On That End Of Life Clause

[Luissa]

Death panels? Seems the left is more wrapped up with it than the right. Palin siad it and the left has not let go of it. If they did, it woulds have died, Instead, they took out anything that implies it...so yes...THANK YOU LEFT for not letting it go.

Grandma? No one is going to pull the plug. Obama is correct. The question is, will it be deemed more appropriate to simply not hook her up to the machine?

And what about emergency situations...such as a financial collapse? Government bankrupcy? No..not far fetched...look at California....look at the deficit we have thanks to the last two admins...look at our national debt...

So pleaase tell me.....what will happen IF there is the need for rationing?

What the fuck do you think happens right now when insurance cos call things experimental and dont cover them for people who have paid the cos thousands for decades?


People are dumped from the contracts for getting sick so the insure cos can have 400% profit.

Now go look at the other countries who have the best healthcare in the world ......what kind do they have?

Do not get me wrong. We DO need reform. That is not the issue.

We have the BEST healthcare in the world but yes, by far not the best system.

So why not simply open state lines to allow pure competition that ALWAYS results in lower prices....set regulations that forbid the dropping of anyone based on health issues that arise..and eliminate the "pre-exisitng condition" crap....and as for those that lose their jobs, COBRA is working fine....but the cost will be lower once the overall industry lowers the prices of premiums when puyre competiton comes into play.

Why a "public option"? What will it do but cost Americans over a trillion dollars?

we do not have the best health care in the world, we are ranked 37th actually. France has the number one health care in the world with private and public health care.

 

[elvis]

What the fuck do you think happens right now when insurance cos call things experimental and dont cover them for people who have paid the cos thousands for decades?


People are dumped from the contracts for getting sick so the insure cos can have 400% profit.

Now go look at the other countries who have the best healthcare in the world ......what kind do they have?

Do not get me wrong. We DO need reform. That is not the issue.

We have the BEST healthcare in the world but yes, by far not the best system.

So why not simply open state lines to allow pure competition that ALWAYS results in lower prices....set regulations that forbid the dropping of anyone based on health issues that arise..and eliminate the "pre-exisitng condition" crap....and as for those that lose their jobs, COBRA is working fine....but the cost will be lower once the overall industry lowers the prices of premiums when puyre competiton comes into play.

Why a "public option"? What will it do but cost Americans over a trillion dollars?

we do not have the best health care in the world, we are ranked 37th actually. France has the number one health care in the world with private and public health care.

depends on what you mean by best care.

 

[Oldandtired]

I said page 800 or somewhere around there.

And perhaps it is not the word exempt....but the question came up at our townhall meeting and our rep who supports the bill said that the only reason the clasue is in there is because congress' plan is identical to the public plan so there is no reason to allow congress members access to it.

And yes, we threw a fit over that answer...and yes...the fit was televised on our local news...but not the question and not the answer....just the lot of us screaming "answer the question"......

 

[Truthmatters]

refusing facts again?

gee imagine our suprize

 

[elvis]

refusing facts again?

gee imagine our suprize

who is entailed in "our"? you and your cat?

 

[Oldandtired]

Do not get me wrong. We DO need reform. That is not the issue.

We have the BEST healthcare in the world but yes, by far not the best system.

So why not simply open state lines to allow pure competition that ALWAYS results in lower prices....set regulations that forbid the dropping of anyone based on health issues that arise..and eliminate the "pre-exisitng condition" crap....and as for those that lose their jobs, COBRA is working fine....but the cost will be lower once the overall industry lowers the prices of premiums when puyre competiton comes into play.

Why a "public option"? What will it do but cost Americans over a trillion dollars?

we do not have the best health care in the world, we are ranked 37th actually. France has the number one health care in the world with private and public health care.

depends on what you mean by best care.

We have the best healthcare in the world.....we do NOT implement it as well as we could and that is why reform is necessary.....but as for our doctors and nurses...they are as well educated and trained as any in the world....if not better.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

What the fuck do you think happens right now when insurance cos call things experimental and dont cover them for people who have paid the cos thousands for decades?


People are dumped from the contracts for getting sick so the insure cos can have 400% profit.

Now go look at the other countries who have the best healthcare in the world ......what kind do they have?

Do not get me wrong. We DO need reform. That is not the issue.

We have the BEST healthcare in the world but yes, by far not the best system.

So why not simply open state lines to allow pure competition that ALWAYS results in lower prices....set regulations that forbid the dropping of anyone based on health issues that arise..and eliminate the "pre-exisitng condition" crap....and as for those that lose their jobs, COBRA is working fine....but the cost will be lower once the overall industry lowers the prices of premiums when puyre competiton comes into play.

Why a "public option"? What will it do but cost Americans over a trillion dollars?

No one ever mentions how the insurance companies are not allowed to compete across state lines, which keeps prices artificially inflated. I'd like to see that addressed by our wonderful politicians.

The same can be said for tort reform. Nothing has been said about that part of the equation, which would indeed cut medical cost also.

 

[elvis]

we do not have the best health care in the world, we are ranked 37th actually. France has the number one health care in the world with private and public health care.

depends on what you mean by best care.

We have the best healthcare in the world.....we do NOT implement it as well as we could and that is why reform is necessary.....but as for our doctors and nurses...they are as well educated and trained as any in the world....if not better.

and that is exactly the situation.

 

[Zoom-boing]

I'm confused on the whole 'end-of-life' stuff in the bill(s).

If all that wording was just to make sure that end-of-life counseling was paid for, why did they completely remove the provision? Why didn't they just reword it in simple, non-ambiguous language?

Because the language was not "ambiguous" to begin with.

LimpBoy found this out when he foolishly decided to read the bill for the first time, and over the air no less. He had to stop before he could finish the second sentence and then "paraphrase" his own lie.

The Bottom Line on "Death Panels"
August 17, 2009
RUSH: And I've got section 1233 here. We had the call from the guy in Tulsa who said you're misrepresenting and maligning the death panel business. Section 1233, House bill, "Advanced Care Planning," excerpts, pages 424 to 430. I've got some of this stuff highlighted. Here's section 4E, an explanation... Well, it's not section 4E. It's line four: "An explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title. A program for orders for life sustaining treatment for estates described in this clause is a program that ensures such orders are..."

LimpBoy stops reading the bill here and then "paraphrases" what he claims comes next.

RUSH: It goes on and on. When you go through this, it sure sounds like a government panel is going to be deciding a lot of stuff -- and it will! There's no way around this.

Here's what ACTUALLY came after LimpBoy stopped reading the bill for the first time. GEE no "government" (DEATH) panel.

"A program for orders for life sustaining treatment for a States described in this clause is a program that— ensures such orders are standardized and uniquely identifiable throughout the State; distributes or makes accessible such orders to physicians and other health professionals that (acting within the scope of the professional’s authority under State law) may sign orders for life sustaining treatment; provides training for health care professionals across the continuum of care about the goals and use of orders for life sustaining treatment"

And here the bill defines his fictitious "government" (DEATH) panel.

"A practitioner described in this paragraph is—(A) a physician (as defined in subsection 7; and (B) a nurse practitioner or physician’s assistant who has the authority under State law to sign orders for life sustaining treatments."

So the BILL in Section 1233 pages 424 to 430 allows for the reimbursement of the INDIVIDUAL when he VOLUNTARILY gives HIS ORDERS for LIFE SUSTAINING treatments to the PRACTITIONER that the State is required to recognize and OBEY.

Of course it was ambiguous. If it wasn't, there wouldn't have been any hoohaa over it. And if it wasn't, then why did they cave and take it out? Why didn't they simplify the language but keep the provision?

Who the fuck cares what Rush thinks.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Hello?!?!?

Text of H.R.3200 as Introduced in House: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - U.S. Congress - OpenCongress

DUH!!!!!!!!

 

[Oldandtired]

How is allowing the current companies to compete accrossed state lines going to end there ability to drop who the fuck they want to drop when they start costing the insurance company to much?

Dont you guys realize they will collude with each other to keep the prices high?

Sure...that makes sense. Hundreds of insurance companies and NOT ONE will deviate form such collussion in an attempt to corner the market.

As for dropping people...THAT is what government regulation is about.

Where were you schooled? Do you know anything about how pure competition works?

Your naivety is pathetic.

 

[rdean]

The idea of being hooked up to machines, in pain, and unable to die is terrifying.

You know that a Republican Lt. Col. told the family of Pat Tillman that if they weren't athiests, they wouldn't feel so bad about him being dead.

That's why I'm surprised now that Republicans are so afraid to die. Won't they being going to "heaven"? They can see their magical God.

 

[elvis]

How is allowing the current companies to compete accrossed state lines going to end there ability to drop who the fuck they want to drop when they start costing the insurance company to much?

Dont you guys realize they will collude with each other to keep the prices high?

Sure...that makes sense. Hundreds of insurance companies and NOT ONE will deviate form such collussion in an attempt to corner the market.

As for dropping people...THAT is what government regulation is about.

Where were you schooled? Do you know anything about how pure competition works?

Your naivety is pathetic.

She doesn't know much about anything.

 

[Zoom-boing]

facts dont much matter to those who oppose this bill.

The profits they will lose if there is a public option are all that matter to them.

It still amazes me they fools they can gather to do their bidding.

What do you think of the IRS clause, you know, sec 401? You don't think that will create some problems for you?

Truth matters did not read the bill...so 401 means squat to him.

And what about congress' little clause that exempts thewm from all provsions set forth in the bill.....why is that in there?

Oh yeah....as Obama said for his sheep to believe..."that is the point! The public option is as good as what congress has>".....really? SO I again ask....why are they exempt from having to opt in then?

In regards to the exemption, I saw this today. 'Bout time somebody grew a pair.

But Rep. Dan Boren, a fiscally conservative Democrat, reminded residents several times that he opposes any law that would lead to a government-run health care system. He also pledged Tuesday that if a health care bill passes, he would take that plan, even if the plan for federal lawmakers might be better.

Democratic Rep. Boren Vows to Swap Federal Coverage for New Health Care Plan - Political News - FOXNews.com

 

[Luissa]

Do not get me wrong. We DO need reform. That is not the issue.

We have the BEST healthcare in the world but yes, by far not the best system.

So why not simply open state lines to allow pure competition that ALWAYS results in lower prices....set regulations that forbid the dropping of anyone based on health issues that arise..and eliminate the "pre-exisitng condition" crap....and as for those that lose their jobs, COBRA is working fine....but the cost will be lower once the overall industry lowers the prices of premiums when puyre competiton comes into play.

Why a "public option"? What will it do but cost Americans over a trillion dollars?

we do not have the best health care in the world, we are ranked 37th actually. France has the number one health care in the world with private and public health care.

depends on what you mean by best care.

I mean better care in all areas!
The World Health Organization considers France's health care system to be the best in the world whereas the U.S. ranks 37th. The French enjoy universal coverage while 47 million Americans go without any health coverage, a number that is expected to rise to 56 million by 2013. Many more Americans are so underinsured that their access to medical care is severely restricted. France’s health indicators are better in virtually every category; from infant mortality to life expectancy, the United States lags well behind. France has more physicians per one thousand residents than the United States (3.4 versus

2.4) and the French see them more often—6.7 times per year on average versus the American average of 3.9 times per year. Acute care in France is dominated by public and academic hospital medical centers. Yet the French may also choose services from the largest private hospital sector in Europe, accounting for 36 percent of all beds. Together France's public hospitals and private cliniques provide the country with 26 percent more acute care beds per each thousand residents than the United States (3.8 versus 2.8). Moreover, the cost of U.S health care is nearly 50 percent more per capita, and U.S. prices are rising even faster than those in France. French health expenditures were recently at 10.4 percent of GDP, while U.S. health care spending, recently at 15.2 percent, is projected to reach 20 percent by 2016. Despite these contrasting statistics, U.S. and French health care share much in common.


Shared Ideals and Divergent Systems

Patients in both countries hold very similar ideals, which are quite different from those of patients in Great Britain or Canada. Both France and the United States prize patient choice of physician; they both accept doctors’ century-old argument about the salutary

effects of fee-for-service medicine on the doctor-patient relationship. They both prize private-practice physicians, and they both reject that medical care should in any way be “rationed.” Indeed, although Sécurité sociale appears a promising candidate to adopt managed care techniques, there exists a powerful cultural counterforce that is rooted in France’s historical embrace of individualism. . . .


Policy Briefs | French American Foundation

I especially like the fact they have more doctors per 1,000 people, which probably means they don't have the long waits like the right tries to say they do.

 

[Oldandtired]

depends on what you mean by best care.

We have the best healthcare in the world.....we do NOT implement it as well as we could and that is why reform is necessary.....but as for our doctors and nurses...they are as well educated and trained as any in the world....if not better.

and that is exactly the situation.

And the exact reason why most americans are for reform.

Create pure competition...that will ALWAYS lower the prices.

Eliminate an insurers right to drop someone based on claim size.\

Eliminate the need to disclose pre-exisiting conditions....assuming you were insured prior to opting for a new plan....

It is not too difficult to make it cheaper and fairer.

 

[elvis]

We have the best healthcare in the world.....we do NOT implement it as well as we could and that is why reform is necessary.....but as for our doctors and nurses...they are as well educated and trained as any in the world....if not better.

and that is exactly the situation.

And the exact reason why most americans are for reform.

Create pure competition...that will ALWAYS lower the prices.

Eliminate an insurers right to drop someone based on claim size.\

Eliminate the need to disclose pre-exisiting conditions....assuming you were insured prior to opting for a new plan....

It is not too difficult to make it cheaper and fairer.

but they'd rather socialize.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

The idea of being hooked up to machines, in pain, and unable to die is terrifying.

You know that a Republican Lt. Col. told the family of Pat Tillman that if they weren't athiests, they wouldn't feel so bad about him being dead.

That's why I'm surprised now that Republicans are so afraid to die. Won't they being going to "heaven"? They can see their magical God.

Ah but see unplugging the machines is not Assisted Suicide, murder, or anything else. Its just letting nature do what nature does. IMO.

As far as your second 2 sentances....well...i dunno what you're getting at there but they dont make much sense to me in the thread.

 

[edthecynic]

I'm confused on the whole 'end-of-life' stuff in the bill(s).

If all that wording was just to make sure that end-of-life counseling was paid for, why did they completely remove the provision? Why didn't they just reword it in simple, non-ambiguous language?

Because the language was not "ambiguous" to begin with.

LimpBoy found this out when he foolishly decided to read the bill for the first time, and over the air no less. He had to stop before he could finish the second sentence and then "paraphrase" his own lie.

The Bottom Line on "Death Panels"
August 17, 2009
RUSH: And I've got section 1233 here. We had the call from the guy in Tulsa who said you're misrepresenting and maligning the death panel business. Section 1233, House bill, "Advanced Care Planning," excerpts, pages 424 to 430. I've got some of this stuff highlighted. Here's section 4E, an explanation... Well, it's not section 4E. It's line four: "An explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title. A program for orders for life sustaining treatment for estates described in this clause is a program that ensures such orders are..."

LimpBoy stops reading the bill here and then "paraphrases" what he claims comes next.

RUSH: It goes on and on. When you go through this, it sure sounds like a government panel is going to be deciding a lot of stuff -- and it will! There's no way around this.

Here's what ACTUALLY came after LimpBoy stopped reading the bill for the first time. GEE no "government" (DEATH) panel.

"A program for orders for life sustaining treatment for a States described in this clause is a program that— ensures such orders are standardized and uniquely identifiable throughout the State; distributes or makes accessible such orders to physicians and other health professionals that (acting within the scope of the professional’s authority under State law) may sign orders for life sustaining treatment; provides training for health care professionals across the continuum of care about the goals and use of orders for life sustaining treatment"

And here the bill defines his fictitious "government" (DEATH) panel.

"A practitioner described in this paragraph is—(A) a physician (as defined in subsection 7; and (B) a nurse practitioner or physician’s assistant who has the authority under State law to sign orders for life sustaining treatments."

So the BILL in Section 1233 pages 424 to 430 allows for the reimbursement of the INDIVIDUAL when he VOLUNTARILY gives HIS ORDERS for LIFE SUSTAINING treatments to the PRACTITIONER that the State is required to recognize and OBEY.

Of course it was ambiguous. If it wasn't, there wouldn't have been any hoohaa over it. And if it wasn't, then why did they cave and take it out? Why didn't they simplify the language but keep the provision?

Who the fuck cares what Rush thinks.

There is nothing ambiguous in what I posted directly from the bill or you would have highlighted the ambiguity.

And it was dropped because the GOP smear machine is just too good at manipulating mindless drones like you.

 

[Oldandtired]

The idea of being hooked up to machines, in pain, and unable to die is terrifying.

You know that a Republican Lt. Col. told the family of Pat Tillman that if they weren't athiests, they wouldn't feel so bad about him being dead.

That's why I'm surprised now that Republicans are so afraid to die. Won't they being going to "heaven"? They can see their magical God.

Wow...this forum is filled with a bunch of empty headed, naive talking poiints whores.

And what exactly makes a Lt. Col. a republican?

Oh yeah...the Daily Kos must have given him that label.