India considering bailing on SU-57

[DrainBamage]

Once the darling of the "Russia builds great military hardware" crowd, the SU-57 (PAK-FA) has been plagued by performance and quality issues to the point that India might be bailing on the program.

Indian Air Force wants out of fighter program with Russia

Senior IAF leadership recently expressed apprehension to the Ministry of Defence, claiming the proposed FGFA program with Russia does not meet desired requirements like U.S. F-35 fighter type capabilities, disclosed a senior IAF official. That official added, that “IAF is not keen to continue with the program.”

The proposed FGFA program does not meet desired stealth and cross section features compared to a F-35 fighter, the official explained, thus major structural changes are needed that cannot be met in the existing Russian prototypes.

FGFA also does not have modular engine concept, making maintenance and serviceability of the fleet expensive and troublesome. A second service official said the modular engine concept is required for the fleet serviceability and availability of FGFA aircrafts at short notice, since it can be done by the user itself.


Along with the big failure of the Armata tank program and most Russian naval designs never getting farther than plastic models in trade shows, Russia falls farther and farther behind as first tier world military power.

 

[Stratford57]

most Russian naval designs never getting farther than plastic models in trade shows, Russia falls farther and farther behind as first tier world military power.

OP is apparently mistaken about Russia's military power.

A few weeks ago:
Russia and Belarus Union State armed forces activities have joint strategic exercises "Zapad-2017". The two nations are working on coordination and interoperability of its troops in joint operations.
Putin arrives at the Zapad 2017 war games which triggered wave of hysteria in the West

CBS News correspondent Elizabeth Palmer is near St. Petersburg, Russia, where Russian troops are taking part in the massive exercise which she says is as much a work-out for the Russian armed forces as it is a spectacle.
The pictures of the action released by the Russian military are intended for broadcast around the world. The message, especially to the U.S. and its NATO allies, is that taking on Russia would be a mistake.
Russia Zapad 2017 military exercise in Belorussia could be "preparation for a big war" NATO says - CBS News

Washington Post:
For Russia, the exercises are a chance to exhibit the new strength of its military, which has undergone a decade-long modernization
What would a Russia-NATO war look like? Russia’s wargaming it right now.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The SU-57 is still using 1980s avionics, the engine from the SU-35. The frontal section is rated at slightly less than .1 while the rear and the sides are rated at .5. It's actually worse than a F-15E/C/D which is rated at .25 from all angles. The Engine that they keep promising is just a promise right now. The new AESIS radar is a pipe dream right now. The SU-35 is a much better Fighter overall than the SU-57. The cost keeps going up on both but the SU-57 is now out of control. Looks to me like India has figured out that their investment just went down the tubes.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Op is apparently mistaken about Russia's military power.

A few weeks ago:
Russia and Belarus Union State armed forces activities have joint strategic exercises "Zapad-2017". The two nations are working on coordination and interoperability of its troops in joint operations.
Putin arrives at the Zapad 2017 war games which triggered wave of hysteria in the West

CBS News correspondent Elizabeth Palmer is near St. Petersburg, Russia, where Russian troops are taking part in the massive exercise which she says is as much a work-out for the Russian armed forces as it is a spectacle.
The pictures of the action released by the Russian military are intended for broadcast around the world. The message, especially to the U.S. and its NATO allies, is that taking on Russia would be a mistake.
Russia Zapad 2017 military exercise in Belorussia could be "preparation for a big war" NATO says - CBS News

Washington Post:
For Russia, the exercises are a chance to exhibit the new strength of its military, which has undergone a decade-long modernization
What would a Russia-NATO war look like? Russia’s wargaming it right now.

There you go again. Drain didn't say a single thing about what you say he did. He was only commenting on the Indian SU-57. And he is correct all the way around. Now, please pay attention and put away the Putin Playbook for idiots.

 

[xyz]

It would obviously make more sense to invest in something that is already in production, despite the fact that it would be older, simply because if it's not finished you don't know what you get.

 

[onaquest]

It would obviously make more sense to invest in something that is already in production, despite the fact that it would be older, simply because if it's not finished you don't know what you get.

there is no doubt that the F-35 is more technologically advanced than the SU-57 but the F-35 is heavily controlled and networked into America's favour. buying into the F-35 program, for a country like India wouldn't make sense due to the heavy net-centric nature of the F-35 technology. example: the U.S. air force will know the location of any Indian or foreign F-35 at any given time, its mission parameters, what its radars see, weapons and fuel status... and more importantly limit source code access. in effect, limiting India's ability to conduct sovereign use and upgrade without U.S. consent. something that the Russians would be more flexible about.

India would have more operational control and upgrade options over a Russian product than the F-35. I suspect that the Indians are trying to drive the SU-57 price down and get more independent access rather than abandon the SU-57 program and the billions it has invested up until now.

 

[onaquest]

The SU-57 is still using 1980s avionics, the engine from the SU-35. The frontal section is rated at slightly less than .1 while the rear and the sides are rated at .5. It's actually worse than a F-15E/C/D which is rated at .25 from all angles. The Engine that they keep promising is just a promise right now. The new AESIS radar is a pipe dream right now. The SU-35 is a much better Fighter overall than the SU-57. The cost keeps going up on both but the SU-57 is now out of control. Looks to me like India has figured out that their investment just went down the tubes.

to be fair to the SU-57 the F-35 has also be dogged with controversy. Its a trillion dollar project that offers a new warfare doctrine that might not necessarily pay dividends. it's revolutionary technology solely relies on inter-connected electronics and radar evading design. something that could be easily defeated if Russian and Chinese radar and weapon advances develop enough to counter this.

the F-35 is dogged with limited concealed weapons bay space to stay in stealth mode to act alone for long. to be dominate on the battlefield the F-35 needs to fly in large formations and swarm any adversaries into submission by electronically confusing the enemy. whilst the SU-57 and the J-20 have more dogfighting abilities and greater range... twice as much as the F-35.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The SU-57 is still using 1980s avionics, the engine from the SU-35. The frontal section is rated at slightly less than .1 while the rear and the sides are rated at .5. It's actually worse than a F-15E/C/D which is rated at .25 from all angles. The Engine that they keep promising is just a promise right now. The new AESIS radar is a pipe dream right now. The SU-35 is a much better Fighter overall than the SU-57. The cost keeps going up on both but the SU-57 is now out of control. Looks to me like India has figured out that their investment just went down the tubes.

to be fair to the SU-57 the F-35 has also be dogged with controversy. Its a trillion dollar project that offers a new warfare doctrine that might not necessarily pay dividends. it's revolutionary technology solely relies on inter-connected electronics and radar evading design. something that could be easily defeated if Russian and Chinese radar and weapon advances develop enough to counter this.

the F-35 is dogged with limited concealed weapons bay space to stay in stealth mode to act alone for long. to be dominate on the battlefield the F-35 needs to fly in large formations and swarm any adversaries into submission by electronically confusing the enemy. whilst the SU-57 and the J-20 have more dogfighting abilities and greater range... twice as much as the F-35.

There is a HUGE difference. The F-35A is already in production. Right now, the bulk will come out with the 3I mod with the later ones to be produced with the 3F. It's already in mass production and the price keeps coming down. The last batch cost 95 mil per copy flyaway cost. The next batch will be closer to 90 while most will be out for 85 mil and the bulk will also have the 3F mod already installed. It' s proven to be very dependable. Almost as dependable as the F-16 and more reliable than the F-22, F-15 and F-18. And it's in production large scale.

The SU-57 is not in production since it doesn't have the engines and avionics it will need. All the hoopla about it is just wishful thinking right now. That may change later but for now, there is no way it can go into production except in very small numbers. By the time it will be ready, the F-35A will have even more done for it and be past the SU-57. By that time, the F-35A will be a mature weapons system. I predict that the SU-57 won't get the engines it requires or the Avionics it requires until 2025. By then, a new US fighter will be on the very near horizon.

As for the F-20, it has some of the same problems the SU-57 has. A lot of the hype is just that. Maybe in 6 or 7 years it won't be hype anymore. But by then, the F-22 and F-35 will have moved on with it's own mods clearly ahead of the Chinese of Russians. A superior idea only becomes worth something when it's deployed and in service.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

It would obviously make more sense to invest in something that is already in production, despite the fact that it would be older, simply because if it's not finished you don't know what you get.

there is no doubt that the F-35 is more technologically advanced than the SU-57 but the F-35 is heavily controlled and networked into America's favour. buying into the F-35 program, for a country like India wouldn't make sense due to the heavy net-centric nature of the F-35 technology. example: the U.S. air force will know the location of any Indian or foreign F-35 at any given time, its mission parameters, what its radars see, weapons and fuel status... and more importantly limit source code access. in effect, limiting India's ability to conduct sovereign use and upgrade without U.S. consent. something that the Russians would be more flexible about.

India would have more operational control and upgrade options over a Russian product than the F-35. I suspect that the Indians are trying to drive the SU-57 price down and get more independent access rather than abandon the SU-57 program and the billions it has invested up until now.

Nope. There is no way to drive the cost down. Until the engines and avionics it has promised is delivered, it's a turkey. Better to put the money against new fighters like the F-35A or SU-35. But the last thing anyone wants to invest in is anything the Chinese will offer for export. The Chinese have trouble in even getting the things delivered in one piece.

As for the US to be able to track all the F-35s in the world ,so what. It's not like the US will ever square off with the Indians. India as one of the more sane governments in the world. Don't look for the US to offer Pakistan any Lightning IIs anytime soon.

 

[K9Buck]

The message, especially to the U.S. and its NATO allies, is that taking on Russia would be a mistake.

I wouldn't want to fight Russia in or near to Russia but, outside of that arena, we would mop the floor with the Russians...and they know it. They want NO PART of the USA.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The message, especially to the U.S. and its NATO allies, is that taking on Russia would be a mistake.

I wouldn't want to fight Russia in or near to Russia but, outside of that arena, we would mop the floor with the Russians...and they know it. They want NO PART of the USA.

What you are seeing in here is the Putin Propaganda Machine at work. It's like the puffer fish.

 

[DrainBamage]

OP is apparently mistaken about Russia's military power.

No, it is exactly what it is. Russia doesn't have the money to do anything, they have this new stealth fighter that India wants no part of after seeing it perform. They have one carrier that sails about with a deep-sea tugboat in case it stalls, and it couldn't even manage a mission to Syria without losing two aircraft and having the rest transferred to land bases.

Their PAK-FA is fail, their navy is fail, and their new tank that is being cancelled in vast numbers is fail. Russia is a joke militarily, lots of bright minds and no resources to take advantage of it.

 

[DrainBamage]

whilst the SU-57 and the J-20 have more dogfighting abilities and greater range... twice as much as the F-35.

Dogfighting? Hello last century, nice to meet you.

The reason F-35s are racking up 20-1 kill ratios in exercises is that they don't need to dogfight, their opponents just die without knowing what hit 'em.

 

[K9Buck]

The reason F-35s are racking up 20-1 kill ratios in exercises is that they don't need to dogfight, their opponents just die without knowing what hit 'em.

I understand that was against simulated adversaries. I wonder how they would do against good F-15 pilots. I presume they would do very well, I just wonder if it would 20-1.

“Red Flag confirmed F-35 dominance with a 20:1 kill ratio” U.S. Air Force says

 

[onaquest]

The SU-57 is still using 1980s avionics, the engine from the SU-35. The frontal section is rated at slightly less than .1 while the rear and the sides are rated at .5. It's actually worse than a F-15E/C/D which is rated at .25 from all angles. The Engine that they keep promising is just a promise right now. The new AESIS radar is a pipe dream right now. The SU-35 is a much better Fighter overall than the SU-57. The cost keeps going up on both but the SU-57 is now out of control. Looks to me like India has figured out that their investment just went down the tubes.

to be fair to the SU-57 the F-35 has also be dogged with controversy. Its a trillion dollar project that offers a new warfare doctrine that might not necessarily pay dividends. it's revolutionary technology solely relies on inter-connected electronics and radar evading design. something that could be easily defeated if Russian and Chinese radar and weapon advances develop enough to counter this.

the F-35 is dogged with limited concealed weapons bay space to stay in stealth mode to act alone for long. to be dominate on the battlefield the F-35 needs to fly in large formations and swarm any adversaries into submission by electronically confusing the enemy. whilst the SU-57 and the J-20 have more dogfighting abilities and greater range... twice as much as the F-35.

There is a HUGE difference. The F-35A is already in production. Right now, the bulk will come out with the 3I mod with the later ones to be produced with the 3F. It's already in mass production and the price keeps coming down. The last batch cost 95 mil per copy flyaway cost. The next batch will be closer to 90 while most will be out for 85 mil and the bulk will also have the 3F mod already installed. It' s proven to be very dependable. Almost as dependable as the F-16 and more reliable than the F-22, F-15 and F-18. And it's in production large scale.

The SU-57 is not in production since it doesn't have the engines and avionics it will need. All the hoopla about it is just wishful thinking right now. That may change later but for now, there is no way it can go into production except in very small numbers. By the time it will be ready, the F-35A will have even more done for it and be past the SU-57. By that time, the F-35A will be a mature weapons system. I predict that the SU-57 won't get the engines it requires or the Avionics it requires until 2025. By then, a new US fighter will be on the very near horizon.

As for the F-20, it has some of the same problems the SU-57 has. A lot of the hype is just that. Maybe in 6 or 7 years it won't be hype anymore. But by then, the F-22 and F-35 will have moved on with it's own mods clearly ahead of the Chinese of Russians. A superior idea only becomes worth something when it's deployed and in service.

i agree that the F-35 is without industrial and technological equal at the moment and prolly will stay that way. for what it does and the common platform that it provides for multiple missions makes it an exceptional fighter. but not a traditional fighter.

 

[onaquest]

whilst the SU-57 and the J-20 have more dogfighting abilities and greater range... twice as much as the F-35.

Dogfighting? Hello last century, nice to meet you.

The reason F-35s are racking up 20-1 kill ratios in exercises is that they don't need to dogfight, their opponents just die without knowing what hit 'em.

well you're assuming that the future opponents of the F-35 will not move ahead with radar and electronic warfare counter measures. with 8 million lines of code keeping the F-35 airborne and fighting the robotic F-35 is heavily dependent on this new war fighting drone like doctrine. maybe too dependent. don't get me wrong, the F-35 is an exceptional leap forward in fighter jets that will greatly enhance U.S. dominance. but is it the best choice for regional powers? not sure.

 

[onaquest]

It would obviously make more sense to invest in something that is already in production, despite the fact that it would be older, simply because if it's not finished you don't know what you get.

there is no doubt that the F-35 is more technologically advanced than the SU-57 but the F-35 is heavily controlled and networked into America's favour. buying into the F-35 program, for a country like India wouldn't make sense due to the heavy net-centric nature of the F-35 technology. example: the U.S. air force will know the location of any Indian or foreign F-35 at any given time, its mission parameters, what its radars see, weapons and fuel status... and more importantly limit source code access. in effect, limiting India's ability to conduct sovereign use and upgrade without U.S. consent. something that the Russians would be more flexible about.

India would have more operational control and upgrade options over a Russian product than the F-35. I suspect that the Indians are trying to drive the SU-57 price down and get more independent access rather than abandon the SU-57 program and the billions it has invested up until now.

Nope. There is no way to drive the cost down. Until the engines and avionics it has promised is delivered, it's a turkey. Better to put the money against new fighters like the F-35A or SU-35. But the last thing anyone wants to invest in is anything the Chinese will offer for export. The Chinese have trouble in even getting the things delivered in one piece.

As for the US to be able to track all the F-35s in the world ,so what. It's not like the US will ever square off with the Indians. India as one of the more sane governments in the world. Don't look for the US to offer Pakistan any Lightning IIs anytime soon.

so the price of the F-35 can come down, according to you but the SU-57 can't? that doesn't sound right. operational controlled military hardware, especially for a regional power like India is paramount. spare parts, upgrades and confidentiality are all national issues that transcend the concept of "friends and allies." it wasn't that long ago that Turkey was also firmly in the Western camp. look at how that relationship has quickly soured. now there's rumblings in the U.S. that the F-35 secrets are not entirely safe with their NATO ally. Russian radars that Turkey is buying will be able to monitor and record F-35 electronic and flight signatures and the Russians will know all and who knows what else the Turks will give away to please their new Russian best mates. in fact, will Turkey even want the F-35 that can be grounded at a flick of a switch?

 

[DrainBamage]

I understand that was against simulated adversaries. I wonder how they would do against good F-15 pilots. I presume they would do very well, I just wonder if it would 20-1.

Nope. They were real F-15Es and F-16s flown by real pilots using their real sensors to try to detect and lock on to their opponents, just like any other Red Flag exercise. The only thing simulated is the missiles firing.

If the 5th gen fighters are consistently finding and getting into good kill positions against Red Team without them knowing they were being targeted it's the same as it would be in a non-exercise.

 

[DrainBamage]

well you're assuming that the future opponents of the F-35 will not move ahead with radar and electronic warfare counter measures.

No I'm not, I'd assume they'd move ahead and so would the technology in the F-35 and weapons it carries. It isn't a new doctrine, it's a fact that most kills in modern air combat goes to the plane that gets first look and first shot, BVR wins.

 

[DrainBamage]

so the price of the F-35 can come down, according to you but the SU-57 can't?

India is pulling back, and Russia's initial order is for 12 of them.

F-35 price is coming down mainly because of scale, they'll be building thousands of them. SU-57 price might come down but it sure isn't going to enjoy the economy of scale F-35 is to do so, if anything they have the opposite problem.