Myths, Hypotheses and Facts Concerning the Origin of Peoples

[Roudy]

I'm not using them to justify anything - I'm talking about the Palestinians - Jews and non-Jews.

You are proving that you're not informed enough about this topic and you are making up stuff to fit your bias and prejudices. Some of your claims are so outlandish it's laughable. How many times do you want to loose an argument in a single thread? LOL

I'm not making up anything. I provided sources. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong but genetic studies are not wrong and they show ancient connections among those peoples currently living there regardless of what they call themselves.

And, again - what is the point of your OP? To marginalize the Palestinians? To "prove" they have no right to any of that area? What exactly? Who cares what they are - they are people and they too have rights.

You provide sources that fit your insane idea of the history of the region and it's peoples, most of which have been debunked, at best. The reason you provide these types of sources is because you are not informed or familiar enough about the history of the region, so you pounce on anything that you can find, not knowing how ridiculous the assertions are. I don't think you'll find too many Palestinian Arabs that claim "we are the same as the Jews". Ha ha ha.

The point of my OP is, for the 100th time, these are noteworthy Arabs who were of prominence and their comments regarding "Palestinians". It's not my fault you feel their comments marginalize the Palestinians, they are of Arabs talking about other Arabs. Take it up with them. You can't discredit or disregard the truth just because it's not in line with your false ideas.

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel".
- Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council -

 

[MHunterB]

The term "Jews" predates the terms.

Frankly neither Jews nor Palestinians can trace their lineage back that far - it's mythology.

No, in the case of the Jews, its archaeology.

Much of ancient archaeology is guesswork - it's not by any means definitive that the people existing today can trace their lineage to the people that existed then. Really - I'd like to see that family tree if you have it.

It's EDUCATED 'guesswork', with awareness of facts well-established by decades of field and lab research, supported by careful statistical study. It's also supported by 'hard science', published and peer-reviewed. If it were the 'guesswork' you're presuming to declare it - there'd be no need for a full college curriculum through PhD programs and postdoc seminars.

 

[MHunterB]

Originally posted by Coyotes
They are there and they have been there as long as the Jews

Palestinian Jews are probably rolling in their graves right now...

You are using them to somehow justify the mass immigration of the Ashkenazim to the Middle East. An immigration wave they fiercely opposed... if anything because it would upset the arab majority.

Do you have any actual evidence to support the spewage above? And what is your bitch against Ashkenazi Jews: are you still pretending they are not related enough to suit you (to the Jews already in the land)? It's not for you to say.

 

[Hossfly]

Lots of good ideas for new threads coming from this one:

Hossfly = a comparative study between Mexico's loss of California, Texas and the palestinian loss of western Palestine, between Aztlan and other hispanic nationalist movements and palestinians.

Hossfly = a deeper explanation on what I call "the customary, unwritten laws of mankind concerning landgrabs".

RoccoR = the terrorist element of the palestinian armed struggle (targeting of civilians).

History/Roudy = the palestinian national identity.

Another good thread would be the History of Jihad. Since Yousef (AKA José on forums) is an Arab, he can tell us how the Muslims from the Saudi Peninsula invaded the surrounding countries and forced people to convert to Islam and killed many who refused. He can also tell us why the Muslims have such a problem with the small percentage of Christian survivors who are the descendents of those lucky enough not to have been killed (the Copts, the Assyrians, the Chaldeans) that they can't let these descendent practice their beliefs in peace. After all, this is the 21st century and one would think that as long as these Christians are not bothering anyone, why should there be such a problem.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Coyotes
They are there and they have been there as long as the Jews

Palestinian Jews are probably rolling in their graves right now...

You are using them to somehow justify the mass immigration of the Ashkenazim to the Middle East. An immigration wave they fiercely opposed... if anything because it would upset the arab majority.

Do you have any actual evidence to support the spewage above? And what is your bitch against Ashkenazi Jews: are you still pretending they are not related enough to suit you (to the Jews already in the land)? It's not for you to say.

Evidence, yes, links, no.

Denying the jewish and/or palestinian national identity is as low as a human being can get... I don't engage in such pornographic activities.

The continuous jewish presence in Palestine is one of the arguments people use to legitimize the state of Israel so the fact that the "continuous presence" spent the entire first half of the last century saying:

"Shut up, Zionists... You do not speak for us!!"

is ironic, to say the least.

That's all I said.

 

[José]

Lots of good ideas for new threads coming from this one:

Hossfly = a comparative study between Mexico's loss of California, Texas and the palestinian loss of western Palestine, between Aztlan and other hispanic nationalist movements and palestinians.

Hossfly = a deeper explanation on what I call "the customary, unwritten laws of mankind concerning landgrabs".

RoccoR = the terrorist element of the palestinian armed struggle (targeting of civilians).

History/Roudy = the palestinian national identity.

Another good thread would be the History of Jihad. Since Yousef (AKA José on forums) is an Arab, he can tell us how the Muslims from the Saudi Peninsula invaded the surrounding countries and forced people to convert to Islam and killed many who refused. He can also tell us why the Muslims have such a problem with the small percentage of Christian survivors who are the descendents of those lucky enough not to have been killed (the Copts, the Assyrians, the Chaldeans) that they can't let these descendent practice their beliefs in peace. After all, this is the 21st century and one would think that as long as these Christians are not bothering anyone, why should there be such a problem.

OK... so Hossfly has just admited that the jewish racial dictatorship is just as racist, exclusionary as Saudi Arabia and the other arab dictatorships he gives so much hell to...

I knew deep in my heart that this day would finally arrive, Hossfly!!

TINMORE, SHERRI... WE FINALLY WORKED THE MIRACLE OF CONVERTING THE MAN TO OUR CAUSE!!

HE FINALLY SAW THE LIGHT!!

JOIN THE PALESTINIAN TEAM, HOSSFLY!!

 

[toastman]

Parate a fumar mota cabron

 

[Hossfly]

Lots of good ideas for new threads coming from this one:

Hossfly = a comparative study between Mexico's loss of California, Texas and the palestinian loss of western Palestine, between Aztlan and other hispanic nationalist movements and palestinians.

Hossfly = a deeper explanation on what I call "the customary, unwritten laws of mankind concerning landgrabs".

RoccoR = the terrorist element of the palestinian armed struggle (targeting of civilians).

History/Roudy = the palestinian national identity.

Another good thread would be the History of Jihad. Since Yousef (AKA José on forums) is an Arab, he can tell us how the Muslims from the Saudi Peninsula invaded the surrounding countries and forced people to convert to Islam and killed many who refused. He can also tell us why the Muslims have such a problem with the small percentage of Christian survivors who are the descendents of those lucky enough not to have been killed (the Copts, the Assyrians, the Chaldeans) that they can't let these descendent practice their beliefs in peace. After all, this is the 21st century and one would think that as long as these Christians are not bothering anyone, why should there be such a problem.

OK... so Hossfly has just admited that the jewish racial dictatorship is just as racist, exclusionary as Saudi Arabia and the other arab dictatorships he gives so much hell to...

I knew deep in my heart that this day would finally arrive, Hossfly!!

TINMORE, SHERRI... WE FINALLY WORKED THE MIRACLE OF CONVERTING THE MAN TO OUR CAUSE!!

HE FINALLY SAW THE LIGHT!!

JOIN THE PALESTINIAN TEAM, HOSSFLY!!

Wie bitte?

 

[Hossfly]

Parate a fumar mota cabron

Yousef (aka as José) es una cucaracha quien es loco en su cabeza.

 

[Coyote]

Parate a fumar mota cabron

Enchiladas?

Taco Belle?

 

[Coyote]

You are proving that you're not informed enough about this topic and you are making up stuff to fit your bias and prejudices. Some of your claims are so outlandish it's laughable. How many times do you want to loose an argument in a single thread? LOL

I'm not making up anything. I provided sources. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong but genetic studies are not wrong and they show ancient connections among those peoples currently living there regardless of what they call themselves.

And, again - what is the point of your OP? To marginalize the Palestinians? To "prove" they have no right to any of that area? What exactly? Who cares what they are - they are people and they too have rights.

You provide sources that fit your insane idea of the history of the region and it's peoples, most of which have been debunked, at best. The reason you provide these types of sources is because you are not informed or familiar enough about the history of the region, so you pounce on anything that you can find, not knowing how ridiculous the assertions are. I don't think you'll find too many Palestinian Arabs that claim "we are the same as the Jews". Ha ha ha.

Ok. You might be right at that.

The point of my OP is, for the 100th time, these are noteworthy Arabs who were of prominence and their comments regarding "Palestinians". It's not my fault you feel their comments marginalize the Palestinians, they are of Arabs talking about other Arabs. Take it up with them. You can't discredit or disregard the truth just because it's not in line with your false ideas.

The issue is not their comments - it's yours. What is your intention in posting this? To marginalize them?

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel".
- Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council -

My point though, about the quotes is that out of context quotes are lousy at proving a point and you, Roudy, should know that because how often are partial anti-Zionist quotes taken out of context and used to bolster an argument of genocide? Do you keep to the same standard as here and claim context doesn't matter?

 

[Roudy]

I'm not making up anything. I provided sources. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong but genetic studies are not wrong and they show ancient connections among those peoples currently living there regardless of what they call themselves.

And, again - what is the point of your OP? To marginalize the Palestinians? To "prove" they have no right to any of that area? What exactly? Who cares what they are - they are people and they too have rights.

You provide sources that fit your insane idea of the history of the region and it's peoples, most of which have been debunked, at best. The reason you provide these types of sources is because you are not informed or familiar enough about the history of the region, so you pounce on anything that you can find, not knowing how ridiculous the assertions are. I don't think you'll find too many Palestinian Arabs that claim "we are the same as the Jews". Ha ha ha.

Ok. You might be right at that.

The point of my OP is, for the 100th time, these are noteworthy Arabs who were of prominence and their comments regarding "Palestinians". It's not my fault you feel their comments marginalize the Palestinians, they are of Arabs talking about other Arabs. Take it up with them. You can't discredit or disregard the truth just because it's not in line with your false ideas.

The issue is not their comments - it's yours. What is your intention in posting this? To marginalize them?

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel".
- Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council -

My point though, about the quotes is that out of context quotes are lousy at proving a point and you, Roudy, should know that because how often are partial anti-Zionist quotes taken out of context and used to bolster an argument of genocide? Do you keep to the same standard as here and claim context doesn't matter?

I'll give you one thing, in that at the same time these quotes are discrediting a Palestinian identity, they are also attacking the concept of Zionism. But the main point of this thread is that it was also many prominent Arabs that questioned a separate Palestinian identity.

As far as marginalization, why are you Pali supporters so thin skinned? I don't see you crying wolf about all the posts calling the IDF "child killers who target civilians intentionally" or "Israeli apartheid" or how about you-know-who that always makes sure to include some type of anti Semitic vomit in each of his posts. Where's your false outrage and "let's not jump to conclusions" there?

 

[Coyote]

You provide sources that fit your insane idea of the history of the region and it's peoples, most of which have been debunked, at best. The reason you provide these types of sources is because you are not informed or familiar enough about the history of the region, so you pounce on anything that you can find, not knowing how ridiculous the assertions are. I don't think you'll find too many Palestinian Arabs that claim "we are the same as the Jews". Ha ha ha.

Ok. You might be right at that.



The issue is not their comments - it's yours. What is your intention in posting this? To marginalize them?

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel".
- Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council -

My point though, about the quotes is that out of context quotes are lousy at proving a point and you, Roudy, should know that because how often are partial anti-Zionist quotes taken out of context and used to bolster an argument of genocide? Do you keep to the same standard as here and claim context doesn't matter?

I'll give you one thing, in that at the same time these quotes are discrediting a Palestinian identity, they are also attacking the concept of Zionism. But the main point of this thread is that it was also many prominent Arabs that questioned a separate Palestinian identity.

Ok, good point - I can accept that

As far as marginalization, why are you Pali supporters so thin skinned?

Perhaps for the same reason why some on the pro-Israel side is very defensive and thin skinned about any criticism of Israel - even when warranted? I don't happen to think the Palestinians are angels and there actions have not helped their cause any and in fact they are their own worst enemy much of the time. However - I think you'll notice here that the "pro-Israel side" vastly outnumbers the "pro-Palestinian" side. I think someone should speak for the Palestinians because there is more than one side to this complex issue and both sides involve human beings, families, children and roots - not just anonymous groups of people with labels.

What I object to is attempts to disenfranchise a people's legitimacy to a territory and I've said the same thing about those who try to claim that the Jews are not indiginous and therefore have no rights. It almost always seems to lead to statements justifying sending all Palestinians to Jordan and Syria or Jews back to Europe - both of which are unrealistic, inhumane and unjust.

I don't see you crying wolf about all the posts calling the IDF "child killers who target civilians intentionally"

I have objected to that when a certain poster goes on about it - I have also stated multiple times that Israel does make a big effort to avoid civilian casualties when it can much of the time, a big difference from Hamas who targets civilians. Why do you ignore it?

or "Israeli apartheid" or how about you-know-who that always makes sure to include some type of anti Semitic vomit in each of his posts. Where's your false outrage and "let's not jump to conclusions" there?

I happen to think there is a de-facto apartheid system in Israel due to inequeties in justice, water rights, land rights, building permits and family unification laws. That's been my opinion so I'm not "outraged".

As to the "anti-semitic vomit" - there are a posters that are just better to ignore, including those who spew "anti-muslim vomit". For some folks, their views aren't going to change and more - they have no desire to really discuss things. Why waste the effort - I don't have to prove anything to anyone, I like to understand different points of view and that's impossible when someone spouts vitriole, insults or views garnered from hate sites. It's also impossible to discuss issues when posters dogpile other posters rather than attacking their arguments and it turns into a free-for all.

I am under no obligation to address each and every comment in IP- and I won't. I'll respond to what I feel like as you do and just as HB67 does. I don't notice you being "outraged" at some of the things said about Muslims and Palestinians but then you've also made your feelings clear, multiple times - and that's your perogative. For some reason, you expect me to be neutral or even handed on all the issues but I'm not - I have things I agree with and things I disagree with but folks start shoving people into "pro-Pali" and "pro-Israeli" camps and then get incensed when they aren't all one or the other becuase the issues at play aren't all one or the other.

 

[Coyote]

HB67/Roudy - I am hereby relinquishing this particular debate - I did indeed paint myself into a corner when I should have stopped though Rocco made some excellant points that I agree with.

I do not however relinquish my argument about the use of quotes without context to prove a point. I think, Roudy, your point IS proved, but I don't think out of context quotes are the way to do it. They are easily misused particularly if they can't be tracked down. That's my opinion in general - not this particular case.

So have at it - I do deserve the criticism for not backing down when I was losing.

 

[Lipush]

Lots of good ideas for new threads coming from this one:

Hossfly = a comparative study between Mexico's loss of California, Texas and the palestinian loss of western Palestine, between Aztlan and other hispanic nationalist movements and palestinians.

Hossfly = a deeper explanation on what I call "the customary, unwritten laws of mankind concerning landgrabs".

RoccoR = the terrorist element of the palestinian armed struggle (targeting of civilians).

History/Roudy = the palestinian national identity.

Another good thread would be the History of Jihad. Since Yousef (AKA José on forums) is an Arab, he can tell us how the Muslims from the Saudi Peninsula invaded the surrounding countries and forced people to convert to Islam and killed many who refused. He can also tell us why the Muslims have such a problem with the small percentage of Christian survivors who are the descendents of those lucky enough not to have been killed (the Copts, the Assyrians, the Chaldeans) that they can't let these descendent practice their beliefs in peace. After all, this is the 21st century and one would think that as long as these Christians are not bothering anyone, why should there be such a problem.

OK... so Hossfly has just admited that the jewish racial dictatorship is just as racist, exclusionary as Saudi Arabia and the other arab dictatorships he gives so much hell to...

I knew deep in my heart that this day would finally arrive, Hossfly!!

TINMORE, SHERRI... WE FINALLY WORKED THE MIRACLE OF CONVERTING THE MAN TO OUR CAUSE!!

HE FINALLY SAW THE LIGHT!!

JOIN THE PALESTINIAN TEAM, HOSSFLY!!

I want some of the things you sniff!

 

[Lipush]

Parate a fumar mota cabron

Enchiladas?

Taco Belle?

That dude is hilarious! LMAO!

 

[toastman]

Is Jose a Spanish Arab ?

 

[Roudy]

Yusuf Islam aka Cat Stevens incognito.

[ame=http://youtube.com/watch?v=F5sTXe_CNas]Kids Nasheed | A is for Allah by Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens) - YouTube[/ame].

[ame="http://youtube.com/watch?v=0k6mQyu2GxM"]http://youtube.com/watch?v=0k6mQyu2GxM[/ame]

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Palestinians exist here and now - what difference does it make how they came to be or how recent?

It makes a big difference. If the people claiming to be "Palestinians" simply called themselves Arabs, nobody would regard them as a minority or a discreet people seeking their own nation. That is why the fiction of the "Palestinian" was created - to transform a segement of the massive Arab population and transform them into a small, weak, minorit group that needs its own country.

Right. And it was only after 1967 that they wanted their own country. They didn't call for it when Jordan occupied the land for 19 years.

Yes they did.

 

[toastman]

It makes a big difference. If the people claiming to be "Palestinians" simply called themselves Arabs, nobody would regard them as a minority or a discreet people seeking their own nation. That is why the fiction of the "Palestinian" was created - to transform a segement of the massive Arab population and transform them into a small, weak, minorit group that needs its own country.

Right. And it was only after 1967 that they wanted their own country. They didn't call for it when Jordan occupied the land for 19 years.

Yes they did.

Palestinian propaganda lie.