India considering bailing on SU-57

[Daryl Hunt]

It would obviously make more sense to invest in something that is already in production, despite the fact that it would be older, simply because if it's not finished you don't know what you get.

there is no doubt that the F-35 is more technologically advanced than the SU-57 but the F-35 is heavily controlled and networked into America's favour. buying into the F-35 program, for a country like India wouldn't make sense due to the heavy net-centric nature of the F-35 technology. example: the U.S. air force will know the location of any Indian or foreign F-35 at any given time, its mission parameters, what its radars see, weapons and fuel status... and more importantly limit source code access. in effect, limiting India's ability to conduct sovereign use and upgrade without U.S. consent. something that the Russians would be more flexible about.

India would have more operational control and upgrade options over a Russian product than the F-35. I suspect that the Indians are trying to drive the SU-57 price down and get more independent access rather than abandon the SU-57 program and the billions it has invested up until now.

Nope. There is no way to drive the cost down. Until the engines and avionics it has promised is delivered, it's a turkey. Better to put the money against new fighters like the F-35A or SU-35. But the last thing anyone wants to invest in is anything the Chinese will offer for export. The Chinese have trouble in even getting the things delivered in one piece.

As for the US to be able to track all the F-35s in the world ,so what. It's not like the US will ever square off with the Indians. India as one of the more sane governments in the world. Don't look for the US to offer Pakistan any Lightning IIs anytime soon.

so the price of the F-35 can come down, according to you but the SU-57 can't? that doesn't sound right. operational controlled military hardware, especially for a regional power like India is paramount. spare parts, upgrades and confidentiality are all national issues that transcend the concept of "friends and allies." it wasn't that long ago that Turkey was also firmly in the Western camp. look at how that relationship has quickly soured. now there's rumblings in the U.S. that the F-35 secrets are not entirely safe with their NATO ally. Russian radars that Turkey is buying will be able to monitor and record F-35 electronic and flight signatures and the Russians will know all and who knows what else the Turks will give away to please their new Russian best mates. in fact, will Turkey even want the F-35 that can be grounded at a flick of a switch?

The, using a TV Phrase for Turkey, "No Soup for you Today".

Our own ground Radar is at least equal to the S-500 and it has real problems with both the F-22 and F-35. You will note that the 3 losses of F-35s during Redflag were done in day one of the exercise. They learned fast. Now, Ground and Air Radar have serious problems with the F-35. They know it's out there somewhere. They catch fleeting glimpses of it as it zigs and zags. But not enough to actually lock and fire on it. Then for a brief second or two,, it shows up on their scanned radar. Then it's gone again before they can lock and fire. Unfortunately, the reason it briefly shows up is because it's fired or dropped something. So you shut your system down and move your site as quick as you can hoping that there is enough time. Depending on the guidance system used by the guys with the white hats, you may be hit even when in transit with your system cold. The F-35 practices this and they have gotten very good at it.

 

[onaquest]

well you're assuming that the future opponents of the F-35 will not move ahead with radar and electronic warfare counter measures.

No I'm not, I'd assume they'd move ahead and so would the technology in the F-35 and weapons it carries. It isn't a new doctrine, it's a fact that most kills in modern air combat goes to the plane that gets first look and first shot, BVR wins.

well I hope you’re right. if the F-35 has an encounter within visual range then it’s in trouble.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

well you're assuming that the future opponents of the F-35 will not move ahead with radar and electronic warfare counter measures.

No I'm not, I'd assume they'd move ahead and so would the technology in the F-35 and weapons it carries. It isn't a new doctrine, it's a fact that most kills in modern air combat goes to the plane that gets first look and first shot, BVR wins.

well I hope you’re right. if the F-35 has an encounter within visual range then it’s in trouble.

And along with him will be at least 4 F-22s. You may not live long enough to get the job done.

You are under the impression it's going to be one on one. The Russians don't even play that game. Only in the movies.

 

[Bleipriester]

The Su-57 is still under development but Russia does not believe in "stealth" anyway.

 

[DrainBamage]

well I hope you’re right. if the F-35 has an encounter within visual range then it’s in trouble.

Why?

It's still got great situational awareness, a powerful engine, and better rudder control for increased angle of attack than most other aircraft. Obviously it's not an F-22 and it doesn't have a dominant advantage like in BVR but from pilot accounts it's no slouch as a dog fighter. Saying "it's in trouble" could be applied to just about any aircraft in a dogfight.

 

[DrainBamage]

The Su-57 is still under development but Russia does not believe in "stealth" anyway.

Have you ever typed anything in this forum that made sense or was correct? You seriously look at the blended edges and placement of engine intakes of an SU-57 and declare the Russian don't believe in stealth, it's almost like your purpose here is to look as foolish as possible with every post.

The Su-57 will be the first operational aircraft in Russian Air Force service to use stealth technology. Similar to other stealth fighters such as the F-22, the airframe incorporates planform edge alignment to reduce its radar cross-section (RCS); the leading and trailing edges of the wings and control surfaces and the serrated edges of skin panels are carefully aligned at several specific angles in order to reduce the number of directions the radar waves can be reflected.[86] Weapons are carried internally in weapons bays within the airframe, and antennas are recessed from the surface of the skin to preserve the aircraft's stealthy shape. The IRST housing is turned backwards when not in use, and its rear is treated with radar-absorbent material (RAM) to reduce its radar return. To mask the significant RCS contribution of the engine face, the partial serpentine inlet obscures most, but not all, of the engine's fan and inlet guide-vanes (IGV). The production aircraft incorporates radar blockers similar in principle to those used on the F/A-18E/F in front of the engine fan to hide it from all angles. The aircraft uses RAM to absorb radar emissions and reduce their reflection back to the source, and the canopy is treated with a coating to minimize the radar return of the cockpit and pilot.[87][88]

The Su-57's design emphasizes frontal stealth, with RCS-reducing features most apparent in the forward hemisphere; the shaping of the aft fuselage is much less optimized for radar stealth compared to the F-22.[82] The combined effect of airframe shape and RAM of the production aircraft is estimated to have reduced the aircraft's RCS to a value thirty times smaller than that of the Su-27.[89] Sukhoi's patent of the Su-57's stealth features cites an average RCS of the aircraft of approximately 0.1-1 square meters.[87] However, like other stealth fighters, the Su-57's low observability measures are chiefly effective against high frequency (between 3 and 30 GHz) radars, usually found on other aircraft. The effects of Rayleigh scattering and resonance mean that low-frequency radars, employed by weather radars and early-warning radars are more likely to detect the Su-57 due to its physical size. However, such radars are also large, susceptible to clutter, and are less precise.[90][91]

 

[Bleipriester]

The Su-57 is still under development but Russia does not believe in "stealth" anyway.

Have you ever typed anything in this forum that made sense or was correct? You seriously look at the blended edges and placement of engine intakes of an SU-57 and declare the Russian don't believe in stealth, it's almost like your purpose here is to look as foolish as possible with every post.

The Su-57 will be the first operational aircraft in Russian Air Force service to use stealth technology. Similar to other stealth fighters such as the F-22, the airframe incorporates planform edge alignment to reduce its radar cross-section (RCS); the leading and trailing edges of the wings and control surfaces and the serrated edges of skin panels are carefully aligned at several specific angles in order to reduce the number of directions the radar waves can be reflected.[86] Weapons are carried internally in weapons bays within the airframe, and antennas are recessed from the surface of the skin to preserve the aircraft's stealthy shape. The IRST housing is turned backwards when not in use, and its rear is treated with radar-absorbent material (RAM) to reduce its radar return. To mask the significant RCS contribution of the engine face, the partial serpentine inlet obscures most, but not all, of the engine's fan and inlet guide-vanes (IGV). The production aircraft incorporates radar blockers similar in principle to those used on the F/A-18E/F in front of the engine fan to hide it from all angles. The aircraft uses RAM to absorb radar emissions and reduce their reflection back to the source, and the canopy is treated with a coating to minimize the radar return of the cockpit and pilot.[87][88]

The Su-57's design emphasizes frontal stealth, with RCS-reducing features most apparent in the forward hemisphere; the shaping of the aft fuselage is much less optimized for radar stealth compared to the F-22.[82] The combined effect of airframe shape and RAM of the production aircraft is estimated to have reduced the aircraft's RCS to a value thirty times smaller than that of the Su-27.[89] Sukhoi's patent of the Su-57's stealth features cites an average RCS of the aircraft of approximately 0.1-1 square meters.[87] However, like other stealth fighters, the Su-57's low observability measures are chiefly effective against high frequency (between 3 and 30 GHz) radars, usually found on other aircraft. The effects of Rayleigh scattering and resonance mean that low-frequency radars, employed by weather radars and early-warning radars are more likely to detect the Su-57 due to its physical size. However, such radars are also large, susceptible to clutter, and are less precise.[90][91]

Your inevitable denial was expected, stealth troll.

Russia Brags That It Can Detect And Track New F-35 Stealth Jet

 

[DrainBamage]

Your inevitable denial was expected, stealth troll.

Russia Brags That It Can Detect And Track New F-35 Stealth Jet

You seem to have lost track here. To review:

1. You said the Russians don't believe in stealth
2. Information is provided that clearly demonstrates SU-57 is an attempt at a stealthy aircraft
3. You are suddenly interested in Russian claims about radars and F-35

Standard Bleipriester, when caught talking out of his ass he just shrugs it off and starts trying to talk about something else. Clearly the Russians believe in stealth, or they wouldn't be trying to make a stealth aircraft. Yet again you look foolish.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The Su-57 is still under development but Russia does not believe in "stealth" anyway.

Oh, they believe in it. They are just having trouble obtaining it on their current budget.

From the front, the SU-57 as about a .1 ratio. But from the sides, it has a .5. Making it much worse than a F-15SE. You see, the regular F-15 has a .25 from all angles. It's not hard to get it down to better from the front. You do get some stealth from the shape alone. But the SU-35 shape just doesn't give it enough to be that useful.

 

[Bleipriester]

Your inevitable denial was expected, stealth troll.

Russia Brags That It Can Detect And Track New F-35 Stealth Jet

You seem to have lost track here. To review:

1. You said the Russians don't believe in stealth
2. Information is provided that clearly demonstrates SU-57 is an attempt at a stealthy aircraft
3. You are suddenly interested in Russian claims about radars and F-35

Standard Bleipriester, when caught talking out of his ass he just shrugs it off and starts trying to talk about something else. Clearly the Russians believe in stealth, or they wouldn't be trying to make a stealth aircraft. Yet again you look foolish.

If the Russians were interested they could have made a plane with very low radar signature since decades. The problem with stealth planes is that their capabilities are limited while the benefit of the stealth ability is doubtful. Syrian radar can track and Syrian missiles can defeat F-35.

 

[Bleipriester]

The Su-57 is still under development but Russia does not believe in "stealth" anyway.

Oh, they believe in it. They are just having trouble obtaining it on their current budget.

From the front, the SU-57 as about a .1 ratio. But from the sides, it has a .5. Making it much worse than a F-15SE. You see, the regular F-15 has a .25 from all angles. It's not hard to get it down to better from the front. You do get some stealth from the shape alone. But the SU-35 shape just doesn't give it enough to be that useful.

Its Russian companies that make the plane.

 

[DrainBamage]

If the Russians were interested they could have made a plane with very low radar signature since decades. The problem with stealth planes is that their capabilities are limited while the benefit of the stealth ability is doubtful.

You're not making any sense, just piling up more fabricated nonsense to try to cover up your previous fabricated nonsense.

Clearly Russia and China understand the benefits of stealth aircraft, or they wouldn't be spending all this money and effort to try to build them. Limited capabilities? Tell F-22 how limited the planes capabilities are. F-35 is dominating in exercises both against ground targets and aircraft, it isn't limited.

Syrian radar can track and Syrian missiles can defeat F-35.

Yeah anything you read on the internet must be true, just like the fake Iranian plane you stupidly believed in.

 

[Litwin]

Once the darling of the "Russia builds great military hardware" crowd, the SU-57 (PAK-FA) has been plagued by performance and quality issues to the point that India might be bailing on the program.

Indian Air Force wants out of fighter program with Russia

Senior IAF leadership recently expressed apprehension to the Ministry of Defence, claiming the proposed FGFA program with Russia does not meet desired requirements like U.S. F-35 fighter type capabilities, disclosed a senior IAF official. That official added, that “IAF is not keen to continue with the program.”

The proposed FGFA program does not meet desired stealth and cross section features compared to a F-35 fighter, the official explained, thus major structural changes are needed that cannot be met in the existing Russian prototypes.

FGFA also does not have modular engine concept, making maintenance and serviceability of the fleet expensive and troublesome. A second service official said the modular engine concept is required for the fleet serviceability and availability of FGFA aircrafts at short notice, since it can be done by the user itself.


Along with the big failure of the Armata tank program and most Russian naval designs never getting farther than plastic models in trade shows, Russia falls farther and farther behind as first tier world military power.

Defects Found in Almost Every Russian Proton Rocket Engine
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26 jan. 2017 - Implications for NASA, which relies on Russia for crew transport, ... Russian rocket builder may have replaced special alloys with cheap metals ... The Proton rocket has been grounded since last summer, and the Soyuz has ...

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The Su-57 is still under development but Russia does not believe in "stealth" anyway.

Oh, they believe in it. They are just having trouble obtaining it on their current budget.

From the front, the SU-57 as about a .1 ratio. But from the sides, it has a .5. Making it much worse than a F-15SE. You see, the regular F-15 has a .25 from all angles. It's not hard to get it down to better from the front. You do get some stealth from the shape alone. But the SU-35 shape just doesn't give it enough to be that useful.

Its Russian companies that make the plane.

Wow, you brilliance is showing. The SU-57 was supposed to be built in both Russia and India. India was to call theirs the FGFA. But due to the slow Russian Technology required to actually make it competitive, the Indians are left having to procure other sources for fighters. They need then now, not in 10 years. They haven't went for the SU-35 either since it's not a mature weapons system. What they buy in place of is anyones guess right now. But it won't be the pipe dreams of the SU-57 or the fledgling SU-35.

 

[Bleipriester]

The Su-57 is still under development but Russia does not believe in "stealth" anyway.

Oh, they believe in it. They are just having trouble obtaining it on their current budget.

From the front, the SU-57 as about a .1 ratio. But from the sides, it has a .5. Making it much worse than a F-15SE. You see, the regular F-15 has a .25 from all angles. It's not hard to get it down to better from the front. You do get some stealth from the shape alone. But the SU-35 shape just doesn't give it enough to be that useful.

Its Russian companies that make the plane.

Wow, you brilliance is showing. The SU-57 was supposed to be built in both Russia and India. India was to call theirs the FGFA. But due to the slow Russian Technology required to actually make it competitive, the Indians are left having to procure other sources for fighters. They need then now, not in 10 years. They haven't went for the SU-35 either since it's not a mature weapons system. What they buy in place of is anyones guess right now. But it won't be the pipe dreams of the SU-57 or the fledgling SU-35.

Russia has hundreds of military projects in development, a stealth fighters has no priority. It is luxury warfare with no real advantage whatsoever.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The Su-57 is still under development but Russia does not believe in "stealth" anyway.

Oh, they believe in it. They are just having trouble obtaining it on their current budget.

From the front, the SU-57 as about a .1 ratio. But from the sides, it has a .5. Making it much worse than a F-15SE. You see, the regular F-15 has a .25 from all angles. It's not hard to get it down to better from the front. You do get some stealth from the shape alone. But the SU-35 shape just doesn't give it enough to be that useful.

Its Russian companies that make the plane.

Wow, you brilliance is showing. The SU-57 was supposed to be built in both Russia and India. India was to call theirs the FGFA. But due to the slow Russian Technology required to actually make it competitive, the Indians are left having to procure other sources for fighters. They need then now, not in 10 years. They haven't went for the SU-35 either since it's not a mature weapons system. What they buy in place of is anyones guess right now. But it won't be the pipe dreams of the SU-57 or the fledgling SU-35.

Russia has hundreds of military projects in development, a stealth fighters has no priority. It is luxury warfare with no real advantage whatsoever.

The fact remains that tje US is the first to do it and it isn't cheap. While some people complain that it cost too much with little benefits are just crying in their beer. We didn't do it because it was easy, we did it because it was hard to paraphrase.

 

[Bleipriester]

The Su-57 is still under development but Russia does not believe in "stealth" anyway.

Oh, they believe in it. They are just having trouble obtaining it on their current budget.

From the front, the SU-57 as about a .1 ratio. But from the sides, it has a .5. Making it much worse than a F-15SE. You see, the regular F-15 has a .25 from all angles. It's not hard to get it down to better from the front. You do get some stealth from the shape alone. But the SU-35 shape just doesn't give it enough to be that useful.

Its Russian companies that make the plane.

Wow, you brilliance is showing. The SU-57 was supposed to be built in both Russia and India. India was to call theirs the FGFA. But due to the slow Russian Technology required to actually make it competitive, the Indians are left having to procure other sources for fighters. They need then now, not in 10 years. They haven't went for the SU-35 either since it's not a mature weapons system. What they buy in place of is anyones guess right now. But it won't be the pipe dreams of the SU-57 or the fledgling SU-35.

Russia has hundreds of military projects in development, a stealth fighters has no priority. It is luxury warfare with no real advantage whatsoever.

The fact remains that tje US is the first to do it and it isn't cheap. While some people complain that it cost too much with little benefits are just crying in their beer. We didn't do it because it was easy, we did it because it was hard to paraphrase.

In fact the Americans studied the German stealth bomber that was successfully tested in 1944.

"Hitler's Stealth Fighter" Re-created

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Oh, they believe in it. They are just having trouble obtaining it on their current budget.

From the front, the SU-57 as about a .1 ratio. But from the sides, it has a .5. Making it much worse than a F-15SE. You see, the regular F-15 has a .25 from all angles. It's not hard to get it down to better from the front. You do get some stealth from the shape alone. But the SU-35 shape just doesn't give it enough to be that useful.

Its Russian companies that make the plane.

Wow, you brilliance is showing. The SU-57 was supposed to be built in both Russia and India. India was to call theirs the FGFA. But due to the slow Russian Technology required to actually make it competitive, the Indians are left having to procure other sources for fighters. They need then now, not in 10 years. They haven't went for the SU-35 either since it's not a mature weapons system. What they buy in place of is anyones guess right now. But it won't be the pipe dreams of the SU-57 or the fledgling SU-35.

Russia has hundreds of military projects in development, a stealth fighters has no priority. It is luxury warfare with no real advantage whatsoever.

The fact remains that tje US is the first to do it and it isn't cheap. While some people complain that it cost too much with little benefits are just crying in their beer. We didn't do it because it was easy, we did it because it was hard to paraphrase.

In fact the Americans studied the German stealth bomber that was successfully tested in 1944.

"Hitler's Stealth Fighter" Re-created

Ah, you have hit dead center of my expertise as a Military Aircraft History.

The 229 was never intended nor known as stealth of any kind. Yes it was made of wood but there was enough metal to have it appear on radar. Much like the Mossie. And that was the Radar of that time period. The Shape is all they got right and didn't know it. The covering did help it to absorb some of the HF radar but not enough. The Germans weren't even aware of that quality. The only thing the Horten really got was it was the first jet twin engine flying wing. This is strictly Luft46 crap that keeps coming up over and over. And any stealth quality it had was purely by accident.

You forget that Jack Northop had already fielded a flying wing n 1929. It was powered by two inline engines and led to the other projects until it finally led to the B-2. They got the shape dead on. If you look at his 1929 design you will see exactly the same shape on the B-2. Like the Horten, it was wooden construction and fabric covered making it probably the first powered flight "Stealth" aircraft 14 years before the Horten actually flew. Again, any stealth quality it had was purely be accident and not by design.

There are others including Soviet designs that also would qualify from the 20s.

You should notice that the shape doesn't make it "Stealthy". It helps. What makes it stealthy was what was under the skin. For instance, the very first operation Stealth Aircraft was probably the SR-71. To this date, the baffling under the skin is top secret. Yes, it could be seen on radar. But it was on top of you before you detected it. By then, there was absolutely nothing you could do about it. It was a very primitive "Stealth" air frame but it led to Lockheed being able to build the F-117 and the F--22 along with the B-2 from Northrop.

The secrets of the F-117 are still closely guarded. But due to having early computers, it shape was as it was. It deflected radar waves at irregular angles as well as absorbed them. It was also very unstable. If the computer was lost, it would tumble and tear itself apart. It could only fly in a straight line or in a gentle curve. Anything beyond that would make it tear itself apart in that tumble.

With the advent of more powerful computers, the B-2 came about. It no longer needed to be made from sharp facets. Believe it or not, the B-2 is more stealthy than the F-22 until the doors come open. At that point, it stands out like a beacon in the sky until the doors are closed. The designers didn't have to compromise on the design. It was never meant to maneuver. The F-22 and the F-35 does have compromises but due them being a fraction of the size, it evens out.

The facts remains. Jack Northrop is the father of the first successful flying wing. And for Stealth, that goes to the Skunk Works of Lockheed. Any and all other attempts were not on purpose.

 

[Bleipriester]

Its Russian companies that make the plane.

Wow, you brilliance is showing. The SU-57 was supposed to be built in both Russia and India. India was to call theirs the FGFA. But due to the slow Russian Technology required to actually make it competitive, the Indians are left having to procure other sources for fighters. They need then now, not in 10 years. They haven't went for the SU-35 either since it's not a mature weapons system. What they buy in place of is anyones guess right now. But it won't be the pipe dreams of the SU-57 or the fledgling SU-35.

Russia has hundreds of military projects in development, a stealth fighters has no priority. It is luxury warfare with no real advantage whatsoever.

The fact remains that tje US is the first to do it and it isn't cheap. While some people complain that it cost too much with little benefits are just crying in their beer. We didn't do it because it was easy, we did it because it was hard to paraphrase.

In fact the Americans studied the German stealth bomber that was successfully tested in 1944.

"Hitler's Stealth Fighter" Re-created

Ah, you have hit dead center of my expertise as a Military Aircraft History.

The 229 was never intended nor known as stealth of any kind. Yes it was made of wood but there was enough metal to have it appear on radar. Much like the Mossie. And that was the Radar of that time period. The Shape is all they got right and didn't know it. The covering did help it to absorb some of the HF radar but not enough. The Germans weren't even aware of that quality. The only thing the Horten really got was it was the first jet twin engine flying wing. This is strictly Luft46 crap that keeps coming up over and over. And any stealth quality it had was purely by accident.

You forget that Jack Northop had already fielded a flying wing n 1929. It was powered by two inline engines and led to the other projects until it finally led to the B-2. They got the shape dead on. If you look at his 1929 design you will see exactly the same shape on the B-2. Like the Horten, it was wooden construction and fabric covered making it probably the first powered flight "Stealth" aircraft 14 years before the Horten actually flew. Again, any stealth quality it had was purely be accident and not by design.

There are others including Soviet designs that also would qualify from the 20s.

You should notice that the shape doesn't make it "Stealthy". It helps. What makes it stealthy was what was under the skin. For instance, the very first operation Stealth Aircraft was probably the SR-71. To this date, the baffling under the skin is top secret. Yes, it could be seen on radar. But it was on top of you before you detected it. By then, there was absolutely nothing you could do about it. It was a very primitive "Stealth" air frame but it led to Lockheed being able to build the F-117 and the F--22 along with the B-2 from Northrop.

The secrets of the F-117 are still closely guarded. But due to having early computers, it shape was as it was. It deflected radar waves at irregular angles as well as absorbed them. It was also very unstable. If the computer was lost, it would tumble and tear itself apart. It could only fly in a straight line or in a gentle curve. Anything beyond that would make it tear itself apart in that tumble.

With the advent of more powerful computers, the B-2 came about. It no longer needed to be made from sharp facets. Believe it or not, the B-2 is more stealthy than the F-22 until the doors come open. At that point, it stands out like a beacon in the sky until the doors are closed. The designers didn't have to compromise on the design. It was never meant to maneuver. The F-22 and the F-35 does have compromises but due them being a fraction of the size, it evens out.

The facts remains. Jack Northrop is the father of the first successful flying wing. And for Stealth, that goes to the Skunk Works of Lockheed. Any and all other attempts were not on purpose.

You are apparently not an expert of military aircraft history but an "American Supremacy Avionist" or something whose "expertise" should be taken with a barrel of salt.

Your 1929 "Flying Wing" is not a flying wing and does not look like any modern stealth aircraft.

It is not only the shape that makes the Horten "stealthy" but also he materials used.

"After the war, Reimar Horten said he mixed charcoal dust in with the wood glue to absorb electromagnetic waves (radar), which he believed could shield the aircraft from detection by British early-warning ground-based radar that operated at 20 to 30 MHz (top end of the HF band), known as Chain Home. A jet-powered flying wing design such as the Horten Ho 229 has a smaller radar cross-section than conventional contemporary twin-engine aircraft because the wings blended into the fuselage and there are no large propeller disks or vertical and horizontal tail surfaces to provide a typical identifiable radar signature.

Engineers of the Northrop-Grumman Corporation had long been interested in the Ho 229, and several of them visited the Smithsonian Museum's facility in Silver Hill, Maryland in the early 1980s to study the V3 airframe, in the context of developing the Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit. A team of engineers from Northrop-Grumman ran electromagnetic tests on the V3's multilayer wooden center-section nose cones. The cones are 19 mm (0.75 in) thick and made from thin sheets of veneer. The team concluded that there was some form of conducting element in the glue, as the radar signal attenuated considerably as it passed through the cone. However, a later inspection by the museum found no trace of such material."
Horten Ho 229 - Wikipedia

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Wow, you brilliance is showing. The SU-57 was supposed to be built in both Russia and India. India was to call theirs the FGFA. But due to the slow Russian Technology required to actually make it competitive, the Indians are left having to procure other sources for fighters. They need then now, not in 10 years. They haven't went for the SU-35 either since it's not a mature weapons system. What they buy in place of is anyones guess right now. But it won't be the pipe dreams of the SU-57 or the fledgling SU-35.

Russia has hundreds of military projects in development, a stealth fighters has no priority. It is luxury warfare with no real advantage whatsoever.

The fact remains that tje US is the first to do it and it isn't cheap. While some people complain that it cost too much with little benefits are just crying in their beer. We didn't do it because it was easy, we did it because it was hard to paraphrase.

In fact the Americans studied the German stealth bomber that was successfully tested in 1944.

"Hitler's Stealth Fighter" Re-created

Ah, you have hit dead center of my expertise as a Military Aircraft History.

The 229 was never intended nor known as stealth of any kind. Yes it was made of wood but there was enough metal to have it appear on radar. Much like the Mossie. And that was the Radar of that time period. The Shape is all they got right and didn't know it. The covering did help it to absorb some of the HF radar but not enough. The Germans weren't even aware of that quality. The only thing the Horten really got was it was the first jet twin engine flying wing. This is strictly Luft46 crap that keeps coming up over and over. And any stealth quality it had was purely by accident.

You forget that Jack Northop had already fielded a flying wing n 1929. It was powered by two inline engines and led to the other projects until it finally led to the B-2. They got the shape dead on. If you look at his 1929 design you will see exactly the same shape on the B-2. Like the Horten, it was wooden construction and fabric covered making it probably the first powered flight "Stealth" aircraft 14 years before the Horten actually flew. Again, any stealth quality it had was purely be accident and not by design.

There are others including Soviet designs that also would qualify from the 20s.

You should notice that the shape doesn't make it "Stealthy". It helps. What makes it stealthy was what was under the skin. For instance, the very first operation Stealth Aircraft was probably the SR-71. To this date, the baffling under the skin is top secret. Yes, it could be seen on radar. But it was on top of you before you detected it. By then, there was absolutely nothing you could do about it. It was a very primitive "Stealth" air frame but it led to Lockheed being able to build the F-117 and the F--22 along with the B-2 from Northrop.

The secrets of the F-117 are still closely guarded. But due to having early computers, it shape was as it was. It deflected radar waves at irregular angles as well as absorbed them. It was also very unstable. If the computer was lost, it would tumble and tear itself apart. It could only fly in a straight line or in a gentle curve. Anything beyond that would make it tear itself apart in that tumble.

With the advent of more powerful computers, the B-2 came about. It no longer needed to be made from sharp facets. Believe it or not, the B-2 is more stealthy than the F-22 until the doors come open. At that point, it stands out like a beacon in the sky until the doors are closed. The designers didn't have to compromise on the design. It was never meant to maneuver. The F-22 and the F-35 does have compromises but due them being a fraction of the size, it evens out.

The facts remains. Jack Northrop is the father of the first successful flying wing. And for Stealth, that goes to the Skunk Works of Lockheed. Any and all other attempts were not on purpose.

You are apparently not an expert of military aircraft history but an "American Supremacy Avionist" or something whose "expertise" should be taken with a barrel of salt.

Your 1929 "Flying Wing" is not a flying wing and does not look like any modern stealth aircraft.

It is not only the shape that makes the Horten "stealthy" but also he materials used.

"After the war, Reimar Horten said he mixed charcoal dust in with the wood glue to absorb electromagnetic waves (radar), which he believed could shield the aircraft from detection by British early-warning ground-based radar that operated at 20 to 30 MHz (top end of the HF band), known as Chain Home. A jet-powered flying wing design such as the Horten Ho 229 has a smaller radar cross-section than conventional contemporary twin-engine aircraft because the wings blended into the fuselage and there are no large propeller disks or vertical and horizontal tail surfaces to provide a typical identifiable radar signature.

Engineers of the Northrop-Grumman Corporation had long been interested in the Ho 229, and several of them visited the Smithsonian Museum's facility in Silver Hill, Maryland in the early 1980s to study the V3 airframe, in the context of developing the Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit. A team of engineers from Northrop-Grumman ran electromagnetic tests on the V3's multilayer wooden center-section nose cones. The cones are 19 mm (0.75 in) thick and made from thin sheets of veneer. The team concluded that there was some form of conducting element in the glue, as the radar signal attenuated considerably as it passed through the cone. However, a later inspection by the museum found no trace of such material."
Horten Ho 229 - Wikipedia

Sounds good when you say it to yourself. But the fact remains, the first Stealth was not done by Northrop, it was done by Lockheed with NO inputs from the Hortens. And it wasn't a flying wing either. Enter the F-117.

The 229 was never produced as something that could be produced for service, period. It flew in Feb 1945 and owes nothing to the B-2s life. Northrops N-9M flew in 1942 which is the first real chain to bringing the B-2 through the line of XB-35 and YB-49. The 229 was first designed in 1943 making it a parrellel line that was already done by many countries before that as gliders. What you think as being known at the time of design and construction of the 229 was learned AFTER Germany surrendered and the US examined it in depth. Your mysterious coating was not found. Plus, it wasn't made from just wood. It had a steel frame making it less stealthy than the Mossie. Only because of the design, the 229 V3 would have been about 80% reflective as the ME109. Using your own Cite, you claims were completely debunked. And the 229 was NOT a new design. It was beaten to the punch by the US, French and Russian designs before it's design was started. Your whole argument is strictly Luft46. You can make the same claims that they do and it doesn't make it true.