Is the left really against schools hiring students or is the issue Gingrich said it?

[snjmom]

That's a complete cop out and you know it. I'm amazed you are even trying to get away with it.

If you blocked people from having access to book stores and car dealerships, while taking advantage of them yourself, then your comparisons would be apt.

When you state that you are not going to allow ANY school choice, oppose magnet schools and charter schools and voucher and school choice of any kind, but DAMMIT, I'm sending my kid to a nice Catholic School while I INSIST on busing your kid into the Ghetto for the purpose of "democratizing" him. That isn't choice, that's coercion.

Further, if you ignore the wishes of the people who are like, paying for this stuff, by insisting on teaching evolution only when some of them want intelligent design taught, or forcing birth control and sex education on them when they feel that is something that should be taught in the home, then we aren't really talking about "choices" anymore, are we.

Only true if you have access to these things for free. If I pay for private school out of my pocket after paying the taxes that support public schools, how am I blocking access to private schools from anyone else that wants to send their child there? The fact that they don't want to spend the money is what blocks them from private schools, unless the schools just don't want their children to attend. And the science curriculum should be based on scientific fact, not anyone's religious views. Our nation is far too diverse in religious views and I can't imagine what kind of lab work you could do to support ID.

 

[JoeB131]

You're mistaken. Busing was a response to unequal schools. That was and is a real problem.

Teaching creationism in science class in public schools is a dumb idea. Sorry.

You have no idea what I propose for fixing education. Just because I reject your failed ideas doesn't mean that I am in favor of things staying as they are.

How can those ideas be "failed" if they haven't been tried?

Busing was a liberal way of taking advantage. Keep in mind, what Brown v. Education corrected was intentionally segregated schools. Busing was just an "in your face" way of showing the peasents who was in charge around here.

 

[snjmom]

As someone that went through the bussing in 76-80 I can state from experience that the reasoning was that if the white kids had to go to the black schools, the white parents would demand improvements in the black schools.

But, like Cairo, IL they pulled out of the school system because they believed the inequities in the system were the natural order of things.

ID is a failure as a science. It's so obvious on the face of it that only an unreasonable person could even consider it. The market is not a good solution to education if we want all citizens to have access to a good education. Markets are not good solutions for public goods. Markets are a good solution if we want to ration good education based on price.

 

[JoeB131]

As someone that went through the bussing in 76-80 I can state from experience that the reasoning was that if the white kids had to go to the black schools, the white parents would demand improvements in the black schools.

But, like Cairo, IL they pulled out of the school system because they believed the inequities in the system were the natural order of things.

Or they just didn't like the thought of busing their kids across town into dangerous neighborhoods just to "make a point". Which is how it was practiced in Chicago.

ID is a failure as a science. It's so obvious on the face of it that only an unreasonable person could even consider it.

I think it's more an issue of faith. The problem, I think, is that evolution and Christianity are largely incompatable. Not sure of what the solution is, but beating CHristian kids over the head with science books isn't the answer.

The market is not a good solution to education if we want all citizens to have access to a good education. Markets are not good solutions for public goods. Markets are a good solution if we want to ration good education based on price.

But you fail to see the advantage of markets, which is improvement through competition.

If schools had to compete for those voucher dollars, they'd find ways to be better. They wouldn't have a situation where a union teacher was phoning it in because, screw it, she has tenure and is waiting for retirement. (Seriously, why do middle school math teachers need "tenure"?)

 

[SAT2]

The purpose of busing was not to "make a point". It was an effort to address inequalities in the schools. As I said, it was a failure. But so were schools segregated by economics.

Evolution and Christianity are not incompatible according to the Pope, and according to many Protestant denominations. Your thinking is based on a misunderstanding of the views of many, many Christians. The reason you believe that there is an incompatibility is that the evolution deniers are incredibly loud, and you're paying attention to the volume, not the facts.

 

[JoeB131]

The purpose of busing was not to "make a point". It was an effort to address inequalities in the schools. As I said, it was a failure. But so were schools segregated by economics.

Again, the fallacy that throwing money into a pit makes the pit less deep.

The Purpose of busing was exactly the purpose of most liberal policies. BOW DOWN BEFORE THE GOVERNMENT! And when people revolted by getting out of the system, it failed.

Just that simple.

Evolution and Christianity are not incompatible according to the Pope, and according to many Protestant denominations. Your thinking is based on a misunderstanding of the views of many, many Christians. The reason you believe that there is an incompatibility is that the evolution deniers are incredibly loud, and you're paying attention to the volume, not the facts.

Well, the Pope's acceptance of evolution (actually, what he supports is a version of Old Earth Creationism- life changed, but God guided it) is pretty much like his proclamation (after WWII) that the Jews hadn't killed Jesus when the bible pretty clearly said they did.

It's nice to be able to change your theology on a dime, but it doesn't pass the laugh test.

either God created the world or it was a series of cosmic accidents. There really isn't a middle ground.

 

[SAT2]

Again, the fallacy that throwing money into a pit makes the pit less deep.

Well, sure, throwing anything into a pet makes it less deep.

The Purpose of busing was exactly the purpose of most liberal policies. BOW DOWN BEFORE THE GOVERNMENT! And when people revolted by getting out of the system, it failed.

Just that simple.

Try not to be ridiculous.

Well, the Pope's acceptance of evolution (actually, what he supports is a version of Old Earth Creationism- life changed, but God guided it) is pretty much like his proclamation (after WWII) that the Jews hadn't killed Jesus when the bible pretty clearly said they did.

It's nice to be able to change your theology on a dime, but it doesn't pass the laugh test.

either God created the world or it was a series of cosmic accidents. There really isn't a middle ground.

Actually, there is a middle ground, and many Christians stand in it. They have no problem with the teaching of evolution in the schools.

 

[JoeB131]

Besides your concept of throwing money in a pit being a good idea, let's see what other ridiculous things you said.

The government's attitudes were arrogant. Not only were most whites against busing, so were most blacks. Didn't matter, the government was going to desegregate, they were going to bus, and you peasents should learn who your masters are! BOW DOWN...

Second point. Yeah, I guess if you ignore theology, you can pretend evolution and Jesus are both true.

Of course, the whole reason Jesus came down was because Adam and Eve at the apple after listening to the talking snake.

Evolution- No Adam. No Eve. No talking snake. No reason for Jesus to stop by.

 

[SAT2]

Besides your concept of throwing money in a pit being a good idea, let's see what other ridiculous things you said.

I didn't say it was a good idea. I was just pointing out that your statement made no sense.

The government's attitudes were arrogant. Not only were most whites against busing, so were most blacks. Didn't matter, the government was going to desegregate, they were going to bus, and you peasents should learn who your masters are! BOW DOWN...

You're projecting.

Second point. Yeah, I guess if you ignore theology, you can pretend evolution and Jesus are both true.

Of course, the whole reason Jesus came down was because Adam and Eve at the apple after listening to the talking snake.

Evolution- No Adam. No Eve. No talking snake. No reason for Jesus to stop by.

Your theology is from the dime store. Not all Christians take Adam and Eve literally. In fact, huge numbers of them don't.

 

[kaz]

The market is not a good solution to education if we want all citizens to have access to a good education

Wow, you think government is providing "good education?" Wow...

 

[NYcarbineer]

The market is not a good solution to education if we want all citizens to have access to a good education

Wow, you think government is providing "good education?" Wow...

Most of the best students in the world are educated in government schools. In other countries.

 

[SAT2]

The market is not a good solution to education if we want all citizens to have access to a good education

Wow, you think government is providing "good education?" Wow...

It's just standard wingnut wisdom that the public schools are disasters, isn't it? All so you can establish your caliphate.

 

[JoeB131]

Not projecting at all. I lived through the busing controversy. The pure arrogance of these assholes was astounding. Then they acted all surprised when people elected Reagan.

As for dime-store theology, I never cared much for the mental gymnastics religious people go through to try to keep pretending to believe in their fairy-tales. I thought it was bullshit when the nun explained that God drowned every baby in the world because they were WIIIIIIIICKED. The fact that by High School they changed their story to "it was just a metaphor" didn't hold any water with me.

 

[SAT2]

Not projecting at all. I lived through the busing controversy. The pure arrogance of these assholes was astounding. Then they acted all surprised when people elected Reagan.

Lived through it or not, you're projecting. As you can see from snjmom's comment, not everyone had the same take on it. My town was too little to bus anyone. The black kids had been in a two room school for decades, and they just closed it and let the black kids come to the schools they should have been going to all along.

As for dime-store theology, I never cared much for the mental gymnastics religious people go through to try to keep pretending to believe in their fairy-tales. I thought it was bullshit when the nun explained that God drowned every baby in the world because they were WIIIIIIIICKED. The fact that by High School they changed their story to "it was just a metaphor" didn't hold any water with me.

You're missing the point, by miles.

 

[JoeB131]

The market is not a good solution to education if we want all citizens to have access to a good education

Wow, you think government is providing "good education?" Wow...

It's just standard wingnut wisdom that the public schools are disasters, isn't it? All so you can establish your caliphate.

You know what, it's just common sense.

When I was a Sergeant in the Army, I got the wonderful end-results of your public education system. Couldnt' do math, couldn't write down a sentence, didn't know basic geography or history. (Like what years WWI were fought and which Germany is our ally during the Cold War.)

"Hey, Private Snuffy, why'd you join the army".

"So I can goes to college, Sergeant B!"

 

[SAT2]

You know what, it's just common sense.

When I was a Sergeant in the Army, I got the wonderful end-results of your public education system. Couldnt' do math, couldn't write down a sentence, didn't know basic geography or history. (Like what years WWI were fought and which Germany is our ally during the Cold War.)

"Hey, Private Snuffy, why'd you join the army".

"So I can goes to college, Sergeant B!"

You're beyond hilarious. Nothing ever happened to anybody but you.

 

[kaz]

The market is not a good solution to education if we want all citizens to have access to a good education

Wow, you think government is providing "good education?" Wow...

Most of the best students in the world are educated in government schools. In other countries.

Thanks! I wasn't expecting support from you on what a waste our government schools are. But welcome aboard to the dark side...

 

[kaz]

The market is not a good solution to education if we want all citizens to have access to a good education

Wow, you think government is providing "good education?" Wow...

It's just standard wingnut wisdom that the public schools are disasters, isn't it? All so you can establish your caliphate.

Well, if you want to ignore cost per pupil or compare our test scores to the rest of the West, then you still don't have a case. But those are pretty telling stats. They await a liberal talking point that the problem is that even though our spending is high compared to the countries we lose to, the problem is we're not spending enough. That'll resolve it for you. Government is the way. All roads lead to Rome with Democrats. The answer is more spending, now, what's the question?

 

[JoeB131]

Lived through it or not, you're projecting. As you can see from snjmom's comment, not everyone had the same take on it. My town was too little to bus anyone. The black kids had been in a two room school for decades, and they just closed it and let the black kids come to the schools they should have been going to all along.

And that was fine. But in a big city like Chicago, they were playing a big shell game with the kids. Meanwhile, of course, the Lipinskis were sending their lilly-white kids to the same Catholic school I went to. I mean, they weren't going to subject their OWN kids to this bullshit!

And when the wind changed direction, old Bill became the first "Reagan Democrat!"

As for dime-store theology, I never cared much for the mental gymnastics religious people go through to try to keep pretending to believe in their fairy-tales. I thought it was bullshit when the nun explained that God drowned every baby in the world because they were WIIIIIIIICKED. The fact that by High School they changed their story to "it was just a metaphor" didn't hold any water with me.

You're missing the point, by miles.

Not at all. The whole purpose of Christianity is that Jesus died for your sins. Or more specifically, the sin of Adam. The "Original Sin", which of course, we had to do several sacraments as Catholics to atone ourselves of- Baptism, Communion, Confession, Confirmation. All that bullshit for a sin that they admit was "just a metaphor" or "didn't actually happen that way."

I mean, Jesus, years of swallowing dry-ass wafers because the nuns told us that it was part of Jesus and we couldn't chew Jesus!

Sorry, if you believe we just evolved from a shit-flinging monkey- Jesus, God, Sin, Sacrements, the whole nine yards, just become COMPLETELY unnecessary to the equation.

 

[JoeB131]

You know what, it's just common sense.

When I was a Sergeant in the Army, I got the wonderful end-results of your public education system. Couldnt' do math, couldn't write down a sentence, didn't know basic geography or history. (Like what years WWI were fought and which Germany is our ally during the Cold War.)

"Hey, Private Snuffy, why'd you join the army".

"So I can goes to college, Sergeant B!"

You're beyond hilarious. Nothing ever happened to anybody but you.

Well, all the awesome stuff happens in my life. But I find it hard to believe that I was the only NCO in the army encountering these knobs...