Louisiana Student Sues School Over Prayer

[ABikerSailor]

Stop right there.

NOTHING was ever used to teach me about spirituality. I had to go get that on my own. Catholic school of the 1950s didn't teach spirituality. It taught conformity, it taught mob mentality, it taught robot thinking and you damn well better memorize that prayer. And the Pledge of Allegiance right there with it, a distinction without a difference.

I too went to Catholic School, not in the 1950s, of course, much later. Your experience was not my experience and certainly not the experience of teens today.

Here's my experience with spirituality, and why I don't like organized religion.

My mother married a dude who was a heavy duty Catholic, and for a year or two, I had to go to Catholic school, where we were FORCED to go to church services, as well as had morning prayers. Didn't much care for that kind of indoctrination.

Then............I became an orphan and lived with my Aunt and Uncle in Libby for a year, nobody was required to go to church or pray. Then, I lived for a couple of years with my Grandparents, and again............same thing. They just said to believe in God and try to be a decent person. Incidentally, during those times I was in public school. Yes, we said the pledge, but no, prayer was strictly left out of it.

Then...............I went into foster care for a few years, and every where I went the people would tell me that I now had to believe as they did, and if I didn't get "saved" (whatever that is), I was going to hell. That is a fairly heavy trip for a kid, especially when I've already been through several religions along the way.

Then, I ran away from foster care and spent my Senior year with my Grandparents. Again, was told just to believe in God and try to live a decent life.

When I got into the Navy, I was finally able to explore whatever kind of belief system I wanted. So, I started to check out everything from Judaic beliefs, to Taoism, to Buddhism, and believe it or not, a bit more of an investigation into Christianity.

Know what I learned? All religions are pretty much the same. They have a version of Heaven and Hell, they believe that what you do in this life determines what happens to you in the next, as well as all have some form of the Golden Rule. As a friend of mine once said, if I looked for where religions were similar rather than different, I'd get a hell of a lot further in understanding a Higher Power. He was right.

Now? I don't think that it is right to force a person to believe one way or the other, they should make up their own minds about who or what they believe in. I also believe that all paths lead to the top of the mountain. Doesn't matter if you come from the north, south, east or west, because eventually, you will get to the top of the mountain. Same thing with religion. Doesn't matter what vehicle you use to get to a belief in a Higher Power, just matters that you get one.

My belief system right now? I'm a Taoist, but also like to listen to Jewish rabbis and scholars. Not so much into listening to Christian preachers, because they seem to get too wrapped up in their dogma and forget what they are supposed to be talking about. Same thing with Muslims. I do like learning about Sikhism though, they seem to have a pretty good handle on things.

 

[LittleNipper]

Stop right there.

NOTHING was ever used to teach me about spirituality. I had to go get that on my own. Catholic school of the 1950s didn't teach spirituality. It taught conformity, it taught mob mentality, it taught robot thinking and you damn well better memorize that prayer. And the Pledge of Allegiance right there with it, a distinction without a difference.

I too went to Catholic School, not in the 1950s, of course, much later. Your experience was not my experience and certainly not the experience of teens today.

Here's my experience with spirituality, and why I don't like organized religion.

My mother married a dude who was a heavy duty Catholic, and for a year or two, I had to go to Catholic school, where we were FORCED to go to church services, as well as had morning prayers. Didn't much care for that kind of indoctrination.

Then............I became an orphan and lived with my Aunt and Uncle in Libby for a year, nobody was required to go to church or pray. Then, I lived for a couple of years with my Grandparents, and again............same thing. They just said to believe in God and try to be a decent person. Incidentally, during those times I was in public school. Yes, we said the pledge, but no, prayer was strictly left out of it.

Then...............I went into foster care for a few years, and every where I went the people would tell me that I now had to believe as they did, and if I didn't get "saved" (whatever that is), I was going to hell. That is a fairly heavy trip for a kid, especially when I've already been through several religions along the way.

Then, I ran away from foster care and spent my Senior year with my Grandparents. Again, was told just to believe in God and try to live a decent life.

When I got into the Navy, I was finally able to explore whatever kind of belief system I wanted. So, I started to check out everything from Judaic beliefs, to Taoism, to Buddhism, and believe it or not, a bit more of an investigation into Christianity.

Know what I learned? All religions are pretty much the same. They have a version of Heaven and Hell, they believe that what you do in this life determines what happens to you in the next, as well as all have some form of the Golden Rule. As a friend of mine once said, if I looked for where religions were similar rather than different, I'd get a hell of a lot further in understanding a Higher Power. He was right.

Now? I don't think that it is right to force a person to believe one way or the other, they should make up their own minds about who or what they believe in. I also believe that all paths lead to the top of the mountain. Doesn't matter if you come from the north, south, east or west, because eventually, you will get to the top of the mountain. Same thing with religion. Doesn't matter what vehicle you use to get to a belief in a Higher Power, just matters that you get one.

My belief system right now? I'm a Taoist, but also like to listen to Jewish rabbis and scholars. Not so much into listening to Christian preachers, because they seem to get too wrapped up in their dogma and forget what they are supposed to be talking about. Same thing with Muslims. I do like learning about Sikhism though, they seem to have a pretty good handle on things.

So your saying that being forced to pray didn't hurt you in making an independent choice to becoming a Taoist. So there can be nothing wrong in trying to promote prayer in school.

 

[LittleNipper]

I wonder if this young agnostic doesn't try to attend classes during Christmas and Easter breaks? It would seem that not a few people (religious or not) enjoy the benefits without wishing to put themselves out.

 

[Meriweather]

Stop right there.

NOTHING was ever used to teach me about spirituality. I had to go get that on my own. Catholic school of the 1950s didn't teach spirituality. It taught conformity, it taught mob mentality, it taught robot thinking and you damn well better memorize that prayer. And the Pledge of Allegiance right there with it, a distinction without a difference.

I too went to Catholic School, not in the 1950s, of course, much later. Your experience was not my experience and certainly not the experience of teens today.

Here's my experience with spirituality, and why I don't like organized religion.

My mother married a dude who was a heavy duty Catholic, and for a year or two, I had to go to Catholic school, where we were FORCED to go to church services, as well as had morning prayers. Didn't much care for that kind of indoctrination.

Then............I became an orphan and lived with my Aunt and Uncle in Libby for a year, nobody was required to go to church or pray. Then, I lived for a couple of years with my Grandparents, and again............same thing. They just said to believe in God and try to be a decent person. Incidentally, during those times I was in public school. Yes, we said the pledge, but no, prayer was strictly left out of it.

Then...............I went into foster care for a few years, and every where I went the people would tell me that I now had to believe as they did, and if I didn't get "saved" (whatever that is), I was going to hell. That is a fairly heavy trip for a kid, especially when I've already been through several religions along the way.

Then, I ran away from foster care and spent my Senior year with my Grandparents. Again, was told just to believe in God and try to live a decent life.

When I got into the Navy, I was finally able to explore whatever kind of belief system I wanted. So, I started to check out everything from Judaic beliefs, to Taoism, to Buddhism, and believe it or not, a bit more of an investigation into Christianity.

Know what I learned? All religions are pretty much the same. They have a version of Heaven and Hell, they believe that what you do in this life determines what happens to you in the next, as well as all have some form of the Golden Rule. As a friend of mine once said, if I looked for where religions were similar rather than different, I'd get a hell of a lot further in understanding a Higher Power. He was right.

Now? I don't think that it is right to force a person to believe one way or the other, they should make up their own minds about who or what they believe in. I also believe that all paths lead to the top of the mountain. Doesn't matter if you come from the north, south, east or west, because eventually, you will get to the top of the mountain. Same thing with religion. Doesn't matter what vehicle you use to get to a belief in a Higher Power, just matters that you get one.

My belief system right now? I'm a Taoist, but also like to listen to Jewish rabbis and scholars. Not so much into listening to Christian preachers, because they seem to get too wrapped up in their dogma and forget what they are supposed to be talking about. Same thing with Muslims. I do like learning about Sikhism though, they seem to have a pretty good handle on things.

First, calling it "indoctrination" adds nothing to your argument, just displays bias. Clearly you were not indoctrinated, and clearly you did not care for the form of teaching. But all that aside...

The argument seems to be, "I did not like it, so no one else should have to endure it." There are many things we dislike as children, but the whole purpose of childhood is to be exposed to many different things. Then, as we mature, we tend to choose things in which to specialize.

For many, faith opens up a whole new world, with a whole new approach to life, and whole new experiences. To take this away from children would be like taking math from Einstein because half the children in his class were bored and did not care for math. I teach a lot of math. An amazing amount of students tell me their parents tell them, "Never used it once I graduated."

I am not saying that Religion should be a requirement. I am saying there should be no problem in offering it as an elective at middle school and high school levels.

 

[hobelim]

I am not saying that Religion should be a requirement. I am saying there should be no problem in offering it as an elective at middle school and high school levels.

Religion as a high school class?

Sure, as long as it is called " ancient superstitions of the past, 101."

You aren't suggesting people should hand out Jesus crackers and tell the students that praying to it and eating it the way to eternal life.

Are you?

For many, faith opens up a whole new world, with a whole new approach to life, and whole new experiences. To take this away from children would be like taking math from Einstein

Faith opens up a new world for adults just like pretense and make believe opens up a whole new world for children.

For many it only leads to dishonesty, delusions, and mental illness.

Taking that away would be about as bad as taking a thorn out of their mind.


Have you no shame?

 

[Penelope]

Quick question......................granted, she doesn't like saying the Lord's Prayer in public school, but what if she were Jewish or Buddhist, or possibly even Muslim? Saying that prayer would go against everything those faiths believe, because it's uniquely Christian.

If you want to have the schools say the pledge of allegiance, fine, it's part of our culture and country.

However..................being forced to sit in a room while people are praying something that you don't believe is b.s. What's even worse is the crap she's catching from other students for not wanting to pray.

Quick answer, and I am answering only for myself. I wouldn't mind in the least if a prayer from another faith was said in my presence. If a prayer was said to Satan, I would get up and leave the room. Ever wonder why it is only atheists, agnostics, and Christians who don't like the wording of another denomination's prayer quarrel about prayer?

Go in your closet and pray.

 

[hobelim]

Quick question......................granted, she doesn't like saying the Lord's Prayer in public school, but what if she were Jewish or Buddhist, or possibly even Muslim? Saying that prayer would go against everything those faiths believe, because it's uniquely Christian.

If you want to have the schools say the pledge of allegiance, fine, it's part of our culture and country.

However..................being forced to sit in a room while people are praying something that you don't believe is b.s. What's even worse is the crap she's catching from other students for not wanting to pray.

Quick answer, and I am answering only for myself. I wouldn't mind in the least if a prayer from another faith was said in my presence. If a prayer was said to Satan, I would get up and leave the room. Ever wonder why it is only atheists, agnostics, and Christians who don't like the wording of another denomination's prayer quarrel about prayer?

Go in your closet and pray.

Exactly.

And what did Jesus mean exactly by saying to go into the closet, shut the door and pray to God in secret if not to withdraw into your mind and shut your mouth?

What did Jesus call people who like to babble in front of everyone in public prayer?

 

[Meriweather]

Go in your closet and pray.

Unfortunately, there is no one in your closet to teach religious philosophy.

 

[Windparadox]

`
This looks like a slam dunk, for the ACLU.

 

[featherlite]

Personally it would be a breath of fresh air to live in a community like that and I just eye roll at her bieng so "offended".
Otoh...What if it was a muslim prayer and verses of the Koran were broadcast throughout the day?
Is a public school even allowed to this, broadcast Bible verses during the day?

 

[Pogo]

Stop right there.

NOTHING was ever used to teach me about spirituality. I had to go get that on my own. Catholic school of the 1950s didn't teach spirituality. It taught conformity, it taught mob mentality, it taught robot thinking and you damn well better memorize that prayer. And the Pledge of Allegiance right there with it, a distinction without a difference.

I too went to Catholic School, not in the 1950s, of course, much later. Your experience was not my experience and certainly not the experience of teens today.

Here's my experience with spirituality, and why I don't like organized religion.

My mother married a dude who was a heavy duty Catholic, and for a year or two, I had to go to Catholic school, where we were FORCED to go to church services, as well as had morning prayers. Didn't much care for that kind of indoctrination.

Then............I became an orphan and lived with my Aunt and Uncle in Libby for a year, nobody was required to go to church or pray. Then, I lived for a couple of years with my Grandparents, and again............same thing. They just said to believe in God and try to be a decent person. Incidentally, during those times I was in public school. Yes, we said the pledge, but no, prayer was strictly left out of it.

Then...............I went into foster care for a few years, and every where I went the people would tell me that I now had to believe as they did, and if I didn't get "saved" (whatever that is), I was going to hell. That is a fairly heavy trip for a kid, especially when I've already been through several religions along the way.

Then, I ran away from foster care and spent my Senior year with my Grandparents. Again, was told just to believe in God and try to live a decent life.

When I got into the Navy, I was finally able to explore whatever kind of belief system I wanted. So, I started to check out everything from Judaic beliefs, to Taoism, to Buddhism, and believe it or not, a bit more of an investigation into Christianity.

Know what I learned? All religions are pretty much the same. They have a version of Heaven and Hell, they believe that what you do in this life determines what happens to you in the next, as well as all have some form of the Golden Rule. As a friend of mine once said, if I looked for where religions were similar rather than different, I'd get a hell of a lot further in understanding a Higher Power. He was right.

Now? I don't think that it is right to force a person to believe one way or the other, they should make up their own minds about who or what they believe in. I also believe that all paths lead to the top of the mountain. Doesn't matter if you come from the north, south, east or west, because eventually, you will get to the top of the mountain. Same thing with religion. Doesn't matter what vehicle you use to get to a belief in a Higher Power, just matters that you get one.

My belief system right now? I'm a Taoist, but also like to listen to Jewish rabbis and scholars. Not so much into listening to Christian preachers, because they seem to get too wrapped up in their dogma and forget what they are supposed to be talking about. Same thing with Muslims. I do like learning about Sikhism though, they seem to have a pretty good handle on things.

Now that's what I mean by critical thinking, versus its opposite, coerced robot-think. The former is what schooling, or in a broader sense education, is for, while the latter works directly against it. And into the dustbin of the latter can be tossed those mandatory school prayers, whether to a religion or to a national fetish --- I don't see any difference between the two. And outside the realm of education the ideas of national anthems at sports events and the like.

My journey followed somewhat a similar path at least at the start and end points, minus the domestic upheaval, which at its beginning left a five-year-old kid traumatized in an ominous prison (schoolroom) run by penguin dictators, wondering what the hell we had done to deserve being tossed into this dark den of punishment-fetish based on echoes of Inquisition. I don't believe anyone anywhere grows in a productive way when motivated by negativity, coercion and threats of violence.

My cousin relates how her grandmother (and mine) would have cousin sit in a chair while she brushed and groomed cousin's hair, letting her know calmly that she would inevitably be going to hell because her mother -- grandmother's daughter --- married a Catholic instead of a Protestant.

Robot-think does some weird shit to people.

 

[featherlite]

Indeed. That's why she sued, innit? Although I'm sure attorneys have a more lofty legal term for "horseshit".

In actuality, she doesn't have to say the prayer, or even stand during it. She sits down. Her complaint is that she has to listen while others say it. (She is now agnostic.)

I don't know the policy in Louisiana, but in California no one is required to stand for the Pledge, or even be in the room when the Pledge is said.

She probably feels pressure but I doubt she is "forced". My concern is its happening at a public school. PS need to stay neutral as much as possible.

 

[Penelope]

Go in your closet and pray.

Unfortunately, there is no one in your closet to teach religious philosophy.

Become a preacher and preach in a church. Public schools are not the place for prayers.

 

[Pogo]

Go in your closet and pray.

Unfortunately, there is no one in your closet to teach religious philosophy.

Become a preacher and preach in a church. Public schools are not the place for prayers.

Exactly. A non-theocratic government shall make no law establishing a state religion. If the government declares your kids have to go to school, then it can't use that as a back door to establish religion once they're in there ---- which is exactly what's going on here. Once that leap is taken it ceases to be a school and commences to be a church. A state-mandatory church.

 

[Meriweather]

Become a preacher and preach in a church. Public schools are not the place for prayers.

Teaching religious philosophy is no more preaching than it is praying.

 

[Pogo]

Become a preacher and preach in a church. Public schools are not the place for prayers.

Teaching religious philosophy is no more preaching than it is praying.

Now you're deliberately conflating the topic.

Teaching any kind of philosophy -- teaching anything for that matter --- is opening doors for the mind. Opening doors and inviting a tour of what's behind it. Nobody could possibly have an issue with that except the wilfully ignorant.

That's got nothing to do with the idea of a state-mandated church, which is what a public school becomes once it veers down that road. Coercing vulnerable kids into a robot-think is in no way "teaching philosophy". It's an act of aggression. It's a power trip.

 

[Meriweather]

She probably feels pressure but I doubt she is "forced". My concern is its happening at a public school. PS need to stay neutral as much as possible.

"Neutral" is not synonymous with "elimination". People cannot seem to envision a religious philosophy class that is neither prayer nor preaching. Perhaps that is the best argument of why such an elective should be available.

 

[Meriweather]

Now you're deliberately conflating the topic.

Teaching any kind of philosophy -- teaching anything for that matter --- is opening doors for the mind. Opening doors and inviting a tour of what's behind it. Nobody could possibly have an issue with that except the wilfully ignorant.

That's got nothing to do with the idea of a state-mandated church, which is what a public school becomes once it veers down that road. Coercing vulnerable kids into a robot-think is in no way "teaching philosophy". It's an act of aggression. It's a power trip.

Teaching religious philosophy has nothing to do with "state-mandated" church. Nor is religious philosophy an act of aggression. In fact, it directs students away from "robot think."

 

[Pogo]

Stop right there.

NOTHING was ever used to teach me about spirituality. I had to go get that on my own. Catholic school of the 1950s didn't teach spirituality. It taught conformity, it taught mob mentality, it taught robot thinking and you damn well better memorize that prayer. And the Pledge of Allegiance right there with it, a distinction without a difference.

I too went to Catholic School, not in the 1950s, of course, much later. Your experience was not my experience and certainly not the experience of teens today.

Here's my experience with spirituality, and why I don't like organized religion.

My mother married a dude who was a heavy duty Catholic, and for a year or two, I had to go to Catholic school, where we were FORCED to go to church services, as well as had morning prayers. Didn't much care for that kind of indoctrination.

Then............I became an orphan and lived with my Aunt and Uncle in Libby for a year, nobody was required to go to church or pray. Then, I lived for a couple of years with my Grandparents, and again............same thing. They just said to believe in God and try to be a decent person. Incidentally, during those times I was in public school. Yes, we said the pledge, but no, prayer was strictly left out of it.

Then...............I went into foster care for a few years, and every where I went the people would tell me that I now had to believe as they did, and if I didn't get "saved" (whatever that is), I was going to hell. That is a fairly heavy trip for a kid, especially when I've already been through several religions along the way.

Then, I ran away from foster care and spent my Senior year with my Grandparents. Again, was told just to believe in God and try to live a decent life.

When I got into the Navy, I was finally able to explore whatever kind of belief system I wanted. So, I started to check out everything from Judaic beliefs, to Taoism, to Buddhism, and believe it or not, a bit more of an investigation into Christianity.

Know what I learned? All religions are pretty much the same. They have a version of Heaven and Hell, they believe that what you do in this life determines what happens to you in the next, as well as all have some form of the Golden Rule. As a friend of mine once said, if I looked for where religions were similar rather than different, I'd get a hell of a lot further in understanding a Higher Power. He was right.

Now? I don't think that it is right to force a person to believe one way or the other, they should make up their own minds about who or what they believe in. I also believe that all paths lead to the top of the mountain. Doesn't matter if you come from the north, south, east or west, because eventually, you will get to the top of the mountain. Same thing with religion. Doesn't matter what vehicle you use to get to a belief in a Higher Power, just matters that you get one.

My belief system right now? I'm a Taoist, but also like to listen to Jewish rabbis and scholars. Not so much into listening to Christian preachers, because they seem to get too wrapped up in their dogma and forget what they are supposed to be talking about. Same thing with Muslims. I do like learning about Sikhism though, they seem to have a pretty good handle on things.

So your saying that being forced to pray didn't hurt you in making an independent choice to becoming a Taoist. So there can be nothing wrong in trying to promote prayer in school.

That doesn't make a damn lick of sense. Try again.

"I crashed my car going to work. Then I took a cab and got there on time. Therefore there can be nothing wrong in wrecking one's car."

 

[Pogo]

Now you're deliberately conflating the topic.

Teaching any kind of philosophy -- teaching anything for that matter --- is opening doors for the mind. Opening doors and inviting a tour of what's behind it. Nobody could possibly have an issue with that except the wilfully ignorant.

That's got nothing to do with the idea of a state-mandated church, which is what a public school becomes once it veers down that road. Coercing vulnerable kids into a robot-think is in no way "teaching philosophy". It's an act of aggression. It's a power trip.

Teaching religious philosophy has nothing to do with "state-mandated" church. Nor is religious philosophy an act of aggression. In fact, it directs students away from "robot think."

That's what I just said. Therefore don't conflate the two.