Janet Reno Dies

[MikeK]

Guy, that's horseshit. They knew they were ATF Agents. They even asked the undercover ATF Agent who had badly infiltrated them to go outside and talk them out of the raid.

I didn't say they didn't know the raiders were ATF. What I said is according to Texas Penal Law they had a right to defend themselves against the ATF agents' unlawful attempt to break in and arrest them.

Again, I find it amusing that the same wingnuts who will defend cops shooting unarmed black teens are making excuses for these nuts.

Specifically who are the "wingnuts" you are referring to? Why are you reluctant to name them?

As far as defending cops is concerned, I will defend any cop who justifiably uses lethal force, such as Ptl, Darrel Wilson (Ferguson, MO) who shot Mike Brown to death. Brown was a bullying scumbag who asked for what he got. Wilson had good cause and he did the world a favor by killing Brown, because Brown would have harmed a lot of weaker individuals if he'd been allowed to live a long life.

But I have no respect for trigger-happy cops who do things that give troublemakers something to raise hell about. Unnecessarily shooting unarmed Black teens provokes police assassinations in which the cops who are murdered probably are the kind who would not wrongfully use deadly force.

 

[MikeK]

Yes, but you see, here's the thing. The people who wrote those books didn't have the physical evidence. Multiple agencies (not just the FBI and ATF) investigated Waco and all of them concluded it was a mass suicide.

Without having read any of the books about the Waco Massacre you feel qualified to negatively criticize them.

 

[JoeB131]

Koresh was an FFL licensed firearms dealer, as was a number of other Davidians and they had an active mail-order business. Everything they sold was strictly legal. The reason BATF wanted to search their premises was the undercover's report that they were converting various semi-auto rifles into full auto. While I suspect that might have been true for development purposes the fact remains that no fully automatic rifles were recovered from the ruins -- although the FBI and the Texas Rangers conducted an exhaustive search.

Don't you think that fire destroyed most of them? I've seen footage of the firefight, it looks like they were using fully auto weapons to me.

If they weren't breaking laws, they probably had nothing to fear from a search. Instead they shot four ATF agents, and Koresh had a choice between getting his cultists to commit mass suicide and going to the big house and being someone's prison bitch. (which is what they do to his sort in the big house).

Sadly, he chose the former. And became a hero to gun-toting assholes.

 

[JoeB131]

I didn't say they didn't know the raiders were ATF. What I said is according to Texas Penal Law they had a right to defend themselves against the ATF agents' unlawful attempt to break in and arrest them.

No, the ATF had a warrant.

As far as defending cops is concerned, I will defend any cop who justifiably uses lethal force, such as Ptl, Darrel Wilson (Ferguson, MO) who shot Mike Brown to death. Brown was a bullying scumbag who asked for what he got.

Yup. He stole some cigars.

Totally worth killing him over.

Meanwhile, Koresh had molested children, sold illegal guns, shot four ATF agents.. but he was "Criming While White".

 

[JoeB131]

Without having read any of the books about the Waco Massacre you feel qualified to negatively criticize them.

I have read those books. They're bullshit.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Yes, but you see, here's the thing. The people who wrote those books didn't have the physical evidence. Multiple agencies (not just the FBI and ATF) investigated Waco and all of them concluded it was a mass suicide.

I see.

You are saying law-enforcement entities never manipulate and fabricate evidence and lie to justify their illegal and improper actions?

Okay.

this trolls boss sure pays him a lot of money for the constant ass beatings he gets here everyday.notice how he keeps evading the video evidence? lol

 

[LA RAM FAN]

thats the only kind of replies that he should be given on this thread for now on,everything else is a waste of time since he is just trying to get reactions out of us.

yeah, it's fun to watch you guys defend the kiddy-diddling cultists of Waco.

Nobody has ONCE defended them. What we have decried is the senseless slaughter of 20 kids who were 15 and under, that YOU not only support, but celebrate. You are a fucked up individual.

He is obviously one of countless number of government paid shills that have penetrated this forum.He has farted five times on the last page here.Must have sucked when I took him to school with my video proof that the clintons and bushs are long time pals and there is no difference between the two parties that they are both corrupt.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Yes, but you see, here's the thing. The people who wrote those books didn't have the physical evidence. Multiple agencies (not just the FBI and ATF) investigated Waco and all of them concluded it was a mass suicide.

I see.

You are saying law-enforcement entities never manipulate and fabricate evidence and lie to justify their illegal and improper actions?

Okay.

thats the logic of the troll.lol

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Yes, every post you make merely shows what crazy and stupid can come up with they are hosted by the same tiny little mind, such as yours. The evidence is overwhelming that the davidians did not commit suicide. But leave it to a crazy baby burning prick like you to ignore that. Makes it easier for you to burn the next bunch.

Right... so you had three investigations that stated that the Davidians committed mass suicide.

Not to mention- the 2000 trial that cleared the government of any wrongdoing.

Government Cleared in Deaths at Waco

The judge, Walter Smith Jr. of Federal District Court in Waco, issued an order that found that federal agents had acted legally and could not be held liable for the deaths. His ruling ended a legal battle that lasted nearly seven years and came after an advisory jury in the case and a special counsel, former Senator John C. Danforth, both issued similar findings in July.

The Associated Press reported that Judge Smith wrote in his order that no Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents ''fired any shot nor used any force against residents of the compound and the Davidians that was unprovoked.''

''Gunfire was directed at A.T.F. agents by both male and female adult Davidians,'' the judge wrote. ''No A.T.F. agent fired any shot nor used any force against residents of the compound and the Davidians that was indiscriminate.''

Oh shit. Color me shocked that the government clears itself in an investigation of ITSELF.

You're a fucking moron of the first order.

Indeed.talk about the fox guarding the henhouse.

this nutcase obviously thinks oswald shot JFK as well and that the warren commission was a factual non biased objective investigation with honerable men in charge.



this shill reminds me of another shill that trolls here and defends the warren commission on several message boards as well. people will show him videos of evidence that proves oswald innocent and there were multiple gunmen and he wont address any of the facts in the videos,he'll just reply saying-thats been debunked,read the warren commission. him and joe troll boy should get a marriage licence,they make a perfect couple.same babble over and over again just like that JFK guy.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Yes, but you see, here's the thing. The people who wrote those books didn't have the physical evidence. Multiple agencies (not just the FBI and ATF) investigated Waco and all of them concluded it was a mass suicide.

Without having read any of the books about the Waco Massacre you feel qualified to negatively criticize them.

thats how these trolls operate,criticise books they have never read since it exposes the governments lies.

 

[MikeK]

Yup. He stole some cigars.

[...]

It's not what he did but the way he did it that revealed his character and potential. But that's something you might not be genetically equipped to comprehend.

 

[MikeK]

Don't you think that fire destroyed most of them? I've seen footage of the firefight, it looks like they were using fully auto weapons to me.

No, I don't think the fire reached the level which was capable of destroying hardened steel beyond being clearly identifiable. If it did there would not have been any identifiable corpses. And if you had read, Ashes of Waco, as you claim to, you would have read the testimony of the Texas Rangers armorer who examined every weapon recovered from those ruins and flatly declared at the Waco "hearings" and elsewhere that none were fully automatic.

Having watched footage of the firefight your impression that the Davidians were using full-auto weapons speaks either for your relative ignorance or your tendency to believe anything you wish to believe (delusional accommodation), which you do seem inclined to. I watched the same footage and saw nothing to suggest the Davidians were using full-auto weapons, nor have I ever heard or read anyone else make the same assertion -- and lots of very firearms savvy individuals have posted on this topic over the years.

If they weren't breaking laws, they probably had nothing to fear from a search.

So what? I have nothing to fear from a search -- except the oppressive humiliation it would impart. Why should I submit to being humiliated by a bunch of goons with badges when I know I've done nothing to warrant their action? One of the major benefits of living in a free country is the liberty to defend oneself from such oppression. Sadly, emergence of the authoritarian state in recent years, largely as a consequence of the drug war, has eroded that spirit of freedom from unjustified police aggression. If you doubt that, go here: http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

My position on this is if they come banging on my door and attempting to break into my home they'd better have an honest warrant or I will defend myself. I feel the same way about someone who attempts to rob or otherwise harm me on the street. I have the choice of submitting for the sake of safety or resisting for the sake of personal integrity.

Instead they shot four ATF agents, and Koresh had a choice between getting his cultists to commit mass suicide and going to the big house and being someone's prison bitch. (which is what they do to his sort in the big house).

How do you know what is done in the "big house."

Sadly, he chose the former. And became a hero to gun-toting assholes.

If you'd actually read the books you say you've read you would know Koresh's position was simply that he'd done nothing to justify that raid -- and he was absolutely right. His greatest mistake was believing Government would call that raid off and he would have a chance to state his case. He literally begged for an opportunity to talk with the Press which was consistently denied. If he'd been given access to the media there is no question that public protest would have afforded him his day in court.

But Government had other ideas -- and you are a prime example of their intention and efforts.

 

[HenryBHough]

Update:

Reno arrived today at her final destination and was greeted by a throng of children.

Each one not just holding a candle but thrusting them at her clothing.

Truly a well deserved welcome.

 

[westwall]

Koresh was an FFL licensed firearms dealer, as was a number of other Davidians and they had an active mail-order business. Everything they sold was strictly legal. The reason BATF wanted to search their premises was the undercover's report that they were converting various semi-auto rifles into full auto. While I suspect that might have been true for development purposes the fact remains that no fully automatic rifles were recovered from the ruins -- although the FBI and the Texas Rangers conducted an exhaustive search.

Don't you think that fire destroyed most of them? I've seen footage of the firefight, it looks like they were using fully auto weapons to me.

If they weren't breaking laws, they probably had nothing to fear from a search. Instead they shot four ATF agents, and Koresh had a choice between getting his cultists to commit mass suicide and going to the big house and being someone's prison bitch. (which is what they do to his sort in the big house).

Sadly, he chose the former. And became a hero to gun-toting assholes.

They had LEGAL full auto weapons. There is a MOUNTAIN of facts that you are seemingly oblivious to. No surprise there. You will fix on any excuse, no matter how flimsy, to justify (in your warped, rucked up mind) the murder of people you don't like. YOU are the reason the Founders saw fit to keep the PEOPLE armed. Power mad assholes, like you, love killing defenseless people. That's why you are so invested in disarming the people of this country. Makes it easier for you to commit your atrocities.

 

[MikeK]

No, the ATF had a warrant.

The warrant was not presented. Koresh demanded to see the warrant when the agents reached the front door. The lead agent said, Let us inside and we'll show you the warrant!" Koresh then slammed the door -- and a bullet came through the door and struck him in the side.

Although the question arose several times during the Waco "Hearings" it was never determined which of the agents actually had the warrant. The obvious reason for that is the warrant was almost totally defective. It contained lies, gross exaggerations and egregious errors. I am surprised the judge who issued that warrant was not disbarred.

One specification in the warrant was suspicion of child molestation, a complaint which had been investigated and cleared by the local sheriff and state social services -- and which the BATF has absolutely no jurisdiction to investigate.

Another specification referred to suspicion of "drug manufacturing, a charge which was made against a completely different Davidian chapter and had been investigated and prosecuted by local authority and the DEA. It was a dead issue that had nothing to do with Koresh.

The only reasonable specification in the warrant was suspicion of "manufacturing and sale of fully automatic weapons," for which there wasn't a shred of evidence -- which would be required to justify a search warrant. An ATF agent's opinion and suspicion is not Probable Cause. It is opinion and suspicion. But persons with the mentality you clearly manifest are willing to accept this kind of abuse of your Constitutional protections, which is why this Nation is devolving into a totalitarian state, one little step at a time.

Waco was a very big step in that direction.

 

[westwall]

No, the ATF had a warrant.

The warrant was not presented. Koresh demanded to see the warrant when the agents reached the front door. The lead agent said, Let us inside and we'll show you the warrant!" Koresh then slammed the door -- and a bullet came through the door and struck him in the side.

Although the question arose several times during the Waco "Hearings" it was never determined which of the agents actually had the warrant. The obvious reason for that is the warrant was almost totally defective. It contained lies, gross exaggerations and egregious errors. I am surprised the judge who issued that warrant was not disbarred.

One specification in the warrant was suspicion of child molestation, a complaint which had been investigated and cleared by the local sheriff and state social services -- and which the BATF has absolutely no jurisdiction to investigate.

Another specification referred to suspicion of "drug manufacturing, a charge which was made against a completely different Davidian chapter and had been investigated and prosecuted by local authority and the DEA. It was a dead issue that had nothing to do with Koresh.

The only reasonable specification in the warrant was suspicion of "manufacturing and sale of fully automatic weapons," for which there wasn't a shred of evidence -- which would be required to justify a search warrant. An ATF agent's opinion and suspicion is not Probable Cause. It is opinion and suspicion. But persons with the mentality you clearly manifest are willing to accept this kind of abuse of your Constitutional protections, which is why this Nation is devolving into a totalitarian state, one little step at a time.

Waco was a very big step in that direction.

Not only was it not presented, it wasn't even on scene. The ATF broke every rule in the raid playbook.

 

[JoeB131]

It's not what he did but the way he did it that revealed his character and potential. But that's something you might not be genetically equipped to comprehend.

So let's me get this straight. A kid steals some cigars, you need to shoot him, but a bunch ofkiddy-diddling, drug dealing, gun-happy cultists shoot ATF agents and we need to treat them with kid gloves?

Got it.

Criming while White.

 

[HenryBHough]

All those murdered by Clinton's puppet Reno should be counted among Clinton Crime Family Victims.

 

[JoeB131]

Not only was it not presented, it wasn't even on scene. The ATF broke every rule in the raid playbook.

And the place to fight that out was in the courts, not a shootout with police officers who had clearly identified themselves.

 

[westwall]

Not only was it not presented, it wasn't even on scene. The ATF broke every rule in the raid playbook.

And the place to fight that out was in the courts, not a shootout with police officers who had clearly identified themselves.

Doesn't work when the ATF shoots first, now does it. We get it, you love overwhelming government power and woe to those who actually defend themselves from a illegal attack by that government. Go burn another baby, asshole.