Is America A Christian Nation?

[ding]

No. That's the Supreme Court's interpretation of the 14th Amendment which did that.

The framers of the 14th Amendment never intended it to do that because they literally debated an amendment that would have precluded the states from establishing state religions but that was defeated in the Senate. See Blaine Amendment.

So we can say with 100% certainty that the framers of the 14th never intended the 14th Amendment to apply to the 1st Amendment and we can also say with 100% certainty that the establishment clause granting states the right to form state religions is still 100% in effect because that amendment was never re-written or repealed.

The 14th Amendment and the Bill of Rights | | Tenth Amendment Center

And the Constitution is very secular in nature. Not one mention of Christianity.

But was written for a moral and religious people.

How can that be when your gods are not mentioned in the Constitution.

Because that is exactly what our founding fathers believed.

The fact that you cannot accept this truth, kind of proves their point.

More of your ".... because I say so" claims. There is no reason to accept that you are the spokesperson for the signers of the Constitution.

They aren't my claims, Hollie. They are literally statements made by the founding fathers.

 

[ding]

Patrick Henry Letter to Archibald Blair, January 8, 1799


“The great pillars of all government and of social life [are] virtue, morality, and religion. This is the armor…and this alone, that renders us invincible.”

Moses Coit Tyler, Patrick Henry (New York: Houghton Mifflin Co., 1898; reprint, Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 1962), 409.

 

[Hollie]

The words of John Adams reinforces the fact that the Constitution is a secular document.


In the 1790s pirates of Tripoli (in what is now called Libya) were destroying U.S. shipping and holding U.S. seamen as prisoners. It was a serious problem and a series of negotiators were sent to try to put together an agreement to improve it. The Treaty of Tripoli was one outcome.

U.S. Marine Hymn anyone? "... the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli..."

President John Adams sent the treaty to the Senate in late May 1797. It was, according to the official record, read aloud, including the famous words, on the floor of the senate and copies were printed for every Senator. A committee considered the treaty and recommended ratification. Twenty-three Senators voted to ratify. In a very public way, they voted to say that "As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion, . . ." the Muslims of Tripoli therefore need not fear a religious war from the U.S. The vote was unanimous! There is no record of any debate or dissension on the treaty.

That isn't the argument, Hollie. The argument is did the Founding Fathers believe we could remain free without religion and virtue. The answer to that is yes, that is exactly what they believed.

The Constitution was written as a secular document to allow religious freedoms. To keep the federal government out of religion. Their expectation was that if we ever became godless we would lose our liberty and freedom.

Your ".... because I say so" arguments are nonsense.

The Constitution makes no mention of your gods.

I didn't say it did, Hollie. I said our founding fathers believed we would lose our liberty and freedom if we ever became godless.

Nonsense. There is no reason to accept your re-writing of the Constitution.

I am not re-writing the constitution. I am showing you the beliefs of the founding fathers.

No, actually, you cut and pasted a few quotes and then decided you would announce what the framers of the Constitution believed.

 

[Hollie]

And the Constitution is very secular in nature. Not one mention of Christianity.

But was written for a moral and religious people.

How can that be when your gods are not mentioned in the Constitution.

Because that is exactly what our founding fathers believed.

The fact that you cannot accept this truth, kind of proves their point.

More of your ".... because I say so" claims. There is no reason to accept that you are the spokesperson for the signers of the Constitution.

They aren't my claims, Hollie. They are literally statements made by the founding fathers.

They are a few cut and paste "quotes". Nothing more.

We're still left with the fact of a secular Constitution.

 

[ding]

John Jay, Original Chief-Justice of the U. S. Supreme Court , "The Bible is the best of all books, for it is the word of God and teaches us the way to be happy in this world and in the next. Continue therefore to read it and to regulate your life by its precepts."

 

[ding]

James Wilson, Signer of the Constitution; U. S. Supreme Court Justice, "Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine. . . . Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other."

 

[Hollie]

John Jay, Original Chief-Justice of the U. S. Supreme Court , "The Bible is the best of all books, for it is the word of God and teaches us the way to be happy in this world and in the next. Continue therefore to read it and to regulate your life by its precepts."

Nothing at all to do with the Constitution.

 

[ding]

But was written for a moral and religious people.

How can that be when your gods are not mentioned in the Constitution.

Because that is exactly what our founding fathers believed.

The fact that you cannot accept this truth, kind of proves their point.

More of your ".... because I say so" claims. There is no reason to accept that you are the spokesperson for the signers of the Constitution.

They aren't my claims, Hollie. They are literally statements made by the founding fathers.

They are a few cut and paste "quotes". Nothing more.

We're still left with the fact of a secular Constitution.

It's a small sample of hundreds of quotes the Founding Fathers made in regards to the importance of a religious and moral people in a successful Republican Democracy.

 

[BreezeWood]

Gouverneur Morris, Penman and Signer of the Constitution."[F]or avoiding the extremes of despotism or anarchy . . . the only ground of hope must be on the morals of the people. I believe that religion is the only solid base of morals and that morals are the only possible support of free governments. [T]herefore education should teach the precepts of religion and the duties of man towards God."

None of your cutting and pasting has anything to do with a secular Constitution.

You mean besides the fact that the constitution allowed for states to establish state religions?

.

You mean besides the fact that the constitution allowed for states to establish state religions?

the 14th amendment prohibits states from establishing a state religion -

All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

among other states rights provocations.

No. That's the Supreme Court's interpretation of the 14th Amendment which did that.

The framers of the 14th Amendment never intended it to do that because they literally debated an amendment that would have precluded the states from establishing state religions but that was defeated in the Senate. See Blaine Amendment.

So we can say with 100% certainty that the framers of the 14th never intended the 14th Amendment to apply to the 1st Amendment and we can also say with 100% certainty that the establishment clause granting states the right to form state religions is still 100% in effect because that amendment was never re-written or repealed.

The 14th Amendment and the Bill of Rights | | Tenth Amendment Center

.
The Reconstruction Amendments are the Thirteenth, Fourteenth, and Fifteenth amendments to the United States Constitution, passed between 1865 and 1870, the five years immediately following the Civil War.

those amendments secured the rights for all people, not just citizens ... ordered unto the states.

the fact there are no state religions speaks for itself - the time of the bible belt is passing you by, bing.

 

[Hollie]

James Wilson, Signer of the Constitution; U. S. Supreme Court Justice, "Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine. . . . Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other."

Still no mention of your various gods anywhere in the Constitution.

 

[presonorek]

Dear Hollie and ding,

Both of you have made the same point ad naseum. Can we just agree that Hollie's point is verifiable by reading the constitution? Can we also agree that verifying the feelings and thoughts of dead men is impossible?

Respectfully,

vasuderatorrent

 

[Hollie]

How can that be when your gods are not mentioned in the Constitution.

Because that is exactly what our founding fathers believed.

The fact that you cannot accept this truth, kind of proves their point.

More of your ".... because I say so" claims. There is no reason to accept that you are the spokesperson for the signers of the Constitution.

They aren't my claims, Hollie. They are literally statements made by the founding fathers.

They are a few cut and paste "quotes". Nothing more.

We're still left with the fact of a secular Constitution.

It's a small sample of hundreds of quotes the Founding Fathers made in regards to the importance of a religious and moral people in a successful Republican Democracy.

And you will notice that no mention of your gods appears in the Constitution.

 

[Hollie]

Dear Hollie and ding,

Both of you have made the same point ad naseum. Can we just agree that Hollie's point is verifiable by reading the constitution? Can we also agree that verifying the feelings and thoughts of dead men is impossible?

Respectfully,

vasuderatorrent

That's truly the point. We don't have to verify anyone's feelings. We can read what the framers wrote.

The wording of the Constitution is clearly meant to encompass numerous beliefs, extant at the time, to cover the general consensus of beliefs. Hence, deistic terms like "Creator" and "Nature's God", "divine Providence" and the quite evident lack of reference to Jesus and Yahweh (despite robust debate to include them). The closest reference is to a "Supreme Judge", but of course that could be Amun Ra, couldn't it?

Could the FF's have envisioned Scientology? Or Mormonism? Or Christian Science? Yes and no. They knew that religions propagate and they knew that once in control, religious tenets are biased towards themselves and poorly disposed towards competitive beliefs systems. We don't have to assume their intent -- even if they were Christians (and some of 'em were), the intent is clear: the state is precluded from dictating any and all religious conscience to any free people. Hence, the First Amendment.

The entire constitution defines rules that limit the government's involvement in the citizen's lives. It is clearly a muzzle on the state's ability to dictate to the citizenry what it can and cannot do within the paradigm of the federal mandate. Certainly rule of law is to be enforced, but that is also controlled at the local level. It does not take any stretch of imagination to understand that the framers of the constitution intended to place limits such that government is restrained from interfering with individual freedoms.

 

[ding]

Dear Hollie and ding,

Both of you have made the same point ad naseum. Can we just agree that Hollie's point is verifiable by reading the constitution? Can we also agree that verifying the feelings and thoughts of dead men is impossible?

Respectfully,

vasuderatorrent

Dude, I never said the constitution wasn’t a secular document.

You will find out for yourself soon enough what she is about.

 

[sealybobo]

I'm with you. The Framers of the Constitution clearly did not want a State religion. However, the majority of the people in the US have always been Christian.

Doesn't matter that the majority were christians.

One of the key questions is why did George Washington refuse to take communion for most of his adult life? For the serious Christian, such refusal is an act of self-excommunication.

More important, defenders have to explain why George Washington occupied the rank of Grand Master in the Masonic lodge. Each promotion in the Masonic lodge requires taking an anti-Christian oath?

In spite of right-wing Christian attempts to rewrite history to make Jefferson into a Christian, little about his philosophy resembles that of Christianity. Although Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence wrote of the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God, there exists nothing in the Declaration about Christianity.

Jefferson created his own New Testament that removed all supernatural acts of Christ.

The Book of Revelations warns that taking away from or adding to scripture is a highly blasphemous act with extreme punishment. Thomas Jefferson doesn't sound like a God fearing man at all.

There are alternate history books that paint our forefathers as faithful Christians. If the United States ever was a Christian theocracy then it was for a brief period in the 1950's. There was a lot of rewriting of history during the 1950s. A lot of the leaders of that time were promoting these types of lies. That's why we hear it so much today. The indoctrinated children of the 1950s are currently at the age that is ripe for government service. They firmly believe the United States is a Christian nation. They grew up in an environment where that premise was never challenged.

Yes I saw that story about this era where Christians really pushed to make us a Christian nation.

They even put in god we trust on the dollar

In the U.S., we are by definition a secular nation -- there was considerable debate among the Founding Fathers about the entire god issue-- and the constitution is quite secular.

One can argue far better that having come from theocracies themselves the Founding Fathers were very much aware of the dangers of blending religion and government. Even if they personally believed -- they purposely ratified a constitution that was totally secular in nature (and intent). They clearly did not wish to eradicate religion which is why they enacted a muzzle on government to keep religious expression free. However, the result of this by definition means the gov't cannot exalt one religion over another. Keep Christianity in culture, whether or not Christianity is dominant or not, but do not allow the government to assert it or any other religion over the other. The only way to do that is to be neutral on the issue of religion at all. As the country does become more diversified and embraces more religious beliefs (including none) the Constitution is designed to evolve to include those concerns. The Founding Fathers would, I believe, note their legal design has worked quite well.

The founding fathers believed that religion and virtue were pillars of liberty and freedom. They believed that absent virtue and religion that liberty and freedom could not be maintained.

But keep it out of government.

They knew not to mix the two

 

[sealybobo]

In the U.S., we are by definition a secular nation -- there was considerable debate among the Founding Fathers about the entire god issue-- and the constitution is quite secular.

One can argue far better that having come from theocracies themselves the Founding Fathers were very much aware of the dangers of blending religion and government. Even if they personally believed -- they purposely ratified a constitution that was totally secular in nature (and intent). They clearly did not wish to eradicate religion which is why they enacted a muzzle on government to keep religious expression free. However, the result of this by definition means the gov't cannot exalt one religion over another. Keep Christianity in culture, whether or not Christianity is dominant or not, but do not allow the government to assert it or any other religion over the other. The only way to do that is to be neutral on the issue of religion at all. As the country does become more diversified and embraces more religious beliefs (including none) the Constitution is designed to evolve to include those concerns. The Founding Fathers would, I believe, note their legal design has worked quite well.

The founding fathers believed that religion and virtue were pillars of liberty and freedom. They believed that absent virtue and religion that liberty and freedom could not be maintained.

Another of your nonsense claims.

George Washington
Farewell Address, Sept 17, 1796

“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports...In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens...”

“…And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion...reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”

The Will of the People: Readings in American Democracy (Chicago: Great Books Foundation, 2001), 38.

And yet, the Constitution is a secular document.

And yet the establishment clause of the 1st Amendment was written to prevent the federal government from interfering with the established religions of the states of which half had at the time the constitution was ratified.

Yea sure government shouldn’t get involved with religion. So? Don’t interfere. Don’t bother them. Don’t try to establish a national religion.

But certainly keep the two separated

 

[sealybobo]

In the U.S., we are by definition a secular nation -- there was considerable debate among the Founding Fathers about the entire god issue-- and the constitution is quite secular.

One can argue far better that having come from theocracies themselves the Founding Fathers were very much aware of the dangers of blending religion and government. Even if they personally believed -- they purposely ratified a constitution that was totally secular in nature (and intent). They clearly did not wish to eradicate religion which is why they enacted a muzzle on government to keep religious expression free. However, the result of this by definition means the gov't cannot exalt one religion over another. Keep Christianity in culture, whether or not Christianity is dominant or not, but do not allow the government to assert it or any other religion over the other. The only way to do that is to be neutral on the issue of religion at all. As the country does become more diversified and embraces more religious beliefs (including none) the Constitution is designed to evolve to include those concerns. The Founding Fathers would, I believe, note their legal design has worked quite well.

The founding fathers believed that religion and virtue were pillars of liberty and freedom. They believed that absent virtue and religion that liberty and freedom could not be maintained.

Another of your nonsense claims.

So you are concedings this point?

You never made a point.

I think that ding was referring to John Adam's comments that says freedom and liberty cannot exist without a virtuous and religious population.

The point he was trying to make is this: When people become hedonistic and self serving government will be required to trample freedom to ensure peace and order.

I think that is what he meant. Are you conceding that point to ding? and accepting that as accurate?

That was John Adams opinion. He wasn’t a saint was he?

 

[Meriweather]

We don't have to assume their intent -- even if they were Christians (and some of 'em were), the intent is clear: the state is precluded from dictating any and all religious conscience to any free people. Hence, the First Amendment.

The intent was that there would be no State religion. Remember the world was just emerging from a time when the religion of the ruler was the religion of all its citizenry as well.

Having taken this bold step, the Founding Fathers reminded everyone that a democratic type of government would fail, could not stand, unless the citizenry was moral, virtuous, and/or practice a religion. Therefore, here is our check list:

• No State religion (check)
• Citizens today are moral (?)
• Citizens today are virtuous (?)
• Citizens today practice a religion (Fewer today)

Don't get me wrong. Some citizens are moral and virtuous. But are there fewer that are moral and virtuous? What percentage of people in America in the late 1700s were moral, virtuous, or practiced a religion? What is that percentage today? Are we sliding? Or, is today pretty much the same as yesteryear?

Polls have already pointed out that practice of religion is sliding? We can see sexual morality and as a result family stability is sliding. Which leaves virtue....Are enough people virtuous to at least hold that ground?

The Founding Fathers of that day were confident the citizenry of their time had what it takes to sustain a democracy. Obviously, they could also imagine the democratic government failure that would occur if the citizenry's morals, virtues, and religious practices failed.

 

[Likkmee]

America IS The Great Satan ,modern day Babylon if you take that angle. Nothing but evil exists there

 

[anynameyouwish]

We don't have to assume their intent -- even if they were Christians (and some of 'em were), the intent is clear: the state is precluded from dictating any and all religious conscience to any free people. Hence, the First Amendment.

The intent was that there would be no State religion. Remember the world was just emerging from a time when the religion of the ruler was the religion of all its citizenry as well.

Having taken this bold step, the Founding Fathers reminded everyone that a democratic type of government would fail, could not stand, unless the citizenry was moral, virtuous, and/or practice a religion. Therefore, here is our check list:

• No State religion (check)
• Citizens today are moral (?)
• Citizens today are virtuous (?)
• Citizens today practice a religion (Fewer today)

Don't get me wrong. Some citizens are moral and virtuous. But are there fewer that are moral and virtuous? What percentage of people in America in the late 1700s were moral, virtuous, or practiced a religion? What is that percentage today? Are we sliding? Or, is today pretty much the same as yesteryear?

Polls have already pointed out that practice of religion is sliding? We can see sexual morality and as a result family stability is sliding. Which leaves virtue....Are enough people virtuous to at least hold that ground?

The Founding Fathers of that day were confident the citizenry of their time had what it takes to sustain a democracy. Obviously, they could also imagine the democratic government failure that would occur if the citizenry's morals, virtues, and religious practices failed.

"Having taken this bold step, the Founding Fathers reminded everyone that a democratic type of government would fail, could not stand, unless the citizenry was moral, virtuous, and/or practice a religion. Therefore, here is our check list:"

They were wrong about needing a religion.

And it is NOT FREEDOM if you FORCE RELIGION on people.

Teach morals and virtues (that we AGREE ON!)((NOT based on any religion)) in schools and in the home.

fuk.

I do.

"hey son....it is BAD to steal!" "stealing is WRONG!"....

see?
no religion needed!

or..."saying FUCK is BAD! so you must use a euphemism that we all know means FUCK but isn't the actual word!"

we do NOT need religion to instill morals, values and virtues.



" No State religion (check)
Citizens today are moral (?)
Citizens today are virtuous (?)
Citizens today practice a religion (Fewer today)"

1. We never HAD a state religion.
So the people of the past that you think were more moral and vituous (they weren't, actually) didn't become that way through a STATE RELIGION.

They learned it in SCHOOLS and at HOME...

hmmmmmm....

Now who just said that....?

oh yes! ME!

2. And those moral and virtuous people allowed blacks to be slaves
beat slaves
lynched blacks
refused to allow blacks and women to be educated
denied basic human rights to blacks and women
persecuted and kill homosexuals


Is THAT what you want?