God synthesized the amino acids required for proteins required for life.

Of course, life is far more complex than simply getting all the proteins required for life into the same place at the same time. In fact it is also more complex than producing informational proteins rather than statistical proteins. The proteins have to have the CORRECT information, and messenger molecules are required to read and translated that information and use it in some function required for life. Compare messenger RNA.

If it was easy turning Chemistry into Biology with a mix of chemicals and a little temperature control and a little water and maybe a jolt of energy or whatever then that would a science period lab at every Jr High school in the US.

The "clues" that you refer to are far short of answering the question. We have been doing research on this for many decades and have yet to create life.

We only know that life is unique to earth. We don't know how it was created. We are ignorant.

We may have been made in His image but we ain't God.

 

[Hollie]

T

We know a lot about Chemistry.

We know a lot about Biology.

We don't have clue how Chemistry turns into Biology.

However, God does.

We do have clues - but you are correct that God knows how to create life (as in biology) using chemistry and us inferior humans (even genius scientists) do not know how to do it.

One purpose of this thread is how God did it. Specifically how God synthesized the amino acids required for proteins required for life.

Of course, life is far more complex than simply getting all the proteins required for life into the same place at the same time. In fact it is also more complex than producing informational proteins rather than statistical proteins. The proteins have to have the CORRECT information, and messenger molecules are required to read and translated that information and use it in some function required for life. Compare messenger RNA.

Threads about the gods don't belong in the Science and Technology forum.

This thread is about amino acid synthesis - do you have a problem posting on topic?

I was responding to your statement that God knows how to create life. How do you know that?

 

[Silver Cat]

We know a lot about Chemistry.

You know nothing about Chemistry.

We know a lot about Biology.

You know even less about Biology.

We don't have clue how Chemistry turns into Biology.

You can start with reading Wikipedia about autocatalytic reactions.

Formose reaction - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Flash]

We know a lot about Chemistry.

You know nothing about Chemistry.

We know a lot about Biology.

You know even less about Biology.

We don't have clue how Chemistry turns into Biology.

You can start with reading Wikipedia about autocatalytic reactions.

Formose reaction - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

LOL!

You know nothing about life. Neither does anybody else.

If Chemistry can be turned into Biology just show me how it is done. Put your money where your mouth is.

 

[Silver Cat]

We know a lot about Chemistry.

You know nothing about Chemistry.

We know a lot about Biology.

You know even less about Biology.

We don't have clue how Chemistry turns into Biology.

You can start with reading Wikipedia about autocatalytic reactions.

Formose reaction - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

LOL!

You know nothing about life. Neither does anybody else.

If Chemistry can be turned into Biology just show me how it is done. Put your money where your mouth is.

Life is a complex system of autocatalytic chemical reactions. How much money are you ready to pay for your education?

 

[Newtonian]

Back on topic - amino acid synthesis would have been impossible by chance if Calcium (Ca), Potassium (K), and Sodium (Na) ions were in earth's primordial waters. Yet the over 64 million petagrams of Carbon in earth's carbonates deposited by the geologic carbon cycle requires these ions in those waters which combined with dissolved atmospheric CO2 (carbon dioxide) in ionic form as the carbonate ion (CO3) and the bicarbonate ion (HCO3) to form the carbonates in earth's crust. Some of the minerals containing carbonate include:
1. Calcium carbonate (CaCO3) is the primary composition of Limestone rock. Calcite is CaCO3.

Some other minerals with Calciium carbonate/Calcite besides limestone:

A complete list of carbonate minerals is here:

Carbonate Minerals

The more common carbonate minerals include:

(2-4) Marble, chalk, travertine.

Dolomitic limestone [CaMg(CO3)2] contains Magnesium (Mg) and is a sedimentary rock found hundreds of feet deep and therefore goes back very early in the depostion of earth's upper crust.

5. Zinc Carbonate - ZnCO3 = Smithsonite

6. Iron Carbonate - FeCO3 = Siderite

7. Magnesium Carbonate = MgCO3 = CMgO3 = Magnesite

8 Sodium Carbonate = Na2CO3. The mineral forms of Sodium carbonate are much more rare than CaCO3 - but all these forms are found in the Kota Peninsula of Russia.

9. Sodium bicarbonate = NaHCO3 = Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate = bicarbonate of Soda = Baking Soda= the mineral Nacholite.

10. Potassium carbonate = K2CO3 = Potash (in Potash ores and in wood ash).

Notice that Calcium carbonate is the most common carbonate in earth's sedimentary rock. Besides the fact that the Calcium ion reacts with compounds required for life and thus destroys chemical pathways to life - there are also 3 atoms of Oxygen for each atom of Calcium.

Obviously Oxygen was more common that Calcium - mostly from the CO3 ion from CO2 absorption from earth's primordial waters. This is one reason for believing early earth had much CO2.

The oxide minerals i earth's crust also prove Oxygen was present.

To be continued

 

[Newtonian]

We know a lot about Chemistry.

You know nothing about Chemistry.

We know a lot about Biology.

You know even less about Biology.

We don't have clue how Chemistry turns into Biology.

You can start with reading Wikipedia about autocatalytic reactions.

Formose reaction - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

LOL!

You know nothing about life. Neither does anybody else.

If Chemistry can be turned into Biology just show me how it is done. Put your money where your mouth is.

Life is a complex system of autocatalytic chemical reactions. How much money are you ready to pay for your education?

All seriousness aside - do you mean like catalytic converters in autos?

Seriously, see:

Autocatalysis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Can you be more specific as to which reaction results serve as catalysts for subsequent reaction results? I mean - can you give an example, preferably involving amino acids in view of thread topic.

Note that water reacts with many chemicals on early required steps towards polypeptides, starting with this simple reaction:

HCN (hydrogen cyanide) + H2O (water) yields formamide + water = formic acid.

This reaction shows why formic acid is the predominant (by proportion) chemical reaction product in Miller-Urey type experiments.

Please note also that the amino group in Amino acids reacts with the carbonyl group in sugars and aldehydes to form imine and thus also destroys possible chemical reaction pathways towards polypeptides (in proteins), sugars and nucleic acids.

Yes, I know the chemistry of life overcomes this by the use of informational molecules - very complex indeed!

 

[Newtonian]

aY

I

Them main reason I am interested in Amino acid synthesis is its relevance to the origin of life. There are also medical aspects and nutritional aspects of course.

Before going into detail in the required environments that favor each amino acid required for life, I should list the 20 amino acids in proteins - they are:

1. alanine - ala - A
2. arginine - arg - R
3. asparagine - asn - N
4. aspartic acid - asp - D
5. cysteine - cys - C
6. glutamine - gln - Q
7. glutamic acid - glu - E
8. glycine - gly - G
9. histidine - his - H
10. isoleucine - ile - I
11. leucine - leu - L
12. lysine - lys - K
13. methionine - met - M
14. phenylalanine - phe - F
15. proline - pro - P
16. serine - ser - S
17. threonine - thr - T
18. tryptophan - trp - W
19. tyrosine - tyr - Y
20. valine - val - V

I will post a little about each amino acid, including the chemical formulas, in subsequent posts. For this post I will simply mention that Glycine is the simplest amino acid and the easiest to synthesize.

Could you identify why the supernatural designer chemists chose those particular 20 proteins when they designed creation 6,000 years ago?

Some references please.

I did not say supernatural did I? Life was created on earth about 3.8 billion years ago. You think I am a young earth creationist? I am one Jehovah's Witnesses.

Change "Why" to "How" and you will be on topic on this thread. We believe God obeyed the laws he created - such as the statutes of the heavens as per Job 38:33 - which do have authority on the earth.

I assume you meant 20 amino acids - not 20 proteins. There are hundreds of proteins required for life, including the exact 3-d fit of enzymes and receptors.

Bottom line - how did/could an intelligent chemist synthesize the 20 Amino acids required for proteins which are required for life? Note that there are specific chemical reactions used by scientists to synthesize these amino acids - some of which prefer wet environment, others dry (even with condensing agents), acid vs. alkaline, hot vs. cold (the needed temperature for specific amino acid synthesis is often narrow & crucial- as is the environment needed). An example is Cytosine synthesis - more on that later - but feel free to post how you think Cytosine was synthesized at the moment of creation of life.

[I say moment because many of the required informational molecules required for life have short life spans - and the information within them is lost very rapidly - see the chemical reaction definition of death of a living cell.]

So... aside from the above, I'm not seeing any indication of how or why a supernatural chemist would need such seemingly complicated chemistry to supernaturally create life.

You ask a good question - how did/could an intelligent (supernatural -ed.) chemist synthesize the 20 Amino acids required for proteins which are required for life?

Why are 20 amino acids required for life when a supernatural designer could seemingly design creation using just 1 or 2.

You (and God) cannot have the information required for life with just 1 or 2 proteins. Can you document some reason for your belief on this?

It would be like writing the Encyclopedia Britannica with only 2 English letters.

Were you referring to binary codes as in computers? That would be more comparable to using just 4 atoms: C, N. H, O. However, other elements are also required (e.g. phosphorus).

DNA is written using far more complex "letters" btw. So is the information in informational proteins using 20 amino acid letters. Compare God's book in Psalms 139:16 (= DNA written in chemical language which determines the days each body part of the embyro is formed).

Can you support your claim that the gods cannot have the information required for life with just 1 or 2 proteins?

I would suggest you first support your claim to gods before you limit their ability at supernatural creation. Its a reasonable question: Why would the gods design creation with a requirement for 20 amino acids?

Can you document the gods requirements for this?

Can you document anything you post? And try reading my posts more carefully - you are not responding on thread topic.

 

[Newtonian]

T

We know a lot about Chemistry.

We know a lot about Biology.

We don't have clue how Chemistry turns into Biology.

However, God does.

We do have clues - but you are correct that God knows how to create life (as in biology) using chemistry and us inferior humans (even genius scientists) do not know how to do it.

One purpose of this thread is how God did it. Specifically how God synthesized the amino acids required for proteins required for life.

Of course, life is far more complex than simply getting all the proteins required for life into the same place at the same time. In fact it is also more complex than producing informational proteins rather than statistical proteins. The proteins have to have the CORRECT information, and messenger molecules are required to read and translated that information and use it in some function required for life. Compare messenger RNA.

Threads about the gods don't belong in the Science and Technology forum.

This thread is about amino acid synthesis - do you have a problem posting on topic?

I was responding to your statement that God knows how to create life. How do you know that?

I was not responding to you.

Note that usually I say intelligent chemist - I was responding to a poster who brought up God.

My posts document why an intelligent chemist is required to create life. You have consistently ignored the fact that different environments are required for synthesis of different amino acids:

Hot vs. cold; acid vs alkaline; wet vs. dry (even with condensing agents). You cannot have these varied environments in the same place at the same time without an intelligent chemist.

Can you post on topic?

 

[MarathonMike]

What actual scientific finding do you have to show life didn't arise from the combination of its constituent elements?

It's always difficult to prove a negative but I would say the proof is scientists can't make life arise from a combination of elements.

 

[Wuwei]

For starters, I will link to 2 of our brochures on this subject and invite you all to comment on any point therein - or any other point relevant to the origin of life:

Starting with our brochure entitled "Origin of Life - five questions worth asking: -

Origin of Life (lf) — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

The topic is amino acids? Really? I went to your first link and got this:
Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
A Watchtower brochure!!! When I read the first line of your brochure it said,
When you were a child, did you ever startle your parents by asking, “Where do babies come from?”

Once every couple of years these people come to my door to give me their brochure and attempt to proselytize me. I generally accept their brochure and politely tell them I'm not interested. Because of the virus they no longer can go door to door, so now they are invading the Science and Technology forum!!! In the guise of amino acids?

I wondered why you wanted to paste a bunch of arcane biochemistry and expect people to respond to it. BTW. My post is on topic because you brought it up in your OP.

Please keep the the Watchtower religion in the religious section, not the science section.

.

 

[Silver Cat]

We know a lot about Chemistry.

You know nothing about Chemistry.

We know a lot about Biology.

You know even less about Biology.

We don't have clue how Chemistry turns into Biology.

You can start with reading Wikipedia about autocatalytic reactions.

Formose reaction - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

LOL!

You know nothing about life. Neither does anybody else.

If Chemistry can be turned into Biology just show me how it is done. Put your money where your mouth is.

Life is a complex system of autocatalytic chemical reactions. How much money are you ready to pay for your education?

All seriousness aside - do you mean like catalytic converters in autos?

Seriously, see:

Autocatalysis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Can you be more specific as to which reaction results serve as catalysts for subsequent reaction results? I mean - can you give an example, preferably involving amino acids in view of thread topic.

Can you read the article?
What do you know about model of RNA-world?

RNA world - Wikipedia

 

[Silver Cat]

What actual scientific finding do you have to show life didn't arise from the combination of its constituent elements?

It's always difficult to prove a negative but I would say the proof is scientists can't make life arise from a combination of elements.

What about SARS-COV-2?

 

[Hollie]

T

We know a lot about Chemistry.

We know a lot about Biology.

We don't have clue how Chemistry turns into Biology.

However, God does.

We do have clues - but you are correct that God knows how to create life (as in biology) using chemistry and us inferior humans (even genius scientists) do not know how to do it.

One purpose of this thread is how God did it. Specifically how God synthesized the amino acids required for proteins required for life.

Of course, life is far more complex than simply getting all the proteins required for life into the same place at the same time. In fact it is also more complex than producing informational proteins rather than statistical proteins. The proteins have to have the CORRECT information, and messenger molecules are required to read and translated that information and use it in some function required for life. Compare messenger RNA.

Threads about the gods don't belong in the Science and Technology forum.

This thread is about amino acid synthesis - do you have a problem posting on topic?

I was responding to your statement that God knows how to create life. How do you know that?

I was not responding to you.

Note that usually I say intelligent chemist - I was responding to a poster who brought up God.

My posts document why an intelligent chemist is required to create life. You have consistently ignored the fact that different environments are required for synthesis of different amino acids:

Hot vs. cold; acid vs alkaline; wet vs. dry (even with condensing agents). You cannot have these varied environments in the same place at the same time without an intelligent chemist.

Can you post on topic?

Your first links were to the Watchtower Bible Society so when you refer to an intelligent chemist (and later refer to gods), it's a simpler matter to infer your suggestion of the gods as intelligent chemists.

I see nothing in your posts that documents an intelligent designer is required to create life. Abiogenesis as the natural process that started life presumes no designer is required.

 

[alang1216]

So, what do you all think about the evidence scientists have discovered? Feel free to post links - I love doing research!

My personal opinion is that life occurred spontaneously in conditions very different from what we see today. There are plenty of theories that use only natural forces that one requiring supernatural intervention is superfluous. Since we'll probably never know for sure what the conditions were and we'll never get a few billion years to run the experiment, we'll never know exactly what happened.

 

[alang1216]

You (and God) cannot have the information required for life with just 1 or 2 proteins. Can you document some reason for your belief on this?

All of today's computers and networks are based solely on 1s and 0s. We are moving to quantum computers but those binary ones can store plenty of information.

 

[esalla]

What actual scientific finding do you have to show life didn't arise from the combination of its constituent elements?

Because life is not a combination of elements. What life consist of are elements and molecules that are put in their place by a molecular code called DNA. Since DNA has to orient the elements it must be in place first and since DNA even for a simple organism consist of several thousand genes or lines of code it is mathematically and statistically impossible for this to happen by chance. Windows 10 writing itself in Darwins pond would happen first