Jewish Democracy?

[Daniyel]

Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time

The Religion of Peace and a whole stack of dead bodies.

Israel has withdrawn from areas only to be attacked from the same locations since they became a nation. The Arab League and their terror groups have vowed to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

And we want to talk about how Democracy sucks in Israel?

That is a hate site. As we have already seen any number of times on this forum, those sites are NOT to be trusted. They fake photos, they fake text, right and left with no regard for truth.

So please try to use reputable sources for info. Better still, see if you can find an Arab source threatening to "wipe Israel off the face of the earth." Its just like writing your first research paper in 7th grade: Come up with a quality source for each statement.

And YES democracy sucks in Israel.

Another thing I would like you to view as well:

@amity1844

 

[MHunterB]

Have you heard that term... Jewish Democracy?

Does a democracy with second class citizenship for ANY definable segment of a population make sense?

Is it even possible?​

How can a state of more than one religion call itself a democracy if a single one owns the government?



My humble opinion: The Israelis are digging in deep on the wrong side of history. Just as wrong as those who would fight to impose Sharia Law on a state.

You can either have something akin to Jewish Sharia Law, or you can have a democracy.

"Jewish Democracy" is a joke. ​

`​

Very insightful, very correct, and very grateful you posted this.

I'VE BEEN TRYING TO TELL THEM ...!!!!!

You've been continually telling us lies. And the 'second-class citizen' stuff is one of those lies.

 

[Indeependent]

Democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens participate equally—either directly or indirectly through elected representatives—in the proposal, development, and creation of laws. It encompasses social, religious, cultural, ethnic and racial equality, justice, and liberty[according to whom?][citation needed]. The term originates from the Greek δημοκρατία (dēmokratía) "rule of the people",[1] which was found from δῆμος (dêmos) "people" and κράτος (kratos) "power" or "rule" in the 5th century BCE to denote the political systems then existing in Greek city-states, notably Athens; the term is an antonym to ἀριστοκρατία (aristokratia) "rule of an elite". While theoretically these definitions are in opposition, in practice the distinction has been blurred historically.[2] The political system of Classical Athens, for example, granted democratic citizenship to an elite class of free men and excluded slaves and women from political participation. In virtually all democratic governments throughout ancient and modern history, democratic citizenship consisted of an elite class until full enfranchisement was won for all adult citizens in most modern democracies through the suffrage movements of the 19th and 20th centuries. The English word dates to the 16th century, from the older Middle French and Middle Latin equivalents."

So Israel is a Democracy.
That was easy.

 

[amity1844]

But let me ask you, as a women do you see Gaza give you full freedom and civil rights as it given to Moona in Israel?

I am not getting through to you. Unless "Moona" is Jewish, Moona does NOT have full freedom and civil rights in Israel. That is a fallacy, a fable.

Have you ever heard about 1 single Jew in Gaza enjoying ANY kind of civil rights?

My understanding is that Israel forced all the Jews to leave Gaza so that it could take broader aim without having to worry about who it killed.

or even in Israel, does Hamas EVER tried negotiating or considering our Human Rights?

Hamas I am sure would LOVE to negotiate and consider your human rights. When and where?
My point is of course that Israel has refused to meet with Hamas....

Try to answer all of those or at least one, I don't think its possible..just admit for once you are wrong, and no cause justifies use of violence, specially not Hamas but this is a far more progressive discussion. [MENTION=49350]amity1844[/MENTION]

I absolutely can justify the use of violence. Its a war.

 

[Indeependent]

In the immortal words of Charlie Sheen..
Israel...Winning!

 

[Daniyel]

I absolutely can justify the use of violence. Its a war.

I absolutely can Justify the use of violence. Its a war.

 

[amity1844]

No, dippy-doo, this definition proves that Israel is NOT a democracy. Did you read the quote from the Israeli supreme court? Giving equality to non-Jews would be ....?? What did it say now?

Democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens participate equally—either directly or indirectly through elected representatives—in the proposal, development, and creation of laws. It encompasses social, religious, cultural, ethnic and racial equality, justice, and liberty...[according to whom?][citation needed]. The term originates from the Greek δημοκρατία (dēmokratía) "rule of the people",[1] which was found from δῆμος (dêmos) "people" and κράτος (kratos) "power" or "rule" in the 5th century BCE to denote the political systems then existing in Greek city-states, notably Athens; the term is an antonym to ἀριστοκρατία (aristokratia) "rule of an elite". ....

So Israel is a Democracy.
That was easy.

You mean NOT a democracy.

 

[Indeependent]

No, dippy-doo, this definition proves that Israel is NOT a democracy. Did you read the quote from the Israeli supreme court? Giving equality to non-Jews would be ....?? What did it say now?

Democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens participate equally—either directly or indirectly through elected representatives—in the proposal, development, and creation of laws. It encompasses social, religious, cultural, ethnic and racial equality, justice, and liberty...[according to whom?][citation needed]. The term originates from the Greek δημοκρατία (dēmokratía) "rule of the people",[1] which was found from δῆμος (dêmos) "people" and κράτος (kratos) "power" or "rule" in the 5th century BCE to denote the political systems then existing in Greek city-states, notably Athens; the term is an antonym to ἀριστοκρατία (aristokratia) "rule of an elite". ....

So Israel is a Democracy.
That was easy.

You mean NOT a democracy.

Suddenly you can't read English?
Read it again, with emphasis on the word, "eligible", the 10th word in the first sentence of the definition.
Israel is a Democracy.
That was easy.

Open mouth, insert foot of choice.

 

[amity1844]

You've been continually telling us lies. And the 'second-class citizen' stuff is one of those lies.

Disprove anything I have said.

And while you are at it, look for that quote from the Israeli supreme court justice.

Israel's Jewish democracy is just about equivalent to South Africa's white democracy.

 

[Coyote]

Lets get back to the topic kiddos - refer to the OP if you aren't sure.

 

[teddyearp]

I just feel that the same should apply to any "Religious Democracy". If it quacks like a Theocracy...


As far as Arabs in general, and their representation in Israeli politics today, specifically goes, my knowledge is very limited.

[MENTION=9429]AVG-JOE[/MENTION], you do raise some very valid points, basically your question is should Israel's form of government be more considered a Theocracy?

Well, I don't know. Maybe, but mostly not. After my visit in 2011 I did some research on Israel's system and found that it has many many many more political parties than what we have here in the U.S.; which seem to be deadlocked into a two party system (which I find anti-constitutional). And in Israel, they vary from all spectrum's of religiousness and political beliefs. Actually it is very confusing for an American to try to comprehend. I suggest base upon your own post, you look into it more. Many are represented.

Which brings me to the part of your post that I have bolded. When I was in Israel in 2011, I encountered Jews, Druze, Christians, and Ethiopians. Nobody seemed to have complaints then. In fact most of my taxi drivers spoke either Russian (in Netanya), or Arabic (in Jerusalem). I ate at a restaurant in Tiberias that was owned by an Arab. I could go on and on. Nobody expressed any complaints.

But suffice it to say, I think that since my next trip in April 2015 is to be less of a tourist and more to be 'local' I will try to let you know how all the different peoples feel then.

I say this to you and amity, because, IMHO one can sit behind their monitor and post any opinion. However if you post said opinion without any talking to the locals recently, your opinion is moot.

 

[irosie91]

for those who do not know----the definition of "democracy" has never
included "equal rights for all persons in the society" The extent of
utter ignorance exhibited by the jerks on this messageboard amazes me.

I am reminded of my childhood----when the joke in my school regarding
equal rights was "the mentally retarded have a right to equal representation
in Harvard law school"

 

[AVG-JOE]

The declaration of Israel was : 'Establishing of a Jewish Democratic State in Israel, and be named Israel'
But you seem to know how to define me better than myself, go ahead, define Jewish.
P.S. Welcome back Amity, your nonsense were missing, I guess now that Gaza is under Israeli Humanitarian truce you find a good time to show up and convince us otherwise.

Dude... I have no clue how to define Jewish - nor do I want to have one.

I'm hung up on 'democracy' in a state with an 'official religion'.

It's impossible, no?

i'm going to go back to what i said before and ask why this only ever comes up with the one jewish state the size of new jersey and not with the dozen muslim countries.

israel IS a democracy. that does not mean they have to allow themselves to be overrun by people whose only goal is its destruction.

If one of the primary responsibilities of a democratic government is to protect the rights of the minority, isn't 'Religious Democracy' a conflict of interest?

I have to admit, in reading my own question, the assumption that a democratic government has any interest in protecting the rights of the minorities at all, let alone treating that as a primary goal is a stretch.


Weird. There's a new appreciation for the concepts behind republicanism.



I suppose that a Jewish Democracy is not only possible, but between a republic and a democracy, the democracy is more likely to survive the adoption of a national religion.

... and to the republic, for which it stands!​

 

[flacaltenn]

Avg-Joe

The fallacy of the OP is to equate a nation as a refuge for Jews with a Theocracy..
Arabs have served in the Knesset (as previously noted) and have full citizenship contrary
to the propaganda that gets spewed in this forum. If there is a Theocracy in Israel, most Jews
would be unaware of it. Because the Orthodox don't even accept that most Jews in Israel are
religious enough for their standards.

When the Russian influx of refugees came in the 90s, many of them had no experience with religious practice. And the Israeli left is almost as secular as most Western left-wings are..

So before you go equating Jewish Identity with theocratic doctrine built into the government of Israel, you're gonna have to show me what legislation and practices come even close to imposing religious doctrine on its citizens.. I've been on business to Israel several times. It's clear that many multi-generation Arabs are fully integrated and supportive of the govt. Lots of Arab shopkeepers and merchants.

 

[flacaltenn]

Israeli Arabs: We Do Not Want to Live in Palestinian State


Another poll by Professor Sammy Smooha of the University of Haifa showed that three-quarters of Israeli Arabs believe Arab representatives should deal with daily issues and not the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

The poll also showed that over the past ten years, Israeli Arabs have become more extreme in their views toward Israel and its Jewish majority.

Professor Smooha said that Israeli Arabs are interested in receiving the benefits that the state provides them – stability, democracy, services and so on. The Arab leadership is more critical of Israel than the Arab public, which is "much more pragmatic than their leaders," he explained.

The Knesset has 120 members, 12 of whom are Arabs. Some of the Arab parliamentarians have over the past two decades acted and spoken in a way that has caused damage to the interests of the 1.5 million Arab citizens of Israel.

They are first and foremost responsible for radicalizing a large number of Israeli Arabs and turning them against the state.

These parliamentarians have, in fact, spent more time defending the interests of the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip than those of their voters.

A Knesset member who openly identifies with Fatah or Hamas or Hezbollah is responsible for the situation that many Israeli Jews today see Israeli Arabs as a "fifth column" and an "enemy from within."

These Knesset members are fully aware that they would lose most of their privileges under most Arab regimes -- the real reason why they are strongly opposed to the latest proposal.

Seems like Arab Israelis need to be asked whether they'd rather live in your imaginary Theocracy in Israel or under the control of Fatah or Hamas.. When 10% of your Congress is a protected minority of Arabs --- Is that still a Jewish State? Yup.. But not in the way you think of that term..
Choices of governments in that part of the world are REALLY REALLY bleak my bud..

 

[amity1844]

My opinion about talking to the locals, looking back to my most recent visit (which was not recent at all...) is that I truly had to get to know someone pretty darn well before they would express a non-approved opinion. Back then Israel was still trying to deny that there were no such things as Palestinians, using the P-word could land one in jail, flying a P-flag could land one in jail. I didn't try to coax honest opinions out of Palestinians. Why should they risk their butts to be honest with me? Reading between the lines was obligatory.

And I would definitely NOT have asked any so-called "Israeli Arab" to incriminate themselves! That would be like asking blacks in the 1960s South what they thought of Jim Crow. All you could possibly hope to get would be trouble for someone else. Israel is NOT that much of a democracy!!

I vividly remember one Israeli assuring me that the people of the west bank were "our Arabs," much nicer than in Lebanon. I did find one Christian guy from Bethlehem who was willing to talk confidentially with me, took me home for dinner with his family even.

 

[Indeependent]

(which was not recent at all...)

Well, that's a mouthful.
We talking 30-40 years ago?

 

[amity1844]

Israeli Arabs: We Do Not Want to Live in Palestinian State


Another poll by Professor Sammy Smooha of the University of Haifa showed that three-quarters of Israeli Arabs believe Arab representatives should deal with daily issues and not the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

The poll also showed that over the past ten years, Israeli Arabs have become more extreme in their views toward Israel and its Jewish majority.

Professor Smooha said that Israeli Arabs are interested in receiving the benefits that the state provides them – stability, democracy, services and so on. The Arab leadership is more critical of Israel than the Arab public, which is "much more pragmatic than their leaders," he explained.

The Knesset has 120 members, 12 of whom are Arabs. Some of the Arab parliamentarians have over the past two decades acted and spoken in a way that has caused damage to the interests of the 1.5 million Arab citizens of Israel.

They are first and foremost responsible for radicalizing a large number of Israeli Arabs and turning them against the state.

These parliamentarians have, in fact, spent more time defending the interests of the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip than those of their voters.

A Knesset member who openly identifies with Fatah or Hamas or Hezbollah is responsible for the situation that many Israeli Jews today see Israeli Arabs as a "fifth column" and an "enemy from within."

These Knesset members are fully aware that they would lose most of their privileges under most Arab regimes -- the real reason why they are strongly opposed to the latest proposal.

Seems like Arab Israelis need to be asked whether they'd rather live in your imaginary Theocracy in Israel or under the control of Fatah or Hamas.. When 10% of your Congress is a protected minority of Arabs --- Is that still a Jewish State? Yup.. But not in the way you think of that term..
Choices of governments in that part of the world are REALLY REALLY bleak my bud..

That is interesting and would love to have a link or citation on the study.

I doubt Israeli Arabs know much about either Hamas or Fateh. The only info they typically get about either is typically through Israel (and therefore b.s.). It used to be the case that Arab radio stations would be jammed in Israel! Couldn't find Arab newspapers. So basically they had little alternative but to buy Israel's line on many issues. I'll bet if the question was more legitimate, like "Would you like to be self-determining" they would likely answer very differently.

I am a bit astonished that there are only 12 Palestinian Knesset members! Arabs are 21% of the population, with only 10% of the representation.

I also find it odd that the Title of your article is disputed by the content of your article! "We don't want to live in a Palestinian state." is not what the article says! Its a red herring of a title.

 

[amity1844]

(which was not recent at all...)

Well, that's a mouthful.
We talking 30-40 years ago?

That's right, about 35 years ago.

You know, I have got to say I love the internet for this reason..... you can find people who are, because of anonymity, willing to talk. World's a village now. That separation that used to exist between Palestinians "inside" and "outside" no longer can be maintained.

 

[amity1844]

Dude... I have no clue how to define Jewish - nor do I want to have one.

I'm hung up on 'democracy' in a state with an 'official religion'.

It's impossible, no?

i'm going to go back to what i said before and ask why this only ever comes up with the one jewish state the size of new jersey and not with the dozen muslim countries.

israel IS a democracy. that does not mean they have to allow themselves to be overrun by people whose only goal is its destruction.

If one of the primary responsibilities of a democratic government is to protect the rights of the minority, isn't 'Religious Democracy' a conflict of interest?

I have to admit, in reading my own question, the assumption that a democratic government has any interest in protecting the rights of the minorities at all, let alone treating that as a primary goal is a stretch.


Weird. There's a new appreciation for the concepts behind republicanism.



I suppose that a Jewish Democracy is not only possible, but between a republic and a democracy, the democracy is more likely to survive the adoption of a national religion.

... and to the republic, for which it stands!​

I love what you are saying, but I want to suggest an alternative.

I don't view Israel as a theocracy at all. It is an ethnocracy.

Israel uses a religious justification at every possible turn. But truly its a secular state. The legal system for example is NOT consistent with the Torah.

And just as well.