North Korea Attacks!

[PaulS1950]

Since the North Koreans put a satellite into orbit last month it would not be beyond expectations that they could put a nuclear device into orbit. There are no surface to air missiles that can reach that high. All the North Koreans would have to do is wait for the orbit to go over their target and detonate it in space - causing a massive EMP. It could take decades to recover from such an attack as all power generating stations, sub-stations, and transformers in use at the time would be toast. In addition to that all electronics would be fried whether they were in use or not. No radio, internet, telephone, lights or power would be available to industry or citizenry.

 

[Oldguy]

"Forced"? No.

"Forced?" Yes.

If he had to do it again, considering what is going on now, I wonder if Truman would have let MacArthur go on north. And also use nukes.

Looks like a missile launch tomorrow, headlines here are saying. If war comes, I bet a lot of people will wish Truman hadn't got cold feet. Never, NEVER accept an Armistice. If we didn't learn that from the 20th century, which had two disastrous armistices, we didn't learn much.

MacArthur was allowed to go on north, all the way to the Yalu River, which is the border between North Korea and China. And, THAT is what precipitated the Chinese intervention.

 

[Oldguy]

"Forced"? No.

"Forced?" Yes.

Only if you mean by politicians back in DC.

No. The Chinese fought UN forces to a standstill which lasted nearly 3 years and resulted in the cease fire which ended the war pretty much where it started.

 

[Unkotare]

"Forced?" Yes.

Only if you mean by politicians back in DC.

No. The Chinese fought UN forces to a standstill which lasted nearly 3 years and resulted in the cease fire which ended the war pretty much where it started.

Had the politicians not "forced" American forces to stop rather than pushing into China, had they had the green light to use the atomic bomb, there would have been a very different outcome.

 

[Circe]

MacArthur was allowed to go on north, all the way to the Yalu River, which is the border between North Korea and China. And, THAT is what precipitated the Chinese intervention.

Thanks for the intel. I was hung up on the 38th Parallel, I guess. My knowledge of the Korean War is very shaky. If we actually do go to war, I'll read more about it. It was an interesting war for a lot of reasons.

 

[Indofred]

Since the North Koreans put a satellite into orbit last month it would not be beyond expectations that they could put a nuclear device into orbit. There are no surface to air missiles that can reach that high. All the North Koreans would have to do is wait for the orbit to go over their target and detonate it in space - causing a massive EMP. It could take decades to recover from such an attack as all power generating stations, sub-stations, and transformers in use at the time would be toast. In addition to that all electronics would be fried whether they were in use or not. No radio, internet, telephone, lights or power would be available to industry or citizenry.

I understand the pope is to start using a unicorn as a 'green' method of transport.

Well, it's about as likely as that crap.

 

[Indofred]

You were kicked out of Vietnam...

"Kicked out"? No.

Perhaps you can explain how you weren't kicked out.
The American invasion of Vietnam was a total defeat.
You lost, you got your arses handed to you and loads of American were killed for absolutely nothing.

 

[Indofred]

You lost thousands of troops in Iraq for absolutely no gain, after starting an illegal war based on lies...

Not "illegal," not "lies," and accomplished the stated goals.

Please show me the evidence of WMD.
Your government lied.

 

[Indofred]

Afghanistan is yet another serious defeat...

Overthrew the Taliban as we intended to. Have killed loads of terrorists since as we intended to.



Nothing on that BS list holds up as a "defeat."

And you're about to leave with the Taliban stronger than the American backed Afghan government forces.
The Taliban will be back in control within a couple of years.
How many people died for nothing?

 

[Indofred]

Which one of those did we "lose"?

You were forced to a standstill in Korea..

"Forced"? No.

Forced, yes.
The Chinese didn't want you that close to their border so they backed NK and forced to to a standstill.

 

[Unkotare]

You were kicked out of Vietnam...

"Kicked out"? No.

Perhaps you can explain how you weren't kicked out.
The American invasion of Vietnam was a total defeat.
You lost, you got your arses handed to you and loads of American were killed for absolutely nothing.

"For absolutely nothing" is your subjective view and nothing more. We never lost one major battle there. We left because of political/social reasons, not military. If you call that a "loss" I'll give you that, but "arses handed to you" is patently untrue. I understand your personal bitterness and feelings of inferiority, but it doesn't excuse ignorance.

 

[Circe]

"Forced"? No.

Forced, yes.
The Chinese didn't want you that close to their border so they backed NK and forced to to a standstill.

Ummmmmmmmmm............that's not exactly the case. It was a real choicepoint at the time. MacArthur wanted Truman to use nukes to win, and the decision was made not to do so.

Recent history would be very different if Truman had done so; China our implacable enemy, nukes set free among all countries of the world, perhaps. But it wasn't a cost-free decision: the Armistice has been a real disaster and the splitting of Korea into a rich and a poor Korea has been awful.

It is not clear to me now whether Truman was right. If there is a huge war, I am going to be even more doubtful.

One thing I am sure of after the Korean Armistice and the 1918 WWI armistice that led directly into WWII: never, never, never settle for an Armistice. The aggressive power ALWAYS simply regroups and then tries again.

 

[FA_Q2]

Any attack on South Korea by North Korea should result in Pyongyang vanishing in a nuclear fireball.

If you bomb in the summer, China, Japan and Russia are going to be less than pleased but, if you bomb in the winter, you fuck yourselves.

Any other insane ideas?

Tell the Chinese to curb their mad dog. Don't care what they do or how they do it, but deal with him permanently!

The use of nukes (or chemical warfare) is totally unnecessary and would be a terrible idea. There is no reason to stoop to that position when we have conventional warheads that could be used to essentially level the entire country if we wanted to. They have a LOT of crap but it is still crap. They can’t even detect our stealth aircraft, we could bomb with impunity and face virtually zero resistance in the air. The rest, we should leave to the south Koreans, they would fight the ground war as we are used to performing in this manner – we control the battlefield and someone else takes most of the risk/casualties.

 

[Indofred]

My last post brings me to my next.
If American forces invaded NK and looked like they were going to win, China would be pretty sure to re-enter the conflict and Russia may well join in.
Neither country want America on their borders and that means you may well find yourselves on the receiving end of something you won't like.

Most U.S. troops ?would die? in N. Korean onslaught

A reasonable chance of up to 28,000 dead Americans in the first day or so.
As it say, better than average chance the US would soon down all the Korean aircraft and AA but, if America went into the country, China would probably step in.
That's always assuming NK didn't deploy nukes.

Now, consider this.
If America invaded NK, that makes the US mainland a valid target of war.
If a bomb or few killed dozens in New York, that would be a legal attack by a defending force, not an act of terrorism.

If you start a war, sooner or later, someone will bring it home to you and kill you on American soil.
There may well be North Korean military in major American cities, ready to strike at an invader on his home ground.
You use an aircraft, they use a truck.
It wouldn't be that hard to get a truck mounted missile system into the US without you knowing about it.
Look at how much cocaine gets in.
Say, "bye bye" to the white house.

 

[Indofred]

"Kicked out"? No.

Perhaps you can explain how you weren't kicked out.
The American invasion of Vietnam was a total defeat.
You lost, you got your arses handed to you and loads of American were killed for absolutely nothing.

"For absolutely nothing" is your subjective view and nothing more. We never lost one major battle there. We left because of political/social reasons, not military. If you call that a "loss" I'll give you that, but "arses handed to you" is patently untrue. I understand your personal bitterness and feelings of inferiority, but it doesn't excuse ignorance.

Tell me, how did you do in the battle for Saigon?

 

[Circe]

My last post brings me to my next.
If American forces invaded NK and looked like they were going to win, China would be pretty sure to re-enter the conflict and Russia may well join in.
Neither country want America on their borders and that means you may well find yourselves on the receiving end of something you won't like.

Most U.S. troops ?would die? in N. Korean onslaught

A reasonable chance of up to 28,000 dead Americans in the first day or so.
As it say, better than average chance the US would soon down all the Korean aircraft and AA but, if America went into the country, China would probably step in.
That's always assuming NK didn't deploy nukes.

Now, consider this.
If America invaded NK, that makes the US mainland a valid target of war.
If a bomb or few killed dozens in New York, that would be a legal attack by a defending force, not an act of terrorism.

If you start a war, sooner or later, someone will bring it home to you and kill you on American soil.
There may well be North Korean military in major American cities, ready to strike at an invader on his home ground.
You use an aircraft, they use a truck.
It wouldn't be that hard to get a truck mounted missile system into the US without you knowing about it.
Look at how much cocaine gets in.
Say, "bye bye" to the white house.

Well, hope on, hope ever. I see you are on the enemy side, but we have a pretty good record of holding our own if there's a real war.

You make a good point that sooner or later someone will attack us on our homeland. Or at least, it's a point I've been posting, too. We forget that because it hasn't happened since 1814. That was the last time we had to say "bye bye" to the White House, when the British burned it. There was bin Laden!! He was just a non-state actor. But still, it warned us of possibilities.

As for your idea about North Korean invaders here, you should know that Red Dawn was not a newsreel, it was just for entertainment!

As for the "tripwire troops," yes, you may be right. I don't like it, but that was their function under the treaty, to die and make the rest of us mad. Whether we'll get mad at North Korea or our own government for putting them in an indefensible position, I wonder.

Rooting for America to be defeated in a real war hasn't worked for two centuries, so I'd say that's not where the smart money goes. Those little invasion social work wars we've been trying on since the '60s don't count. And remember, while Afghanistan was of course not worth any REAL effort, we did keep on and keep on till we got bin Laden found and killed.

People always think they can back us off and we'll stop and give up ---- this surprises me, because we never, never have, once attacked. It's foolish for a country or even a non-state actor like Islamists to attack us, because then we turn into the Terminator.

 

[Oldguy]

"Forced"? No.

Forced, yes.
The Chinese didn't want you that close to their border so they backed NK and forced to to a standstill.

Ummmmmmmmmm............that's not exactly the case. It was a real choicepoint at the time. MacArthur wanted Truman to use nukes to win, and the decision was made not to do so.

Recent history would be very different if Truman had done so; China our implacable enemy, nukes set free among all countries of the world, perhaps. But it wasn't a cost-free decision: the Armistice has been a real disaster and the splitting of Korea into a rich and a poor Korea has been awful.

It is not clear to me now whether Truman was right. If there is a huge war, I am going to be even more doubtful.

One thing I am sure of after the Korean Armistice and the 1918 WWI armistice that led directly into WWII: never, never, never settle for an Armistice. The aggressive power ALWAYS simply regroups and then tries again.

It's hard to fault Truman for not being willing to kick off another major conflict, and possibly one using nuclear weapons, when the world had just gone through the most terrible war in human history a mere 5 years before. Most of the rest of the world was still in ruins in 1950 and nobody had much stomach for starting it all over again.

 

[Indofred]

Well, hope on, hope ever. I see you are on the enemy side,

As for your idea about North Korean invaders here, you should know that Red Dawn was not a newsreel, it was just for entertainment!
.

Where did I say I was on North Korea's side.
You invented it, ie - lied.
I simply pointed out, America is the invading army and NK forces may well be ready for a strike on your home land if you attack theirs.

As for "red dawn", I assume it's a film but I've never seen it.

As for North Korean troops in the US, better than average chance as I'm pretty sure America has spies and so on over there.

As for an attack on America, I wouldn't like to see it because so many would die but, in the medium term, in may well be a good thing if a war was brought onto your doorstep.
Seeing your own children killed in a war may make you realise what a bunch of murderers your military are.

Like to admit it or not, American troops, CIA drone strikes/bombings and support for evil governments has killed thousands of kids in its wars since 1945 but you carry on because war is something on TV.

 

[Indofred]

Just while I'm at it.
Lies and misinformation are out there, pushed by people who want war.

BBC News - South Korea blames North for bank and TV cyber-attacks

Investigators in Seoul reported their initial findings suggested North Korea's military-run Reconnaissance General Bureau had been responsible.

A spokesman announced that 30 out of 76 programs recovered from affected computers were the same as those used in previous strikes.

In addition he said that 22 of the 49 internet protocol (IP) addresses involved in the incidents matched those used in attacks blamed on the North over the past five years.

What naughty communists.

South Korea: Chinese address source of attack

BEIJING — A cyberattack that caused computer networks at South Korean banks and television networks to crash Wednesday afternoon originated with a Chinese Internet address, South Korea's telecom regulator said Thursday.

The state-run Korea Communications Commission said its initial analysis found that a Chinese address created the malicious code in the server of one of the banks, Nonghyup, where computers crashed

BBC News - South Korea says China hack link a 'mistake'

Officials in South Korea say they incorrectly linked a Chinese IP address to a cyber-attack earlier this week.

On Thursday, the Korean Communications Commission said it had traced the attack to an internet address in China, although the identity of those behind the attack could not be confirmed. But it said further investigation showed the malware came from a local computer in one of the affected banks.

In other words, anyone could have done it but they want to blame North Korea.

 

[Circe]

It's hard to fault Truman for not being willing to kick off another major conflict, and possibly one using nuclear weapons, when the world had just gone through the most terrible war in human history a mere 5 years before. Most of the rest of the world was still in ruins in 1950 and nobody had much stomach for starting it all over again.

True. Well! I could do "what-ifs," but we've got the reality we've got, and there were a number of pay-offs from that decision.