Is it fair to have pit bulls around other people?

[☭proletarian☭]

I understand what you are saying but I'm not so sure about that. Dogs have been bred and manipulated by humans for thousands of years. Physically you can see that in size, shape, hair coat, and tail carriage but it also exists in temperment with a far wider range then humans.

General population

The racial composition of the US population as of 2008 was 79.79% White American (65.60% non-Hispanic and 14.19% Hispanic), 12.84% African American (12.22% non-Hispanic and 0.62% Hispanic), 4.45% Asian American (4.35% non-Hispanic and 0.10% Hispanic), 1.01% American Indian or Alaska Native (0.76% non-Hispanic and 0.25% Hispanic), 0.18% Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander American (0.14% non-Hispanic and 0.04% Hispanic), and 1.69% Multiracial American (1.64% non-Hispanic and 0.05% Hispanic). 15.25% of the total US population identified their ethnicity as Hispanic.[8]
Prison population

Further information: Incarceration in the United States
The racial composition of the US prison and jail population as of 2008 was 33.44% White American (non-Hispanic), 40.21% African American (non-Hispanic), 20.29% Hispanic, and 6.06% Other (American Indian, Alaska Native, Asian American, Native Hawaiian, Pacific Islander American, and Multiracial American).[9]

(stats show that blacks are most oft killed by blacks)

 

[☭proletarian☭]

This is were people who claim pit bulls are naturally vicious killers start to sound just like people who claim blacks have an inborn tendency to steal

Crime rates and the entire continent of Africa prove it. Blacks are incapable as a race of civilized society. They only truly flourish when elevated by the White man.The ones we brought with us? Now their ancestors have indoor plumbing, a shot at a good education for the one in a million with a brain, and a better life in prison for the rest of the animals than the ones still in Africa. The ones that went back> Well, just look at Liberia today versus the US or Western Europe.

Those are the facts of the matter.

 

[Anguille]

It only takes a few generations to breed specific traits into dogs, since dog generations are short.

Also, I didn't realize that you were so old that you were around for the birth of domesticated dogs. People have been wondering for years how it happened, you could earn some good money describing the process.

How about presenting some scientific evidence to backup your ravings?

Can you provide expert testimony in favor of breed specific laws?
Please back up your claims that if we eliminate pit bulls no one will ever be harmed by a dog again.

You can read about breeding for aggressiveness here:

Genetics of aggression - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can search around the web and discover no one knows how long it took to domesticate dogs. I doubt it took more than a few generations of breeding the wild dogs found with sunny dispositions to each other.

Here is a case where expert testimony was used:

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/pitbullDenver.pdf

Here's an amusing one, but pretty good...from the president of PETA, a group I normally can't stand.

Controlling an animal as deadly as a weapon - SFGate

I've never claimed that if we eliminate pit bulls no one will ever be harmed by a dog again.

I think you missed the part again where I said I was talking about viciousness in dogs not aggression, which occurs naturally in all dogs.

Your second link is sponsored by a lawyer specializing in suing people bitten by dogs looking to drum up business for his practice.

Meet your host:

Attorney Kenneth Phillips is the author of this web site. He has a unique law practice: he represents only people who have been bitten by a dog. His clients include children and adults throughout the United States.
Mr. Phillips welcomes E-mail from visitors to this website, especially dog bite victims and their families. He responds personally and answers questions for free.








Some expert witness you have there, Rabid Ravi.

I disagree with you third source's opinion that pit bulls should be singled out for laws making breeding them illegal. There was no convincing evidence present as to why. Just a lot of fear mongering imagery.

Until you can produce something credible, I'll continue with putting my confidence in the Center for Disease Control, medical and veterinary associations and SPA's which have all denounced breed specific laws as being based on fallacious assumptions and conterproductive to the effort to reduce violent encounters between dogs and humans.

 

[Anguille]

I'll put forth some "food for thought" here....

Thanks Coyote, for a very informative post. It was indeed food for thought.

 

[Ravi]

How about presenting some scientific evidence to backup your ravings?

Can you provide expert testimony in favor of breed specific laws?
Please back up your claims that if we eliminate pit bulls no one will ever be harmed by a dog again.

You can read about breeding for aggressiveness here:

Genetics of aggression - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can search around the web and discover no one knows how long it took to domesticate dogs. I doubt it took more than a few generations of breeding the wild dogs found with sunny dispositions to each other.

Here is a case where expert testimony was used:

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/pitbullDenver.pdf

Here's an amusing one, but pretty good...from the president of PETA, a group I normally can't stand.

Controlling an animal as deadly as a weapon - SFGate

I've never claimed that if we eliminate pit bulls no one will ever be harmed by a dog again.

I think you missed the part again where I said I was talking about viciousness in dogs not aggression, which occurs naturally in all dogs.

Your second link is sponsored by a lawyer specializing in suing people bitten by dogs looking to drum up business for his practice.

Meet your host:

Attorney Kenneth Phillips is the author of this web site. He has a unique law practice: he represents only people who have been bitten by a dog. His clients include children and adults throughout the United States.
Mr. Phillips welcomes E-mail from visitors to this website, especially dog bite victims and their families. He responds personally and answers questions for free.








Some expert witness you have there, Rabid Ravi.

I disagree with you third source's opinion that pit bulls should be singled out for laws making breeding them illegal. There was no convincing evidence present as to why. Just a lot of fear mongering imagery.

Until you can produce something credible, I'll continue with putting my confidence in the Center for Disease Control, medical and veterinary associations and SPA's which have all denounced breed specific laws as being based on fallacious assumptions and conterproductive to the effort to reduce violent encounters between dogs and humans.

I'm not surprised you didn't read about the lawsuit and the evidence presented therein.

btw

vicious


4 a : dangerously aggressive : savage <a vicious dog>

 

[Coyote]

Not so. They have the reputation because they are aggressive and many of those that own them cannot control them. Plus that little troubling fact that they have more brute strength and determination to finish the kill than many other breeds.

They can have a fairly high prey drive and they can have a high degree of dog-to-dog aggression, but that is not much worse then a number of other breeds. If you're talking about aggression towards humans - there are breeds with a greater reputation for that but the media doesn't bother with them.

That could be true...but perhaps they aren't bothered with because they are more uncommon.


Thanks for not bringing up Angie's usual silliness about attack tea cup dogs.

And Angie, you're insane if you think dogs can't be bred to be aggressive.

I think things need to be kept in perspective which a lot of time is lost when people start discussing pitbulls.

First off - fatal dog attacks are RARE, though you wouldn't know it to listen to the popular media. A report on fatal dog attacks showed that in the 20 years between 1979 and 1998, a total of 238 fatal dog attacks occurred and a 25 different breeds of dogs were implicated. While Pitbulls led the list in terms of numbers - you are still talking about a statistically tiny number of incidents, certainly not enough to warrent the hysteria over certain breeds.

The report drew the following conclusions—Although fatal attacks on humans appear to be a breed-specific problem (pit bull-type dogs and Rottweilers), other breeds may bite and cause fatalities at higher rates. Because of difficulties inherent in determining a dog’s breed with certainty, enforcement of breed-specific ordinances raises constitutional and practical issues. Fatal attacks represent a small proportion of dog bite injuries to humans and, therefore, should not be the primary factor driving public policy concerning dangerous dogs. Many practical alternatives to breed-specific ordinances exist and hold promise for prevention of dog bites. (J Am Vet Med Assoc 2000;217:836–840


Now this group produced another report which on the surface sounds more damning but reading it, it raises questions of methodology. I strongly question their breed identification - most mix breeds are hard to identify and pretty often people don't even identify pitbulls accurately and pet owners are often guessing on mixes. It claims: this table covers only attacks by dogs of clearly identified breed type or ancestry, as designated by animal control officers or others with evident expertise, who have been kept as pets. Animal control officers, while well meaning run the spectrun in terms of accuracy in identifying breed - I know that from personal experience dealing with them on rescue dogs.

The report implicates pitbulls in 1110 indidents involving "bodily harm" a term which included maimings. Out of that 102 fatalaties between 1982 and 2006 and 608 maimings (defined as permanent disfigurement or loss of limb). That's over a period of 24 years - you're still looking at very small numbers of approximately 4 fatalities a year and 10 maimings a year nationwide. A total of 264 deaths over that time by all breeds combined were reported and 1323 maimings meaning a little over 1/3 of fatalities and a little under one half maimings were by pitbulls. Still, very small numbers when you look at overall dog populations in the country and the estimate of approximately 5 million pitbulls kept as pets.

It's a given that a big and powerfull dog is going to do a lot more damage but the numbers give no support to the contention that Pitbulls are more aggressive, more likely to "snap' or any other media-driven hysterical conclusions being drawn.

 

[Anguille]

You can read about breeding for aggressiveness here:

Genetics of aggression - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can search around the web and discover no one knows how long it took to domesticate dogs. I doubt it took more than a few generations of breeding the wild dogs found with sunny dispositions to each other.

Here is a case where expert testimony was used:

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/pitbullDenver.pdf

Here's an amusing one, but pretty good...from the president of PETA, a group I normally can't stand.

Controlling an animal as deadly as a weapon - SFGate

I've never claimed that if we eliminate pit bulls no one will ever be harmed by a dog again.

I think you missed the part again where I said I was talking about viciousness in dogs not aggression, which occurs naturally in all dogs.

Your second link is sponsored by a lawyer specializing in suing people bitten by dogs looking to drum up business for his practice.

Meet your host:

Attorney Kenneth Phillips is the author of this web site. He has a unique law practice: he represents only people who have been bitten by a dog. His clients include children and adults throughout the United States.
Mr. Phillips welcomes E-mail from visitors to this website, especially dog bite victims and their families. He responds personally and answers questions for free.








Some expert witness you have there, Rabid Ravi.

I disagree with you third source's opinion that pit bulls should be singled out for laws making breeding them illegal. There was no convincing evidence present as to why. Just a lot of fear mongering imagery.

Until you can produce something credible, I'll continue with putting my confidence in the Center for Disease Control, medical and veterinary associations and SPA's which have all denounced breed specific laws as being based on fallacious assumptions and conterproductive to the effort to reduce violent encounters between dogs and humans.

I'm not surprised you didn't read about the lawsuit and the evidence presented therein.

btw

vicious


4 a : dangerously aggressive : savage <a vicious dog>

The website presents quite a lot of evidence and links to evidence for why breed specific laws are ineffectual. I'm surprised you would even think it helps your case.

 

[Coyote]

I'll put forth some "food for thought" here....

Thanks Coyote, for a very informative post. It was indeed food for thought.

You're welcome...as you can guess, dog behavior and evolution is one of my passions I am always wanting to learn more about it!

 

[Coyote]

...............

Further information: Incarceration in the United States
The racial composition of the US prison and jail population as of 2008 was 33.44% White American (non-Hispanic), 40.21% African American (non-Hispanic), 20.29% Hispanic, and 6.06% Other (American Indian, Alaska Native, Asian American, Native Hawaiian, Pacific Islander American, and Multiracial American).[9]
(stats show that blacks are most oft killed by blacks)

I'm not sure what your point is.....

that genetics causes crime??? (if so that is a gross over simplification of crime and incarceration statistics - correlation doesn't necessarily equal causation)

that humans exhibit as much physically diverse morphology as dogs....?

That doesn't add up - thus far there is nothing as extreme as:

 

[dateLess]

My female Six turned a year old the first of January. I have three other dogs. Six is pitbull the others are shar pei chow mix. I really just dont trust any dog around kids. As far as pitbulls I feel its how your raise them. People make their dogs mean. I dont allow kids over my house. Because my dogs are not use to being around kids. Kids are just as unpredictable as pitbulls or any dog. I know my dogs are good with adults. And for some reason my dogs do not like you. I ask you to leave. Been several times a chic brings a chic over for me to meet. And my dogs dont like her. I ask her to leave. Or a person my dogs cant be easy with same thing I ask them to leave. I know from experience with my dogs. Its only takes about five minutes for me to know.


On another note some years ago. I had different pitbull (blind) and six of my other dogs. Mauled a friend of mine. Had meat hanging out of his arm. Fist size bite marks all over his body. He knew I had dogs. Been few years since he paid visit was not aware how many I had. So he thought it would be ok to jump a locked posted no trepassing gate.

 

[Coyote]

It only takes a few generations to breed specific traits into dogs, since dog generations are short.

Also, I didn't realize that you were so old that you were around for the birth of domesticated dogs. People have been wondering for years how it happened, you could earn some good money describing the process.

How about presenting some scientific evidence to backup your ravings?

Can you provide expert testimony in favor of breed specific laws?
Please back up your claims that if we eliminate pit bulls no one will ever be harmed by a dog again.

You can read about breeding for aggressiveness here:

Genetics of aggression - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can search around the web and discover no one knows how long it took to domesticate dogs. I doubt it took more than a few generations of breeding the wild dogs found with sunny dispositions to each other.

Unfortunately it isn't so simple - the domestication of dogs took a very very long time and was really pretty much accidental in beginning. It is highly unlikely it resulted from humans capturing wolf pups and "taming" them. If you've ever raised a wild animal from infancy even - you would quickly find it retains all it's wild instincts, even under the appearance of "tameness" - it is not very domestic. They are nervous, high strung, not very social to people except maybe a select few. Even raising generations does not always significantly reduce that. I have a friend who "farms" deer. Her deer have been "domestic" for multiple generations. However to keep them from becoming feral she has to hand raise every fawn - take it from the mother and raise it. If she doesn't, she can not handle it as an adult and even then, they are still high strung and easily damage themselves. Wolves are very similar - "tamed" wolves, even those raised around humans for generations are always bottle raised and never act really like dogs - they are shy, not protective, don't bark and are strictly heirarchical). When you think about primitive people and the sort of life they would have led - there is no rational reason why they would have invested time and scarce resources raising a wild animal (a competing carnivore even) for the length of time needed to create a truely domestic animal. The most likely scenario for domestication is those wolves with less fear hanging around scavanging. Look at the modern day equivelents - coyotes, pigeons....and how unafraid some of them have become. Easy to see how that leads to domestication.

Here is a case where expert testimony was used:

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/pitbullDenver.pdf

Here's an amusing one, but pretty good...from the president of PETA, a group I normally can't stand.

Controlling an animal as deadly as a weapon - SFGate

I've never claimed that if we eliminate pit bulls no one will ever be harmed by a dog again.

You can deliberately breed for increased aggression but aggression itself is hard to define and can be a result of a number of traits. Some dogs have a very high level of arousal and a short trigger - and I imagine that is what you are referring to and that is what street thugs are probably looking for but there are two factors to consider - any breed can be bred for those characteristics, some more easily then others and, given the total number of pits in this country and the drop-in-the-bucket number of attacks and fatalities....there can't be many people doing that, certainly not enough to justify ineffective breed ban legislation.

 

[Anguille]

You can deliberately breed for increased aggression but aggression itself is hard to define and can be a result of a number of traits. Some dogs have a very high level of arousal and a short trigger - and I imagine that is what you are referring to and that is what street thugs are probably looking for but there are two factors to consider - any breed can be bred for those characteristics, some more easily then others and, given the total number of pits in this country and the drop-in-the-bucket number of attacks and fatalities....there can't be many people doing that, certainly not enough to justify ineffective breed ban legislation.

The extraordinary thing about dogs of any breed is how remarkably flexible they are. The rehabilitation rate for vicious dogs is much higher than that for human beings.

 

[Luissa]

Luissa, that looks exactly like a picture of my Staffy/PB. There's only one thing wrong; the cat would be limp.

After my son found her chained in the basement of an abandoned rental, he brought her home and made her our family pet. She was as gentle as she could be but it was in her nature to despise small creatures. We installed a 100 foot long line which she could travel along and 15' on both sides. Then I put a chain link fence around about an acre so she could have free rein there. Son loved her but was too busy to walk her as much as she needed. I began to walk her every night for about an hour. They absolutely do need that kind of care, and attention. At the time we had 40-acres but that wasn't enough that cats wouldn't enter her domain.

They are naturally a loving breed, which desperately needs human interaction, and as fond as we all were of ours, I believe the breeding of them should be discouraged because of the way people who will own them will tend to them. I think the insurance requirements for PBs (as well as other breeds) actually discourages more responsible people from becoming owners

Marley was a very loving dog, that cat even used to suck on her nipples. She was also a big baby and would cry often. She was my brother's dog but she pretty much lived with us for awhile. I remember one time when I was dog sitting, I woke up sleeping on her(she probably got up on the bed for that reason). My brother was a responsible owner but she could be scary at times, just because her head and mouth are so big, and I have seen her eat a hamburger in one bite.

 

[Anguille]

The poll shows that people have smartened up about breed specific laws.

 

[manifold]

I still crack up at the retards who claim that breeding differences don't matter.


Nothing could be more ignorant.

As always, both nature AND nurture matter. And no amount of nurturing can EVER compeletely suppress what nature has designed.

When a retriever snaps, you get a nasty bite. When a pit bull snaps someone just might lose their life.

Big difference.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Thoughts?

There is no more of a problem bringing a Pitt Bull around people than any other large dog.

The problem arises from abusive owners of ANY DOG. It doesn't have to be a pit bull.

Do you know what dog breed, In the USA, is the one that bites people and breaks the skin most often? If not I will tell

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

I still crack up at the retards who claim that breeding differences don't matter.


Nothing could be more ignorant.

As always, both nature AND nurture matter. And no amount of nurturing can EVER compeletely suppress what nature has designed.

When a retriever snaps, you get a nasty bite. When a pit bull snaps someone just might lose their life.

Big difference.

Figures the post right above mine

That is a good point that a Pit has MUCH MUCH MUCH stronger bite than most dogs.

 

[xotoxi]

Is it fair to have pit bulls around other people?

By "other people", are you referring to cops?

If so, then no. It's not fair to the pitbulls, as they are liable to get tased.

 

[Coyote]

Thoughts?

There is no more of a problem bringing a Pitt Bull around people than any other large dog.

The problem arises from abusive owners of ANY DOG. It doesn't have to be a pit bull.

Do you know what dog breed, In the USA, is the one that bites people and breaks the skin most often? If not I will tell

Dachsund!

 

[manifold]

That is a good point that a Pit has MUCH MUCH MUCH stronger bite than most dogs.

Exactly.

Most people do not understand that when accounting for risk, you can't ONLY consider the probability of a bad thing happening, but must also consider the amount of damage that will occur if it does.

When you consider BOTH, the risk associated with pit bulls dwarfs all other breeds.

true story.