Jeremiah v CMike: Jesus the Jewish Messiah or Jewish/Christian God
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Hi Jeremiah,
I am a little short of time, but I wanted to give the principles of why Jesus is not the Jewish messiah or a jewish god based on the Torah.
1) G-D said in numerous passages that there is only one G-D. That he is one. That we should only look to him as our savoiur. That to treat any other being or person as a divine being is the same as idol worship.
2) Jesus can't be Jewish messiah because he did not fulfill the messianic prophesis. The reason G-D made the prophesies is so that we know who the messiah is when he comes.
They are in Michah 4:3 and Ezekiel 37
- World peace
- All the jews coming to Israel
- All the staying in Israel
- All the nations worshipping one G-D
- The temple in jerusalem being rebuilt and standing forever.
- One unified king of Israel
These things didn't occur yet, hence no messiah yet.
3) Jesus said that he fulfilled the law, and supposedly changed the law. There is the supposed addition of the New Testament, the Christian bible.
However, in Deuteronomy 13 G-D says.
1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.
So G-D made it clear that jews can not accept any additions nor subtractions from the law.
For all these reasons it is impossible, based on the Torah, that jesus was the jewish messiah, and even more impossible that he was some sort of divine being.
Hi Jeri,
Thank you for your thoughtful responses.
Genesis 1:26
26. And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and they shall rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heaven and over the animals and over all the earth and over all the creeping things that creep upon the earth."
Who was G-D talking to? He was talking to the angels.
Jews learn a lesson in this. That when you do something you should share credit. A lot of the Torah teaches moral lessons.
Let's say you are a salesman with a secretary, and you say "we just landed the Miller account". It's you that actually closed the deal, however, being a nice fellow you share the credit.
However, G-D made it clear that it was only him that did the creating.
27. And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
It says G-D created man. Not G-D and jesus, not G-D and "The World". Just G-D. It's only G-D that does the creating.
"Now lets look at His Spoken Word which is how God created - see Genesis 1: 3 And God said, Let there be light. God spoke the Word at the time of creation in Genesis 1. Who is the Word? That is the question in this debate. Who is He? Is He the Jewish Messiah? Why do Christians call him The Word? In the first chapter of John in the New Testament which is the second half of the bible we read this: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made and without him nothing has been made. In him was the life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it."
3. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
4. And God saw the light that it was good, and God separated between the light and between the darkness.
And I am unsure why you are saying "The Word" is some seperate entity based on the Torah. Where do you see that exactly?
"Let's stop there. In the book of John in the New Testament, John is telling the reader that the Word that created what God spoke was Jesus. The power behind the Word --> Jesus<-- that God Spoke was the Spirit of God. Therein God in 3 distinct parts, roles of the Godhead. G-d the Father, G-d the Son, G-d the Holy Spirit. This is why God says in Genesis 1:26 Let US make man in OUR image and in OUR likeness"
The problem with that is that G-D disagrees.
"Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut) "
G-D says he is one. Not one in separate parts. He is "One."
Another passage
I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)
I can post at least 20 different passages where G-D says there is only him, and no other G-D in any form.
I understand your point that christians consider jesus and god to be one.
However, jesus himself said he prayed to G-D. He said you have to go through him to get to G-D. Jesus made it clear that he considered himself a seperate entity.
"Addressing your second point, Mike. While I agree with you that some of these prophecies haven't been fulfilled yet, I can give you 300 prophecies that have been fulfilled and meet the requirements of Messiah. Jesus meets every single one. ( there are over 300 but for the sake of time... 300 should be sufficient ) We are not at the end here yet so obviously some things have not yet been fulfilled but will be."
The only prophesies he fulfilled is that he wrote a donkey and he was born in Bethlehem.
Other than that he didn't fulfill the prophesies.
The point of having the prophesis is that we would know who the messiah is. There is a test. Jesus didn't meet it.
In fact, when the messiah comes, the temple in jerusalem is to be rebuilt and stand forever. Instead the opposite occurred. The temple in jerusalem was destroyed shortly after jesus' execution. The opposite of the prophesy occurred.
"In my next reponse I will begin to go into detail of each one but in the work and person of Jesus Christ there is a fulfillment of the Levitical Feasts ( Leviticus 23 ) which I can list here for you now:
Passover ( april ) - Death of Christ ( 1 Corinthian 5 : 7 ) fulfilled in New testament
Unleavened bread ( april ) Holy Walk ( 1 Corinthians 5: 8 )
First Fruits ( april ) Resurrection ( 1 Corinthians 15:23 )
Pentacost ( June ) Outpouring of the Holy Spirit ( Acts 1: 5 and 2: 4 )
Trumpets ( Sept ) Israel's regathering ( Matthew 24: 31 )
Atonement ( Sept ) Cleansing by Christ (Romans 11: 26 )
Tabernacles ( Sept ) Rest and Reunion with Christ ( Zechariah 14: 16 - 18 ) "
I am not sure what you mean by "fulfilled"? The commandments are not supposed to be "fulfilled. G-D said for the jews to keep the Passover generation after generation.
The Day of Attonement occurs each year. They aren't supposed to be "fulfilled". They have a purpose.
I hope te Ezekeiel 37 prophesies and Michah 4:3 prophesy are fulfilled soon. Then we will know that the messiah is here.
However, since they haven't been fuflilled yet, jews know the messiah hasn't come yet.
And remember you can't add nor subtract from the law.
Also other than Passover, I am not sure what you mean by Leviticual Feasts?
As far as the NT stating not to add or subtract from it, that is fine and good.
However, jews can not accept the Christian bible because they are told not to add or subtract from the Torah.
Hi Jeri,
Thank you for your thoughtful responses.
Genesis 1:26
26. And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and they shall rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heaven and over the animals and over all the earth and over all the creeping things that creep upon the earth."
Who was G-D talking to? He was talking to the angels.
Jews learn a lesson in this. That when you do something you should share credit. A lot of the Torah teaches moral lessons.
Let's say you are a salesman with a secretary, and you say "we just landed the Miller account". It's you that actually closed the deal, however, being a nice fellow you share the credit.
However, G-D made it clear that it was only him that did the creating.
27. And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
It says G-D created man. Not G-D and jesus, not G-D and "The World". Just G-D. It's only G-D that does the creating.
"Now lets look at His Spoken Word which is how God created - see Genesis 1: 3 And God said, Let there be light. God spoke the Word at the time of creation in Genesis 1. Who is the Word? That is the question in this debate. Who is He? Is He the Jewish Messiah? Why do Christians call him The Word? In the first chapter of John in the New Testament which is the second half of the bible we read this: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made and without him nothing has been made. In him was the life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it."
3. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
4. And God saw the light that it was good, and God separated between the light and between the darkness.
And I am unsure why you are saying "The Word" is some seperate entity based on the Torah. Where do you see that exactly?
"Let's stop there. In the book of John in the New Testament, John is telling the reader that the Word that created what God spoke was Jesus. The power behind the Word --> Jesus<-- that God Spoke was the Spirit of God. Therein God in 3 distinct parts, roles of the Godhead. G-d the Father, G-d the Son, G-d the Holy Spirit. This is why God says in Genesis 1:26 Let US make man in OUR image and in OUR likeness"
The problem with that is that G-D disagrees.
"Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut) "
G-D says he is one. Not one in separate parts. He is "One."
Another passage
I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)
I can post at least 20 different passages where G-D says there is only him, and no other G-D in any form.
I understand your point that christians consider jesus and god to be one.
However, jesus himself said he prayed to G-D. He said you have to go through him to get to G-D. Jesus made it clear that he considered himself a seperate entity.
"Addressing your second point, Mike. While I agree with you that some of these prophecies haven't been fulfilled yet, I can give you 300 prophecies that have been fulfilled and meet the requirements of Messiah. Jesus meets every single one. ( there are over 300 but for the sake of time... 300 should be sufficient ) We are not at the end here yet so obviously some things have not yet been fulfilled but will be."
The only prophesies he fulfilled is that he wrote a donkey and he was born in Bethlehem.
Other than that he didn't fulfill the prophesies.
The point of having the prophesis is that we would know who the messiah is. There is a test. Jesus didn't meet it.
In fact, when the messiah comes, the temple in jerusalem is to be rebuilt and stand forever. Instead the opposite occurred. The temple in jerusalem was destroyed shortly after jesus' execution. The opposite of the prophesy occurred.
"In my next reponse I will begin to go into detail of each one but in the work and person of Jesus Christ there is a fulfillment of the Levitical Feasts ( Leviticus 23 ) which I can list here for you now:
Passover ( april ) - Death of Christ ( 1 Corinthian 5 : 7 ) fulfilled in New testament
Unleavened bread ( april ) Holy Walk ( 1 Corinthians 5: 8 )
First Fruits ( april ) Resurrection ( 1 Corinthians 15:23 )
Pentacost ( June ) Outpouring of the Holy Spirit ( Acts 1: 5 and 2: 4 )
Trumpets ( Sept ) Israel's regathering ( Matthew 24: 31 )
Atonement ( Sept ) Cleansing by Christ (Romans 11: 26 )
Tabernacles ( Sept ) Rest and Reunion with Christ ( Zechariah 14: 16 - 18 ) "
I am not sure what you mean by "fulfilled"? The commandments are not supposed to be "fulfilled. G-D said for the jews to keep the Passover generation after generation.
The Day of Attonement occurs each year. They aren't supposed to be "fulfilled". They have a purpose.
I hope te Ezekeiel 37 prophesies and Michah 4:3 prophesy are fulfilled soon. Then we will know that the messiah is here.
However, since they haven't been fuflilled yet, jews know the messiah hasn't come yet.
And remember you can't add nor subtract from the law.
Also other than Passover, I am not sure what you mean by Leviticual Feasts?
As far as the NT stating not to add or subtract from it, that is fine and good.
However, jews can not accept the Christian bible because they are told not to add or subtract from the Torah.
Hi, Mike! I just answered every single one of your points and when I tried to post it, it said I didn't have permission! lol! Oh my gosh. That was an hours worth of writing and work - gone - I will write the reply and copy it for later on. Sorry! - Jeremiah
----------------------------------Hi Jeri,
Thank you for your thoughtful responses.
-------------------------------------
Thank you, Mike.
-------------------------------------
Genesis 1:26
26. And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and they shall rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heaven and over the animals and over all the earth and over all the creeping things that creep upon the earth."
Who was G-D talking to? He was talking to the angels.
-------------------------------------
reply from Jeri-
This presents a problem for me because of the content of the scripture. Let US make Man in OUR image. Angels are not created in the image of G-d. Not according to the scriptures that describe angelic beings. Referring to Ezekiels visions and Isaiahs. Not to mention that G-d doesn't share His Glory with anyone even angelic beings. He said he wouldn't share His Glory and that we should not touch it.
--------------------------------
Jews learn a lesson in this. That when you do something you should share credit. A lot of the Torah teaches moral lessons.
---------------------------------
reply from Jeri:
Yes, and I agree with the teachings of the Torah. I've learned more from the Jews about the Torah than I ever could have from a Pastor. There is a mystical element to the Torah in my opinion the book is Divine. It is the Holy Word of G-d. But G-d sharing credit for the creation of man with angels? I think I find it easier to believe he was conversing with Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
--------------------------------------
Let's say you are a salesman with a secretary, and you say "we just landed the Miller account". It's you that actually closed the deal, however, being a nice fellow you share the credit.
---------------------------------------
reply from Jeri:
You don't have to convince me, Mike! I am a prospector who believes in the beauty of networking and credit sharing! It is a good mitzvah. Is that the right word? Good deed?
However, G-D made it clear that it was only him that did the creating.
-------------------------------
reply from Jeri
Now this is where I'm lost, Mike.
If he is speaking to angels as you say and he said Let US create man in Our image then he is inviting someone to assist him in Creating mankind. I would be more persuaded to believe it was Jesus and the Holy Spirit he was speaking to.
--------------------------------------------------
27. And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
It says G-D created man. Not G-D and jesus, not G-D and "The World". Just G-D. It's only G-D that does the creating.
"Now lets look at His Spoken Word which is how God created - see Genesis 1: 3 And God said, Let there be light. God spoke the Word at the time of creation in Genesis 1. Who is the Word? That is the question in this debate. Who is He? Is He the Jewish Messiah? Why do Christians call him The Word? In the first chapter of John in the New Testament which is the second half of the bible we read this: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made and without him nothing has been made. In him was the life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it."
3. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
4. And God saw the light that it was good, and God separated between the light and between the darkness.
And I am unsure why you are saying "The Word" is some seperate entity based on the Torah. Where do you see that exactly?
-----------------------------------
Jeri replies:
I don't. God SPOKE - His creative power was in the WORD he SPOKE. It aligns perfectly with John Chapter one .......In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. All things were created by Him and nothing was made without Him. This is referring to Jesus Christ. Known as the Word.
-------------------------------------------
"Let's stop there. In the book of John in the New Testament, John is telling the reader that the Word that created what God spoke was Jesus. The power behind the Word --> Jesus<-- that God Spoke was the Spirit of God. Therein God in 3 distinct parts, roles of the Godhead. G-d the Father, G-d the Son, G-d the Holy Spirit. This is why God says in Genesis 1:26 Let US make man in OUR image and in OUR likeness"
The problem with that is that G-D disagrees.
"Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut) "
G-D says he is one. Not one in separate parts. He is "One."
-----------------------------------------------------
Jeremiah replies:
True and we don't walk around saying I am a spirit who sent my body to the store today because my Soul commanded it to. We are a trichotomy but we do not refer to ourselves in three parts and neither does G-d. Nevertheless, we are body, spirit and soul and as a Christian I believe God is G-d the Father ( you are his first children ) G-d the Son - Jesus - G-d the Holy Spirit - the distinctive roles, God walked with Adam in the cool of the day.. then Jesus comes to earth and dwells among us, then Jesus ascends to heaven but what does he promise first? The Holy Spirit. He is sending the Comforter. This is the Spirit of God that dwells within the believers on the earth today. This is why Christians refer to their bodies as the temple of the Holy Spirit. This is why we also say to be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD. It is our spirit and soul that will be present before G-d. Not our body that will return to the dust.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Another passage
I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)
I can post at least 20 different passages where G-D says there is only him, and no other G-D in any form.
--------------------------------
Jeri replies:
And I would agree with every single one of them. G-d is One. There is only One G-d.
--------------------------------
I understand your point that christians consider jesus and god to be one.
---------------------------------
Jeri replies:
I believe Jesus said it best when he prayed that G-d would make them One even as He and the Father were One. One as in Unity. In Union with each other.
-------------------------------------
However, jesus himself said he prayed to G-D. He said you have to go through him to get to G-D. Jesus made it clear that he considered himself a seperate entity.
-------------------------------------
reply from Jeri:
That is correct. When I pray to G-d of Israel I pray in the name of Jesus Christ but I am addressing G-d of Israel. My heavenly Father. The Holy Spirit helps me to pray because on my own I would not know what to pray for. He is my guide on getting the Mind of G-d on a matter so to speak. In my faith of Christianity.
---------------------------------
reply from Jeri:
"Addressing your second point, Mike. While I agree with you that some of these prophecies haven't been fulfilled yet, I can give you 300 prophecies that have been fulfilled and meet the requirements of Messiah. Jesus meets every single one. ( there are over 300 but for the sake of time... 300 should be sufficient ) We are not at the end here yet so obviously some things have not yet been fulfilled but will be."
The only prophesies he fulfilled is that he wrote a donkey and he was born in Bethlehem.
Other than that he didn't fulfill the prophesies.
----------------------------------------
reply from Jeri:
I've put the first set up of the prophecies of his birth but I have yet to post the prophecies concerning his ministry on earth or his death and resurrection. You may find some New Testament scriptures to be vague and not accept that as validation of a fulfillment of prophecy. That is fine. I am just offering what I think might give reason to investigate it further. Of course, there is the matter of the New Testament and verifying it as a valid source to base history from, etc. I have thought about that too.
The point of having the prophesy is that we would know who the messiah is. There is a test. Jesus didn't meet it.
In fact, when the messiah comes, the temple in jerusalem is to be rebuilt and stand forever. Instead the opposite occurred. The temple in jerusalem was destroyed shortly after jesus' execution. The opposite of the prophesy occurred.
------------------------------------------------
reply from Jeri:
Hold that thought. I will share something later about exactly what Jesus did prophesy concerning the temple.
"In my next reponse I will begin to go into detail of each one but in the work and person of Jesus Christ there is a fulfillment of the Levitical Feasts ( Leviticus 23 ) which I can list here for you now:
Passover ( april ) - Death of Christ ( 1 Corinthian 5 : 7 ) fulfilled in New testament
Unleavened bread ( april ) Holy Walk ( 1 Corinthians 5: 8 )
First Fruits ( april ) Resurrection ( 1 Corinthians 15:23 )
Pentacost ( June ) Outpouring of the Holy Spirit ( Acts 1: 5 and 2: 4 )
Trumpets ( Sept ) Israel's regathering ( Matthew 24: 31 )
Atonement ( Sept ) Cleansing by Christ (Romans 11: 26 )
Tabernacles ( Sept ) Rest and Reunion with Christ ( Zechariah 14: 16 - 18 ) "
I am not sure what you mean by "fulfilled"? The commandments are not supposed to be "fulfilled. G-D said for the jews to keep the Passover generation after generation.
------------------------------------------
reply from Jeri:
Yes, my point is that Jesus death fulfills the meaning of the Passover - the blood of the lamb that was put over the doorposts in Goshen when Pharoah was warned that the angel of death would be coming - the Jews were protected from death by the blood of the Lamb. It signifies your eternal lives Christ paid for at the Cross. You couldn't keep the law so he did it for you. At the cross. It's finished. ( fulfilled) According to my intepretation of scripture - the Passover would signify the perfect lamb of God who was slain to take away the sins of the world. The remission of sins. He represents the Atonement in that he is the scapegoat - he hung on that cross in place of Barrabus. The peoples will. .. with that Pilates wife who had a bad dream and had warned him to have nothing to do with the crucifixion of Jesus so he said, His blood be upon your hands. He wanted no part of it as he feared his wifes dream. There is much more as I can easily identify Christ in every single book of the Torah - he is depicted - but that would depend on how much time you've got. jk. note** Jesus had to go to the cross. Without the cross there wouldn't have been an atonement for us according to my faith.
-------------------------------------------------
The Day of Attonement occurs each year. They aren't supposed to be "fulfilled". They have a purpose.
-----------------------------------------------
Jeri replies: Yes, I know, they are a picture of Jesus Christ and are to be remembered ( I'm speaking from my own pov here, Mike, not a Jewish pov )
I hope te Ezekeiel 37 prophesies and Michah 4:3 prophesy are fulfilled soon. Then we will know that the messiah is here.
---------------------------------------------------
Jeri replies: Yes, I know you are expecting your Messiah. Many preparations are under way.
-------------------------------------------------------
However, since they haven't been fuflilled yet, jews know the messiah hasn't come yet.
-----------------------------------------------------
Jeri replies: Well read some of the fulfillments to prophecy and see if it looks familiar anyhow. You might recognize something.
---------------------------------------------------
And remember you can't add nor subtract from the law.
---------------------------------------------------
Not one jot or one tittle! How well I know!
------------------------------------------------------------------
Also other than Passover, I am not sure what you mean by Leviticual Feasts?
---------------------------------------------------
reply from Jeri : I got off track with that and probably should not have put it in. Sorry.
--------------------------------------------------------
As far as the NT stating not to add or subtract from it, that is fine and good.
-----------------------------------------------------
If we add to the Gospel we will have the plagues mentioned in the book added to us and if we take away from the Gospel we will lose our salvation. That's separation from G-d eternally. Enough to make me shake in my boots.
----------------------------------------------------------
However, jews can not accept the Christian bible because they are told not to add or subtract from the Torah.
Hi Jeri,
I do not believe for a split second G-d would ever throw a Jewish person who loves him into hell for obeying His commands to not add to or take away from His Book. Your obedience is an act of true worship. G-d is not impressed with loud songs and feigned praise from false lips. He is looking to be worshiped in spirit and in truth and your desire to honor G-d by only accepting His Word as you have received it is a sign of it, Mike. You have my respect. - Jeremiah note to Mike** I am not used to using this quote / response feature and most of your replies are in the box above. Sorry about that.
I very much appreciate your kind word. You are a credit to your religion.
I truely believe that if we all kept to the tenets of our religion the world would be a much better place.
Maybe pick a color other than blue and that way we can make it easier to have a discussion?
Hi Jeri,
Thank you for your thoughtful responses.
Genesis 1:26
26. And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and they shall rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heaven and over the animals and over all the earth and over all the creeping things that creep upon the earth."
Who was G-D talking to? He was talking to the angels.
Jews learn a lesson in this. That when you do something you should share credit. A lot of the Torah teaches moral lessons.
Let's say you are a salesman with a secretary, and you say "we just landed the Miller account". It's you that actually closed the deal, however, being a nice fellow you share the credit.
However, G-D made it clear that it was only him that did the creating.
27. And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
It says G-D created man. Not G-D and jesus, not G-D and "The World". Just G-D. It's only G-D that does the creating.
"Now lets look at His Spoken Word which is how God created - see Genesis 1: 3 And God said, Let there be light. God spoke the Word at the time of creation in Genesis 1. Who is the Word? That is the question in this debate. Who is He? Is He the Jewish Messiah? Why do Christians call him The Word? In the first chapter of John in the New Testament which is the second half of the bible we read this: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made and without him nothing has been made. In him was the life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it."
3. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
4. And God saw the light that it was good, and God separated between the light and between the darkness.
And I am unsure why you are saying "The Word" is some seperate entity based on the Torah. Where do you see that exactly?
"Let's stop there. In the book of John in the New Testament, John is telling the reader that the Word that created what God spoke was Jesus. The power behind the Word --> Jesus<-- that God Spoke was the Spirit of God. Therein God in 3 distinct parts, roles of the Godhead. G-d the Father, G-d the Son, G-d the Holy Spirit. This is why God says in Genesis 1:26 Let US make man in OUR image and in OUR likeness"
The problem with that is that G-D disagrees.
"Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut) "
G-D says he is one. Not one in separate parts. He is "One."
Another passage
I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)
I can post at least 20 different passages where G-D says there is only him, and no other G-D in any form.
I understand your point that christians consider jesus and god to be one.
However, jesus himself said he prayed to G-D. He said you have to go through him to get to G-D. Jesus made it clear that he considered himself a seperate entity.
"Addressing your second point, Mike. While I agree with you that some of these prophecies haven't been fulfilled yet, I can give you 300 prophecies that have been fulfilled and meet the requirements of Messiah. Jesus meets every single one. ( there are over 300 but for the sake of time... 300 should be sufficient ) We are not at the end here yet so obviously some things have not yet been fulfilled but will be."
The only prophesies he fulfilled is that he wrote a donkey and he was born in Bethlehem.
Other than that he didn't fulfill the prophesies.
The point of having the prophesis is that we would know who the messiah is. There is a test. Jesus didn't meet it.
In fact, when the messiah comes, the temple in jerusalem is to be rebuilt and stand forever. Instead the opposite occurred. The temple in jerusalem was destroyed shortly after jesus' execution. The opposite of the prophesy occurred.
"In my next reponse I will begin to go into detail of each one but in the work and person of Jesus Christ there is a fulfillment of the Levitical Feasts ( Leviticus 23 ) which I can list here for you now:
Passover ( april ) - Death of Christ ( 1 Corinthian 5 : 7 ) fulfilled in New testament
Unleavened bread ( april ) Holy Walk ( 1 Corinthians 5: 8 )
First Fruits ( april ) Resurrection ( 1 Corinthians 15:23 )
Pentacost ( June ) Outpouring of the Holy Spirit ( Acts 1: 5 and 2: 4 )
Trumpets ( Sept ) Israel's regathering ( Matthew 24: 31 )
Atonement ( Sept ) Cleansing by Christ (Romans 11: 26 )
Tabernacles ( Sept ) Rest and Reunion with Christ ( Zechariah 14: 16 - 18 ) "
I am not sure what you mean by "fulfilled"? The commandments are not supposed to be "fulfilled. G-D said for the jews to keep the Passover generation after generation.
The Day of Attonement occurs each year. They aren't supposed to be "fulfilled". They have a purpose.
I hope te Ezekeiel 37 prophesies and Michah 4:3 prophesy are fulfilled soon. Then we will know that the messiah is here.
However, since they haven't been fuflilled yet, jews know the messiah hasn't come yet.
And remember you can't add nor subtract from the law.
Also other than Passover, I am not sure what you mean by Leviticual Feasts?
As far as the NT stating not to add or subtract from it, that is fine and good.
However, jews can not accept the Christian bible because they are told not to add or subtract from the Torah.
Hi, Mike! I just answered every single one of your points and when I tried to post it, it said I didn't have permission! lol! Oh my gosh. That was an hours worth of writing and work - gone - I will write the reply and copy it for later on. Sorry! - Jeremiah
Maybe it was an act of G-D, just kidding.
Perhaps write it first in a word processing program, and then copy and paste.
I had to rewrite an email five times yesterday because of a server problem. It was very frustrating.
----------------------------------Hi Jeri,
Thank you for your thoughtful responses.
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Thank you, Mike.
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Genesis 1:26
26. And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and they shall rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heaven and over the animals and over all the earth and over all the creeping things that creep upon the earth."
Who was G-D talking to? He was talking to the angels.
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reply from Jeri-
This presents a problem for me because of the content of the scripture. Let US make Man in OUR image. Angels are not created in the image of G-d. Not according to the scriptures that describe angelic beings. Referring to Ezekiels visions and Isaiahs. Not to mention that G-d doesn't share His Glory with anyone even angelic beings. He said he wouldn't share His Glory and that we should not touch it.
Where exactly did G-D say he doesn't share his glory?
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Jews learn a lesson in this. That when you do something you should share credit. A lot of the Torah teaches moral lessons.
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reply from Jeri:
Yes, and I agree with the teachings of the Torah. I've learned more from the Jews about the Torah than I ever could have from a Pastor. There is a mystical element to the Torah in my opinion the book is Divine. It is the Holy Word of G-d. But G-d sharing credit for the creation of man with angels? I think I find it easier to believe he was conversing with Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Based on the Torah, G-D said that there is only him. Therefore, based on what G-D said there is no jesus or holy separate. G-D said he is one.
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Let's say you are a salesman with a secretary, and you say "we just landed the Miller account". It's you that actually closed the deal, however, being a nice fellow you share the credit.
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reply from Jeri:
You don't have to convince me, Mike! I am a prospector who believes in the beauty of networking and credit sharing! It is a good mitzvah. Is that the right word? Good deed?
However, G-D made it clear that it was only him that did the creating.
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reply from Jeri
Now this is where I'm lost, Mike.
If he is speaking to angels as you say and he said Let US create man in Our image then he is inviting someone to assist him in Creating mankind. I would be more persuaded to believe it was Jesus and the Holy Spirit he was speaking to.
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27. And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
It says G-D created man. Not G-D and jesus, not G-D and "The World". Just G-D. It's only G-D that does the creating.
"Now lets look at His Spoken Word which is how God created - see Genesis 1: 3 And God said, Let there be light. God spoke the Word at the time of creation in Genesis 1. Who is the Word? That is the question in this debate. Who is He? Is He the Jewish Messiah? Why do Christians call him The Word? In the first chapter of John in the New Testament which is the second half of the bible we read this: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made and without him nothing has been made. In him was the life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it."
3. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
4. And God saw the light that it was good, and God separated between the light and between the darkness.
And I am unsure why you are saying "The Word" is some seperate entity based on the Torah. Where do you see that exactly?
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Jeri replies:
I don't. God SPOKE - His creative power was in the WORD he SPOKE. It aligns perfectly with John Chapter one .......In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. All things were created by Him and nothing was made without Him. This is referring to Jesus Christ. Known as the Word.
If you speak is what you are saying a separate entity?
I do not get the creation regarding wha he says.
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"Let's stop there. In the book of John in the New Testament, John is telling the reader that the Word that created what God spoke was Jesus. The power behind the Word --> Jesus<-- that God Spoke was the Spirit of God. Therein God in 3 distinct parts, roles of the Godhead. G-d the Father, G-d the Son, G-d the Holy Spirit. This is why God says in Genesis 1:26 Let US make man in OUR image and in OUR likeness"
But G-D said that he wasn't in parts. He said he was one.
The problem with that is that G-D disagrees.
"Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut) "
G-D says he is one. Not one in separate parts. He is "One."
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Jeremiah replies:
True and we don't walk around saying I am a spirit who sent my body to the store today because my Soul commanded it to. We are a trichotomy but we do not refer to ourselves in three parts and neither does G-d. Nevertheless, we are body, spirit and soul and as a Christian I believe God is G-d the Father ( you are his first children ) G-d the Son - Jesus - G-d the Holy Spirit - the distinctive roles, God walked with Adam in the cool of the day.. then Jesus comes to earth and dwells among us, then Jesus ascends to heaven but what does he promise first? The Holy Spirit. He is sending the Comforter. This is the Spirit of God that dwells within the believers on the earth today. This is why Christians refer to their bodies as the temple of the Holy Spirit. This is why we also say to be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD. It is our spirit and soul that will be present before G-d. Not our body that will return to the dust.
Jesus said that he prayed to god, and that you have go through him to get to god. He mad himslf a seperate entity.
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Another passage
I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)
I can post at least 20 different passages where G-D says there is only him, and no other G-D in any form.
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Jeri replies:
And I would agree with every single one of them. G-d is One. There is only One G-d.
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I understand your point that christians consider jesus and god to be one.
They are still seperate entities.
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Jeri replies:
I believe Jesus said it best when he prayed that G-d would make them One even as He and the Father were One. One as in Unity. In Union with each other.
We can say that as a nation we are all one. However, we are still made up of about three hundred million entities.
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However, jesus himself said he prayed to G-D. He said you have to go through him to get to G-D. Jesus made it clear that he considered himself a seperate entity.
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reply from Jeri:
That is correct. When I pray to G-d of Israel I pray in the name of Jesus Christ but I am addressing G-d of Israel. My heavenly Father. The Holy Spirit helps me to pray because on my own I would not know what to pray for. He is my guide on getting the Mind of G-d on a matter so to speak. In my faith of Christianity.
You just said yourself that you pray in the nameof jesus, but to G-D. Therefore, 1+1=2
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reply from Jeri:
"Addressing your second point, Mike. While I agree with you that some of these prophecies haven't been fulfilled yet, I can give you 300 prophecies that have been fulfilled and meet the requirements of Messiah. Jesus meets every single one. ( there are over 300 but for the sake of time... 300 should be sufficient ) We are not at the end here yet so obviously some things have not yet been fulfilled but will be."
The only prophesies he fulfilled is that he wrote a donkey and he was born in Bethlehem.
Other than that he didn't fulfill the prophesies.
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reply from Jeri:
I've put the first set up of the prophecies of his birth but I have yet to post the prophecies concerning his ministry on earth or his death and resurrection. You may find some New Testament scriptures to be vague and not accept that as validation of a fulfillment of prophecy. That is fine. I am just offering what I think might give reason to investigate it further. Of course, there is the matter of the New Testament and verifying it as a valid source to base history from, etc. I have thought about that too.
It is true. Posting them from the NT really wouldn't mean much to me.
The point of having the prophesy is that we would know who the messiah is. There is a test. Jesus didn't meet it.
In fact, when the messiah comes, the temple in jerusalem is to be rebuilt and stand forever. Instead the opposite occurred. The temple in jerusalem was destroyed shortly after jesus' execution. The opposite of the prophesy occurred.
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reply from Jeri:
Hold that thought. I will share something later about exactly what Jesus did prophesy concerning the temple.
Will do.
"In my next reponse I will begin to go into detail of each one but in the work and person of Jesus Christ there is a fulfillment of the Levitical Feasts ( Leviticus 23 ) which I can list here for you now:
Passover ( april ) - Death of Christ ( 1 Corinthian 5 : 7 ) fulfilled in New testament
Unleavened bread ( april ) Holy Walk ( 1 Corinthians 5: 8 )
First Fruits ( april ) Resurrection ( 1 Corinthians 15:23 )
Pentacost ( June ) Outpouring of the Holy Spirit ( Acts 1: 5 and 2: 4 )
Trumpets ( Sept ) Israel's regathering ( Matthew 24: 31 )
Atonement ( Sept ) Cleansing by Christ (Romans 11: 26 )
Tabernacles ( Sept ) Rest and Reunion with Christ ( Zechariah 14: 16 - 18 ) "
I am not sure what you mean by "fulfilled"? The commandments are not supposed to be "fulfilled. G-D said for the jews to keep the Passover generation after generation.
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reply from Jeri:
Yes, my point is that Jesus death fulfills the meaning of the Passover - the blood of the lamb that was put over the doorposts in Goshen when Pharoah was warned that the angel of death would be coming - the Jews were protected from death by the blood of the Lamb.
The blood of the lamb didn't protect the jews. It was G-D that protected the jew.
The point of putting the blood on the posts was for it to be a test. That the jews who would believe in G-D as their savior would be protected.
It didn't necessarily have to be blood. G-d could have made any test. It could be to put two Xs together. The blood itself didn't mean anything. It was just the test that G-D gave.
It signifies your eternal lives Christ paid for at the Cross. You couldn't keep the law so he did it for you.
Why do you think jews can't keep the law.
Humans aren't perfect. G-D doesn't expect the jews to keep all the laws perfectly. He designed us. After our death our good deeds vs or bad deeds are weighed and G-D decides where to put us in the World to Come.
At the cross. It's finished. ( fulfilled) According to my intepretation of scripture - the Passover would signify the perfect lamb of God who was slain to take away the sins of the world. The remission of sins. He represents the Atonement in that he is the scapegoat - he hung on that cross in place of Barrabus. The peoples will. .. with that Pilates wife who had a bad dream and had warned him to have nothing to do with the crucifixion of Jesus so he said, His blood be upon your hands. He wanted no part of it as he feared his wifes dream. There is much more as I can easily identify Christ in every single book of the Torah - he is depicted - but that would depend on how much time you've got. jk. note** Jesus had to go to the cross. Without the cross there wouldn't have been an atonement for us according to my faith.
I you ever read Leviticus you will see that G-D was a micromanager.
He gave the exact measurements of how the Mishkan, the holy area where sacrifices were to be made was to be created.
He said exactly what the priests should be wearing. G-D even says where the ashes from the sacrifices should go.
Don't you think that if G-d truely created this "son" and the other part of the christian theology we would have spelled it out clearly in the Torah.
Why wouldn't we? G-D went to great lengths to go into small detail of what he expected from the jewish people.
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The Day of Attonement occurs each year. They aren't supposed to be "fulfilled". They have a purpose.
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Jeri replies: Yes, I know, they are a picture of Jesus Christ and are to be remembered ( I'm speaking from my own pov here, Mike, not a Jewish pov )
I know, but I am just saying what the Day of Attonement is.
I hope te Ezekeiel 37 prophesies and Michah 4:3 prophesy are fulfilled soon. Then we will know that the messiah is here.
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Jeri replies: Yes, I know you are expecting your Messiah. Many preparations are under way.
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However, since they haven't been fuflilled yet, jews know the messiah hasn't come yet.
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Jeri replies: Well read some of the fulfillments to prophecy and see if it looks familiar anyhow. You might recognize something.
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And remember you can't add nor subtract from the law.
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Not one jot or one tittle! How well I know!
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Also other than Passover, I am not sure what you mean by Leviticual Feasts?
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reply from Jeri : I got off track with that and probably should not have put it in. Sorry.
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As far as the NT stating not to add or subtract from it, that is fine and good.
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If we add to the Gospel we will have the plagues mentioned in the book added to us and if we take away from the Gospel we will lose our salvation. That's separation from G-d eternally. Enough to make me shake in my boots.
Then you understand why jews can't add the NT to the Torah?
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However, jews can not accept the Christian bible because they are told not to add or subtract from the Torah.