Louisiana Student Sues School Over Prayer

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

This is a clear violation of the Establishment Clause. The conduct by the school is evidence that they simply do not care as long as they can push religion. The teacher's wall displays also create a hostile environment. Those responsible should know this a clear violation of any students rights.

We gotta stop agreeing like this Admiral. It could bring about the Apocalypse!

But you're right. Pushing any one religion over another is a violation of the student's rights.

I have noticed recently that we seem to agree on quite a bit, but you still wander every now and then! I'll get you straight one of these days!

 

[ABikerSailor]

Chances are you are Christian. But, like I said, if she were Jewish or Muslim, saying or being in a room where everyone is saying that prayer would be kind of an affront to them. YOU might be okay with it, but not everyone would.

I am not okay with all the normal, everyday cursing that is uttered in front of me. So what. Not everything is about the "me". We can all learn respect and tolerance--especially when we are the one in the room that is marching to a different drummer. Why would a unique person want to destroy their uniqueness by insisting everyone else be like them?

She's not insisting that everyone be like her. She just wants the school to quit pushing one religion, because it violates the rights of the students. Like I said, I'm okay with the Pledge, but the prayer has to stay out of it unless it is a school that specifies that it is a religious school.

 

[Meriweather]

Certainly not. Those are social values.

Indoctrination is where you force little kids to stand there and murmur a prayer to an imaginary sky pixie followed by a fetish prayer to a piece of cloth, as if there's no alternative view of either allowed. The reverse of it ---- which is after all what a school should EXIST for if it must exist at all --- is to teach critical thinking. And critical thinking means you must consider the alternatives.

Schools victimizing kids by immersing them in robot-think are doing the direct opposite of what they should be doing. All that does is create robots.

A prayer, a pledge, any aspiration at all, has to be voluntary to be valid. It can't be coerced and be legitimate.

First, no one is forced to stand and murmur. Second of all, you have a very unrealistic view of children if you think all it takes to indoctrinate them is to say a prayer in their presence.

Second, you are after children not being taught anything about spirituality or a supreme being--which is actually a more powerful form of indoctrination than a morning prayer.

 

[Pogo]

Chances are you are Christian. But, like I said, if she were Jewish or Muslim, saying or being in a room where everyone is saying that prayer would be kind of an affront to them. YOU might be okay with it, but not everyone would.

I am not okay with all the normal, everyday cursing that is uttered in front of me. So what. Not everything is about the "me". We can all learn respect and tolerance--especially when we are the one in the room that is marching to a different drummer. Why would a unique person want to destroy their uniqueness by insisting everyone else be like them?

Is this a circumlocutionistic way to say "just remember, you're unique, just like everybody else"?

Joke aside, the situation of course is the reverse, where 'everyone else' wants to destroy the unique one.
And that is exactly what mob mentality does -- a perfect description.

 

[del]

Certainly not. Those are social values.

Indoctrination is where you force little kids to stand there and murmur a prayer to an imaginary sky pixie followed by a fetish prayer to a piece of cloth, as if there's no alternative view of either allowed. The reverse of it ---- which is after all what a school should EXIST for if it must exist at all --- is to teach critical thinking. And critical thinking means you must consider the alternatives.

Schools victimizing kids by immersing them in robot-think are doing the direct opposite of what they should be doing. All that does is create robots.

A prayer, a pledge, any aspiration at all, has to be voluntary to be valid. It can't be coerced and be legitimate.

First, no one is forced to stand and murmur. Second of all, you have a very unrealistic view of children if you think all it takes to indoctrinate them is to say a prayer in their presence.

Second, you are after children not being taught anything about spirituality or a supreme being--which is actually a more powerful form of indoctrination than a morning prayer.

fill their little heads with all the religious horseshit you want, but not on my dime.

 

[Pogo]

Certainly not. Those are social values.

Indoctrination is where you force little kids to stand there and murmur a prayer to an imaginary sky pixie followed by a fetish prayer to a piece of cloth, as if there's no alternative view of either allowed. The reverse of it ---- which is after all what a school should EXIST for if it must exist at all --- is to teach critical thinking. And critical thinking means you must consider the alternatives.

Schools victimizing kids by immersing them in robot-think are doing the direct opposite of what they should be doing. All that does is create robots.

A prayer, a pledge, any aspiration at all, has to be voluntary to be valid. It can't be coerced and be legitimate.

First, no one is forced to stand and murmur. Second of all, you have a very unrealistic view of children if you think all it takes to indoctrinate them is to say a prayer in their presence.

Oh no, I vividly remember my own indoctrination, and I still resent it to this day. Obviously that doesn't mean it can't be overcome, but why put an innocent kid in that hole in the first place?

And yes we were forced, and yes under pain of punishment. Vividly.

Second, you are after children not being taught anything about spirituality or a supreme being--which is actually a more powerful form of indoctrination than a morning prayer.

I don't get it. What do you mean I am "after children"?

 

[Meriweather]

Oh no, I vividly remember my own indoctrination, and I still resent it to this day. Obviously that doesn't mean it can't be overcome, but why put an innocent kid in that hole in the first place?

And yes we were forced, and yes under pain of punishment. Vividly.

Because you don't like the method that was used to teach you about spirituality and religion, you believe every other child from now on should not be taught at all? What about those of us who were taught in such a way we were presented with a great gift that has been useful and beneficial all of our lives? That gift cannot be passed on for the next generation to at least have their own choice? Seems like you feel you are "saving" them by making the choice for them instead of allowing them their own choice.

How about this: My freshman math teacher scared me speechless. Should I howl about how no innocent teen should be forced to take math? (Trust me, most students would rather take a religion class than a math class.)

 

[BULLDOG]

FORCED to do prayer? What a load of horseshit

I was forced to pray. Until 1965, before lunch, we had to stand by our desks and bow our heads while the next student in alphabetical order said a prayer. Now, more than 50 years later, students no longer are required to stand or say the prayer for the class, and they probably don't get a zero added to their daily grades for failure to participate,like I did, but I'm sure the discomfort felt by any student who would rather have nothing to do with it is still the same. We should have come further than that by now.

 

[Pogo]

Oh no, I vividly remember my own indoctrination, and I still resent it to this day. Obviously that doesn't mean it can't be overcome, but why put an innocent kid in that hole in the first place?

And yes we were forced, and yes under pain of punishment. Vividly.

Because you don't like the method that was used to teach you about spirituality and religion,

Stop right there.

NOTHING was ever used to teach me about spirituality. I had to go get that on my own. Catholic school of the 1950s didn't teach spirituality. It taught conformity, it taught mob mentality, it taught robot thinking and you damn well better memorize that prayer. And the Pledge of Allegiance right there with it, a distinction without a difference.

Carry on....

... you believe every other child from now on should not be taught at all?

I said this ---- where?

What about those of us who were taught in such a way we were presented with a great gift that has been useful and beneficial all of our lives? That gift cannot be passed on for the next generation to at least have their own choice? Seems like you feel you are "saving" them by making the choice for them instead of allowing them their own choice.

"Allowing their own choice" is exactly what I'm 'after'. It's also what this lawsuit in the OP is about. Good to see you coming around. Even if it looks like you used your own strawman as a point of departure.

How about this: My freshman math teacher scared me speechless. Should I howl about how no innocent teen should be forced to take math? (Trust me, most students would rather take a religion class than a math class.)

You should howl about math. I do it on a daily basis. Math is the antichrist.
But actually no you shouldn't howl. You're an owl.

 

[BULLDOG]

Quick question......................granted, she doesn't like saying the Lord's Prayer in public school, but what if she were Jewish or Buddhist, or possibly even Muslim? Saying that prayer would go against everything those faiths believe, because it's uniquely Christian.

If you want to have the schools say the pledge of allegiance, fine, it's part of our culture and country.

However..................being forced to sit in a room while people are praying something that you don't believe is b.s. What's even worse is the crap she's catching from other students for not wanting to pray.

Quick answer, and I am answering only for myself. I wouldn't mind in the least if a prayer from another faith was said in my presence. If a prayer was said to Satan, I would get up and leave the room. Ever wonder why it is only atheists, agnostics, and Christians who don't like the wording of another denomination's prayer quarrel about prayer?

You bet. Ask how many right wingers don't have a problem with politicians who might not be Christian, or even worse, might be Muslim.

 

[Meriweather]

Stop right there.

NOTHING was ever used to teach me about spirituality. I had to go get that on my own. Catholic school of the 1950s didn't teach spirituality. It taught conformity, it taught mob mentality, it taught robot thinking and you damn well better memorize that prayer. And the Pledge of Allegiance right there with it, a distinction without a difference.

I too went to Catholic School, not in the 1950s, of course, much later. Your experience was not my experience and certainly not the experience of teens today.

 

[Meriweather]

You bet. Ask how many right wingers don't have a problem with politicians who might not be Christian, or even worse, might be Muslim.

Right wingers are in the majority?

 

[Pogo]

Stop right there.

NOTHING was ever used to teach me about spirituality. I had to go get that on my own. Catholic school of the 1950s didn't teach spirituality. It taught conformity, it taught mob mentality, it taught robot thinking and you damn well better memorize that prayer. And the Pledge of Allegiance right there with it, a distinction without a difference.

I too went to Catholic School, not in the 1950s, of course, much later. Your experience was not my experience and certainly not the experience of teens today.

Matters not. It's one experience of indoctrination. And said indoctrination is, once again, the polar opposite of, as you yourself put it, "allowing them their own choice". NOBODY gets allowed their own choice in an indoctrination.

 

[RWNJ]

Louisiana student says prayer was forced at school, so she sued - CNN

Personally, I don't have a problem with the Pledge of Allegiance. I said the Pledge in school, I still do in public places. However, what I do not believe in is teachers including religion of any kind in their curriculum unless it is a religion-based school. If someone doesn't like the Pledge, don't participate. Too many people are butt hurt over every little issue. Stop whining about something that doesn't hurt you.

Atheists won't be happy until God and prayer are completely wiped out in America. This is their goal, despite what has happened to every other culture that has rejected God. Without exception, society breaks down and their culture is destroyed or conquered. Just ask the Roman Empire, or one of the many other cultures that no longer exist because they gave God the finger and invited the devil in with open arms.

 

[BULLDOG]

You bet. Ask how many right wingers don't have a problem with politicians who might not be Christian, or even worse, might be Muslim.

Right wingers are in the majority?

My response had nothing to do with the majority.

 

[Meriweather]

My response had nothing to do with the majority.

What did it have to do with?

 

[TNHarley]

FORCED to do prayer? What a load of horseshit

Indeed. That's why she sued, innit? Although I'm sure attorneys have a more lofty legal term for "horseshit".

I hope she wins if that's what happened.

If you had read the link, you would have seen that while she's not being forced to pray, she still has to remain in the room while others are standing and praying. And, because of her beliefs and refusal to pray the Lord's Prayer, she is being bullied and harassed for it.

I hope she wins.

Can they leave the room like that? Idk..

FORCED to do prayer? What a load of horseshit

I was forced to pray. Until 1965, before lunch, we had to stand by our desks and bow our heads while the next student in alphabetical order said a prayer. Now, more than 50 years later, students no longer are required to stand or say the prayer for the class, and they probably don't get a zero added to their daily grades for failure to participate,like I did, but I'm sure the discomfort felt by any student who would rather have nothing to do with it is still the same. We should have come further than that by now.

Any excuse to make up for those shitty grades, ey?

 

[Meriweather]

Matters not. It's one experience of indoctrination. And said indoctrination is, once again, the polar opposite of, as you yourself put it, "allowing them their own choice". NOBODY gets allowed their own choice in an indoctrination.

Yet, you made a choice.

 

[Pogo]

Matters not. It's one experience of indoctrination. And said indoctrination is, once again, the polar opposite of, as you yourself put it, "allowing them their own choice". NOBODY gets allowed their own choice in an indoctrination.

Yet, you made a choice.

Only after I escaped the Prison post-trauma.

And indeed "prison" is what I've called that place for my entire life.

 

[Meriweather]

And indeed "prison" is what I've called that place for my entire life.

Hey, that's what my daughters call their Middle School years in public school!

I guess it is true: The more things change, the more they remain the same.