Is America A Christian Nation?

[presonorek]

Yes I saw that story about this era where Christians really pushed to make us a Christian nation.

They even put in god we trust on the dollar

In the U.S., we are by definition a secular nation -- there was considerable debate among the Founding Fathers about the entire god issue-- and the constitution is quite secular.

One can argue far better that having come from theocracies themselves the Founding Fathers were very much aware of the dangers of blending religion and government. Even if they personally believed -- they purposely ratified a constitution that was totally secular in nature (and intent). They clearly did not wish to eradicate religion which is why they enacted a muzzle on government to keep religious expression free. However, the result of this by definition means the gov't cannot exalt one religion over another. Keep Christianity in culture, whether or not Christianity is dominant or not, but do not allow the government to assert it or any other religion over the other. The only way to do that is to be neutral on the issue of religion at all. As the country does become more diversified and embraces more religious beliefs (including none) the Constitution is designed to evolve to include those concerns. The Founding Fathers would, I believe, note their legal design has worked quite well.

The founding fathers believed that religion and virtue were pillars of liberty and freedom. They believed that absent virtue and religion that liberty and freedom could not be maintained.

Another of your nonsense claims.

So you are concedings this point?

You never made a point.

I think that ding was referring to John Adam's comments that says freedom and liberty cannot exist without a virtuous and religious population.

The point he was trying to make is this: When people become hedonistic and self serving government will be required to trample freedom to ensure peace and order.

I think that is what he meant. Are you conceding that point to ding? and accepting that as accurate?

 

[ding]

So you are concedings this point?

You never made a point.

My point was The founding fathers believed that religion and virtue were pillars of liberty and freedom. They believed that absent virtue and religion that liberty and freedom could not be maintained.

You simply cut and pasted a few “quotes”.

Can you find any examples of Founding Fathers who didn't believe that virtue and religion were necessary to maintain liberty and freedom?

Yes. There are many. Why don’t you cut and paste a few.

No. There aren't. I looked. Prove me wrong.

 

[Hollie]

So the American Founding Fathers believed that virtue and morality were necessary for liberty and freedom to be maintained. This fact is undisputed.

What did the founding fathers of communism believe?

None of your cutting and pasting refutes the fact of a secular Constitution.

But you agree with me that the founding fathers believed that virtue and religion were necessary for liberty and freedom, right?

But you agree you’re attempting to make an argument with a few cut and paste quotes.

It's called evidence, Hollie. Do you have any?

Nothing in your cutting and pasting refutes a secular Constitution.

 

[ding]

In the U.S., we are by definition a secular nation -- there was considerable debate among the Founding Fathers about the entire god issue-- and the constitution is quite secular.

One can argue far better that having come from theocracies themselves the Founding Fathers were very much aware of the dangers of blending religion and government. Even if they personally believed -- they purposely ratified a constitution that was totally secular in nature (and intent). They clearly did not wish to eradicate religion which is why they enacted a muzzle on government to keep religious expression free. However, the result of this by definition means the gov't cannot exalt one religion over another. Keep Christianity in culture, whether or not Christianity is dominant or not, but do not allow the government to assert it or any other religion over the other. The only way to do that is to be neutral on the issue of religion at all. As the country does become more diversified and embraces more religious beliefs (including none) the Constitution is designed to evolve to include those concerns. The Founding Fathers would, I believe, note their legal design has worked quite well.

The founding fathers believed that religion and virtue were pillars of liberty and freedom. They believed that absent virtue and religion that liberty and freedom could not be maintained.

Another of your nonsense claims.

So you are concedings this point?

You never made a point.

I think that ding was referring to John Adam's comments that says freedom and liberty cannot exist without a virtuous and religious population.

The point he was trying to make is this: When people become hedonistic and self serving government will be required to trample freedom to ensure peace and order.

I think that is what he meant. Are you conceding that point to ding? and accepting that as accurate?

John Adams, “Letter to Zabdiel Adams, Philadelphia, 21 June 1776”

“Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand.” John Adams Letter of June 21, 1776

The Works of John Adams – Second President of theUnited States, ed. Charles Francis Adams (Boston: Little, Brown & Co., 1854), 9:401.

 

[ding]

So the American Founding Fathers believed that virtue and morality were necessary for liberty and freedom to be maintained. This fact is undisputed.

What did the founding fathers of communism believe?

None of your cutting and pasting refutes the fact of a secular Constitution.

But you agree with me that the founding fathers believed that virtue and religion were necessary for liberty and freedom, right?

But you agree you’re attempting to make an argument with a few cut and paste quotes.

It's called evidence, Hollie. Do you have any?

Nothing in your cutting and pasting refutes a secular Constitution.

You argued that it was nonsense that the founding fathers believed that virtue and religion were necessary for liberty and freedom, Hollie.

I am showing you the proof that you are wrong about that.

 

[ding]

Samuel Adams Letter to John Trumbull, October 16, 1778

“Religion and good morals are the only solid foundations of public liberty and happiness.”

Paul H. Smith, Gerard W. Gawalt, Rosemary Fry Plakes, et. al., Letters of Delegates to Congress, 1774-1789, volume 11, October 1 1778-January 31 1779.

 

[presonorek]

So the American Founding Fathers believed that virtue and morality were necessary for liberty and freedom to be maintained. This fact is undisputed.

What did the founding fathers of communism believe?

None of your cutting and pasting refutes the fact of a secular Constitution.

But you agree with me that the founding fathers believed that virtue and religion were necessary for liberty and freedom, right?

But you agree you’re attempting to make an argument with a few cut and paste quotes.

It's called evidence, Hollie. Do you have any?

Nothing in your cutting and pasting refutes a secular Constitution.

I think he copy and pasted a statement made by John Adam's that might explain it better.

 

[BreezeWood]

Gouverneur Morris, Penman and Signer of the Constitution."[F]or avoiding the extremes of despotism or anarchy . . . the only ground of hope must be on the morals of the people. I believe that religion is the only solid base of morals and that morals are the only possible support of free governments. [T]herefore education should teach the precepts of religion and the duties of man towards God."

None of your cutting and pasting has anything to do with a secular Constitution.

You mean besides the fact that the constitution allowed for states to establish state religions?

.

You mean besides the fact that the constitution allowed for states to establish state religions?

the 14th amendment prohibits states from establishing a state religion -

All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

among other states rights provocations.

 

[ding]

Gouverneur Morris, Penman and Signer of the Constitution."[F]or avoiding the extremes of despotism or anarchy . . . the only ground of hope must be on the morals of the people. I believe that religion is the only solid base of morals and that morals are the only possible support of free governments. [T]herefore education should teach the precepts of religion and the duties of man towards God."

None of your cutting and pasting has anything to do with a secular Constitution.

You mean besides the fact that the constitution allowed for states to establish state religions?

.

You mean besides the fact that the constitution allowed for states to establish state religions?

the 14th amendment prohibits states from establishing a state religion -

All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

among other states rights provocations.

No. That's the Supreme Court's interpretation of the 14th Amendment which did that.

The framers of the 14th Amendment never intended it to do that because they literally debated an amendment that would have precluded the states from establishing state religions but that was defeated in the Senate. See Blaine Amendment.

So we can say with 100% certainty that the framers of the 14th never intended the 14th Amendment to apply to the 1st Amendment and we can also say with 100% certainty that the establishment clause granting states the right to form state religions is still 100% in effect because that amendment was never re-written or repealed.

The 14th Amendment and the Bill of Rights | | Tenth Amendment Center

 

[Hollie]

None of your cutting and pasting refutes the fact of a secular Constitution.

But you agree with me that the founding fathers believed that virtue and religion were necessary for liberty and freedom, right?

But you agree you’re attempting to make an argument with a few cut and paste quotes.

It's called evidence, Hollie. Do you have any?

Nothing in your cutting and pasting refutes a secular Constitution.

I think he copy and pasted a statement made by John Adam's that might explain it better.

The words of John Adams reinforces the fact that the Constitution is a secular document.


In the 1790s pirates of Tripoli (in what is now called Libya) were destroying U.S. shipping and holding U.S. seamen as prisoners. It was a serious problem and a series of negotiators were sent to try to put together an agreement to improve it. The Treaty of Tripoli was one outcome.

U.S. Marine Hymn anyone? "... the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli..."

President John Adams sent the treaty to the Senate in late May 1797. It was, according to the official record, read aloud, including the famous words, on the floor of the senate and copies were printed for every Senator. A committee considered the treaty and recommended ratification. Twenty-three Senators voted to ratify. In a very public way, they voted to say that "As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion, . . ." the Muslims of Tripoli therefore need not fear a religious war from the U.S. The vote was unanimous! There is no record of any debate or dissension on the treaty.

 

[Hollie]

Gouverneur Morris, Penman and Signer of the Constitution."[F]or avoiding the extremes of despotism or anarchy . . . the only ground of hope must be on the morals of the people. I believe that religion is the only solid base of morals and that morals are the only possible support of free governments. [T]herefore education should teach the precepts of religion and the duties of man towards God."

None of your cutting and pasting has anything to do with a secular Constitution.

You mean besides the fact that the constitution allowed for states to establish state religions?

.

You mean besides the fact that the constitution allowed for states to establish state religions?

the 14th amendment prohibits states from establishing a state religion -

All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

among other states rights provocations.

No. That's the Supreme Court's interpretation of the 14th Amendment which did that.

The framers of the 14th Amendment never intended it to do that because they literally debated an amendment that would have precluded the states from establishing state religions but that was defeated in the Senate. See Blaine Amendment.

So we can say with 100% certainty that the framers of the 14th never intended the 14th Amendment to apply to the 1st Amendment and we can also say with 100% certainty that the establishment clause granting states the right to form state religions is still 100% in effect because that amendment was never re-written or repealed.

The 14th Amendment and the Bill of Rights | | Tenth Amendment Center

And the Constitution is very secular in nature. Not one mention of Christianity.

 

[ding]

But you agree with me that the founding fathers believed that virtue and religion were necessary for liberty and freedom, right?

But you agree you’re attempting to make an argument with a few cut and paste quotes.

It's called evidence, Hollie. Do you have any?

Nothing in your cutting and pasting refutes a secular Constitution.

I think he copy and pasted a statement made by John Adam's that might explain it better.

The words of John Adams reinforces the fact that the Constitution is a secular document.


In the 1790s pirates of Tripoli (in what is now called Libya) were destroying U.S. shipping and holding U.S. seamen as prisoners. It was a serious problem and a series of negotiators were sent to try to put together an agreement to improve it. The Treaty of Tripoli was one outcome.

U.S. Marine Hymn anyone? "... the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli..."

President John Adams sent the treaty to the Senate in late May 1797. It was, according to the official record, read aloud, including the famous words, on the floor of the senate and copies were printed for every Senator. A committee considered the treaty and recommended ratification. Twenty-three Senators voted to ratify. In a very public way, they voted to say that "As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion, . . ." the Muslims of Tripoli therefore need not fear a religious war from the U.S. The vote was unanimous! There is no record of any debate or dissension on the treaty.

That isn't the argument, Hollie. The argument is did the Founding Fathers believe we could remain free without religion and virtue.

The Constitution was written as a secular document to allow religious freedoms. To keep the federal government out of religion. Their expectation was that if we ever became godless we would lose our liberty and freedom.

 

[ding]

Gouverneur Morris, Penman and Signer of the Constitution."[F]or avoiding the extremes of despotism or anarchy . . . the only ground of hope must be on the morals of the people. I believe that religion is the only solid base of morals and that morals are the only possible support of free governments. [T]herefore education should teach the precepts of religion and the duties of man towards God."

None of your cutting and pasting has anything to do with a secular Constitution.

You mean besides the fact that the constitution allowed for states to establish state religions?

.

You mean besides the fact that the constitution allowed for states to establish state religions?

the 14th amendment prohibits states from establishing a state religion -

All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

among other states rights provocations.

No. That's the Supreme Court's interpretation of the 14th Amendment which did that.

The framers of the 14th Amendment never intended it to do that because they literally debated an amendment that would have precluded the states from establishing state religions but that was defeated in the Senate. See Blaine Amendment.

So we can say with 100% certainty that the framers of the 14th never intended the 14th Amendment to apply to the 1st Amendment and we can also say with 100% certainty that the establishment clause granting states the right to form state religions is still 100% in effect because that amendment was never re-written or repealed.

The 14th Amendment and the Bill of Rights | | Tenth Amendment Center

And the Constitution is very secular in nature. Not one mention of Christianity.

But was written for a moral and religious people.

 

[Hollie]

But you agree you’re attempting to make an argument with a few cut and paste quotes.

It's called evidence, Hollie. Do you have any?

Nothing in your cutting and pasting refutes a secular Constitution.

I think he copy and pasted a statement made by John Adam's that might explain it better.

The words of John Adams reinforces the fact that the Constitution is a secular document.


In the 1790s pirates of Tripoli (in what is now called Libya) were destroying U.S. shipping and holding U.S. seamen as prisoners. It was a serious problem and a series of negotiators were sent to try to put together an agreement to improve it. The Treaty of Tripoli was one outcome.

U.S. Marine Hymn anyone? "... the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli..."

President John Adams sent the treaty to the Senate in late May 1797. It was, according to the official record, read aloud, including the famous words, on the floor of the senate and copies were printed for every Senator. A committee considered the treaty and recommended ratification. Twenty-three Senators voted to ratify. In a very public way, they voted to say that "As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion, . . ." the Muslims of Tripoli therefore need not fear a religious war from the U.S. The vote was unanimous! There is no record of any debate or dissension on the treaty.

That isn't the argument, Hollie. The argument is did the Founding Fathers believe we could remain free without religion and virtue. The answer to that is yes, that is exactly what they believed.

The Constitution was written as a secular document to allow religious freedoms. To keep the federal government out of religion. Their expectation was that if we ever became godless we would lose our liberty and freedom.

Your ".... because I say so" arguments are nonsense.

The Constitution makes no mention of your gods.

 

[Hollie]

None of your cutting and pasting has anything to do with a secular Constitution.

You mean besides the fact that the constitution allowed for states to establish state religions?

.

You mean besides the fact that the constitution allowed for states to establish state religions?

the 14th amendment prohibits states from establishing a state religion -

All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

among other states rights provocations.

No. That's the Supreme Court's interpretation of the 14th Amendment which did that.

The framers of the 14th Amendment never intended it to do that because they literally debated an amendment that would have precluded the states from establishing state religions but that was defeated in the Senate. See Blaine Amendment.

So we can say with 100% certainty that the framers of the 14th never intended the 14th Amendment to apply to the 1st Amendment and we can also say with 100% certainty that the establishment clause granting states the right to form state religions is still 100% in effect because that amendment was never re-written or repealed.

The 14th Amendment and the Bill of Rights | | Tenth Amendment Center

And the Constitution is very secular in nature. Not one mention of Christianity.

But was written for a moral and religious people.

How can that be when your gods are not mentioned in the Constitution.

 

[ding]

It's called evidence, Hollie. Do you have any?

Nothing in your cutting and pasting refutes a secular Constitution.

I think he copy and pasted a statement made by John Adam's that might explain it better.

The words of John Adams reinforces the fact that the Constitution is a secular document.


In the 1790s pirates of Tripoli (in what is now called Libya) were destroying U.S. shipping and holding U.S. seamen as prisoners. It was a serious problem and a series of negotiators were sent to try to put together an agreement to improve it. The Treaty of Tripoli was one outcome.

U.S. Marine Hymn anyone? "... the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli..."

President John Adams sent the treaty to the Senate in late May 1797. It was, according to the official record, read aloud, including the famous words, on the floor of the senate and copies were printed for every Senator. A committee considered the treaty and recommended ratification. Twenty-three Senators voted to ratify. In a very public way, they voted to say that "As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion, . . ." the Muslims of Tripoli therefore need not fear a religious war from the U.S. The vote was unanimous! There is no record of any debate or dissension on the treaty.

That isn't the argument, Hollie. The argument is did the Founding Fathers believe we could remain free without religion and virtue. The answer to that is yes, that is exactly what they believed.

The Constitution was written as a secular document to allow religious freedoms. To keep the federal government out of religion. Their expectation was that if we ever became godless we would lose our liberty and freedom.

Your ".... because I say so" arguments are nonsense.

The Constitution makes no mention of your gods.

I didn't say it did, Hollie. I said our founding fathers believed we would lose our liberty and freedom if we ever became godless.

 

[ding]

You mean besides the fact that the constitution allowed for states to establish state religions?

.

You mean besides the fact that the constitution allowed for states to establish state religions?

the 14th amendment prohibits states from establishing a state religion -

All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

among other states rights provocations.

No. That's the Supreme Court's interpretation of the 14th Amendment which did that.

The framers of the 14th Amendment never intended it to do that because they literally debated an amendment that would have precluded the states from establishing state religions but that was defeated in the Senate. See Blaine Amendment.

So we can say with 100% certainty that the framers of the 14th never intended the 14th Amendment to apply to the 1st Amendment and we can also say with 100% certainty that the establishment clause granting states the right to form state religions is still 100% in effect because that amendment was never re-written or repealed.

The 14th Amendment and the Bill of Rights | | Tenth Amendment Center

And the Constitution is very secular in nature. Not one mention of Christianity.

But was written for a moral and religious people.

How can that be when your gods are not mentioned in the Constitution.

Because that is exactly what our founding fathers believed.

The fact that you cannot accept this truth, kind of proves their point.

 

[Hollie]

Nothing in your cutting and pasting refutes a secular Constitution.

I think he copy and pasted a statement made by John Adam's that might explain it better.

The words of John Adams reinforces the fact that the Constitution is a secular document.


In the 1790s pirates of Tripoli (in what is now called Libya) were destroying U.S. shipping and holding U.S. seamen as prisoners. It was a serious problem and a series of negotiators were sent to try to put together an agreement to improve it. The Treaty of Tripoli was one outcome.

U.S. Marine Hymn anyone? "... the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli..."

President John Adams sent the treaty to the Senate in late May 1797. It was, according to the official record, read aloud, including the famous words, on the floor of the senate and copies were printed for every Senator. A committee considered the treaty and recommended ratification. Twenty-three Senators voted to ratify. In a very public way, they voted to say that "As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion, . . ." the Muslims of Tripoli therefore need not fear a religious war from the U.S. The vote was unanimous! There is no record of any debate or dissension on the treaty.

That isn't the argument, Hollie. The argument is did the Founding Fathers believe we could remain free without religion and virtue. The answer to that is yes, that is exactly what they believed.

The Constitution was written as a secular document to allow religious freedoms. To keep the federal government out of religion. Their expectation was that if we ever became godless we would lose our liberty and freedom.

Your ".... because I say so" arguments are nonsense.

The Constitution makes no mention of your gods.

I didn't say it did, Hollie. I said our founding fathers believed we would lose our liberty and freedom if we ever became godless.

Nonsense. There is no reason to accept your re-writing of the Constitution.

 

[ding]

I think he copy and pasted a statement made by John Adam's that might explain it better.

The words of John Adams reinforces the fact that the Constitution is a secular document.


In the 1790s pirates of Tripoli (in what is now called Libya) were destroying U.S. shipping and holding U.S. seamen as prisoners. It was a serious problem and a series of negotiators were sent to try to put together an agreement to improve it. The Treaty of Tripoli was one outcome.

U.S. Marine Hymn anyone? "... the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli..."

President John Adams sent the treaty to the Senate in late May 1797. It was, according to the official record, read aloud, including the famous words, on the floor of the senate and copies were printed for every Senator. A committee considered the treaty and recommended ratification. Twenty-three Senators voted to ratify. In a very public way, they voted to say that "As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion, . . ." the Muslims of Tripoli therefore need not fear a religious war from the U.S. The vote was unanimous! There is no record of any debate or dissension on the treaty.

That isn't the argument, Hollie. The argument is did the Founding Fathers believe we could remain free without religion and virtue. The answer to that is yes, that is exactly what they believed.

The Constitution was written as a secular document to allow religious freedoms. To keep the federal government out of religion. Their expectation was that if we ever became godless we would lose our liberty and freedom.

Your ".... because I say so" arguments are nonsense.

The Constitution makes no mention of your gods.

I didn't say it did, Hollie. I said our founding fathers believed we would lose our liberty and freedom if we ever became godless.

Nonsense. There is no reason to accept your re-writing of the Constitution.

I am not re-writing the constitution. I am showing you the beliefs of the founding fathers.

 

[Hollie]

.
the 14th amendment prohibits states from establishing a state religion -

All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

among other states rights provocations.

No. That's the Supreme Court's interpretation of the 14th Amendment which did that.

The framers of the 14th Amendment never intended it to do that because they literally debated an amendment that would have precluded the states from establishing state religions but that was defeated in the Senate. See Blaine Amendment.

So we can say with 100% certainty that the framers of the 14th never intended the 14th Amendment to apply to the 1st Amendment and we can also say with 100% certainty that the establishment clause granting states the right to form state religions is still 100% in effect because that amendment was never re-written or repealed.

The 14th Amendment and the Bill of Rights | | Tenth Amendment Center

And the Constitution is very secular in nature. Not one mention of Christianity.

But was written for a moral and religious people.

How can that be when your gods are not mentioned in the Constitution.

Because that is exactly what our founding fathers believed.

The fact that you cannot accept this truth, kind of proves their point.

More of your ".... because I say so" claims. There is no reason to accept that you are the spokesperson for the signers of the Constitution.