Homosexuality and the Torah -and- the Christian NT

[Statistikhengst]

On this thread:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/347434-various-thoughts-on-the-issues-of-homosexuality.html


There has been an unbelievably active conversation about Homosexuality, and invariably, some people have quoted scripture in order to make their point.

I want to clarify some things.

The Holy Book(s) of Judiasm, called the "Tanakh" is comprised of:

the Pentateuch (the five books attributed to Moshe), called the "Torah"

the Prophets, known as "Neviim"

the histories, or "writings", known as "Ketuvim"

Torah + Neviim + Ketuvim = T + N + K = TANAKH.

So, the word that describes the "jewish Bible", if you will, is an acronym.

The Tanach is known in Christianity as the Old Testament and was written in both Aramaic and old Hebrew. The Tanakh has been passed down over the last 3,300+ years through scribes who have spent their entire lives copying the holy texts, letter for letter, with perfect accuracy. In fact, the rules for scribes and Torah calligraphy are long and extensive. A copied Torah scroll with so much as even one error must be burned and cannot be kept.


So far, so good.

The Tanakh, esp. the Pentateuch, is also a compendium of Jewish Law (Halakha), and in Judaism, there are 613 (SIX HUNDRED AND THIRTEEN) laws, also known as commandments. The Hebrew for commandment is "Mitzvah" (plural: "Mitzvoteem").

Those commandments are supposed to cover every conceivable aspect of Jewish Life, from the agrarian to the cosmopolitan. There are especially many laws governing the family unit.

Of those 613 Mitzvoteem, there are exactly two which deal specifically with homosexual acts. Notice that I did not write the word "Homosexuality", for two reasons:

1.) The term did not exist then, and even if it did
2.) that would be a state of being, but the verses deal with acts and deeds, not a state of being.

Both of those verses are within the third book of the Pentateuch, called "Va'yikra" ("HE called", known in English as "Leviticus", referring to the Levi's, who, along with the Kohen (Cohens) were and are entrusted to be the High Priests (V'hakohaneem) of the Temple).

The first verse is from Lev 18:22:

Leviticus 18 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre

Here is a screenshot of that verse:

Here is a transliteration of the Hebrew you see:

ve’et za’khar lo tish’kav, mish’ke’vey i’shah to’ey’vah hi

Word for word:

ve'et = an
za'khar = male
lo = no, not, do not
tish'kav = sleep (verb)
mish'ke'vey = delight (a word used to describe sex)
i'shah = woman
to'ey'vah = an abomination
hi = is

Of course, Hebrew/Aramaic sentence construction is different than in English. But the point is there.


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Here is the second verse, Lev. 20:12

Leviticus 20 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre


Here is a screenshot of that verse, in both English and Hebrew:

ve’ish a’sher yish’kav et za’khar
mish’ke’vey i’shah to’ey’vah a’su she’ney’hem mot yu’ma’tu de’mey’hem bam

Word for word:

ve'ish = And man
asher = which (could also be who)
yish'kav = sleeps
et = the
za'khar = male
mish'ke'vey = delight
I'sha = woman
to'ey'vah = An abomination
a'su = did (past tense of to do)
she'ney'hem = both
mot = die (from to die)
yu'ma'tu = often
de'mey'hem =four who are (yes, "de" literally means "4")
bam = (shall) do

Same deal here: different sentence construction, but the meaning can be seen.

Some like to translate the word for "delight" to mean "bed". This is not uncommon.

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Of the two verses, Lev. 20:13 is longer and carries the death penalty explicitly with it.

Not all Mitzvoteem carry the word for "Abomination" (to'evah) and this is one of the rare cases in the Tanakh where an article (to = an) is used instead of just being inferred. For the most severe of all sins, "to'evah" (an abomination) is used twice in a row. Here, this is not the case.

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Hebrew scholars over the years also developed a catalog of sorts as to how death penalty punishment for homosexual acts should be carried out, you can read them:

Issurei Biah - Chapter One - Texts & Writings

Issurei Biah - Chapter Twenty One - Texts & Writings

(if you want to see how anal retentive those scholars were back then, take a look at Halacha 19)

Also as applies to women:

Issurei Biah - Chapter Twenty One - Texts & Writings

(Halacha 8)


It should be noted that only a very small percentage of Jews actually adhere to the "Issure Biah" - lectures from another time in history, to say the least.


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So, of 613 Mitzvoteem, exactly 2 have to do with homosexual acts. That is 0.33% of all commandments. Notice that the commandments against homosexual acts is also placed next to things like adultery or sleeping with a woman while she is on her period.


What is NOT indicated anywhere in the Tanakh are homosexual thoughts or feelings. They are not prohibited:

Homosexuality and Jewish Law - My Jewish Learning

An important point to make from the outset is that Jewish law does not teach that it is forbidden to be a homosexual. On the contrary, Jewish law is concerned not with the source of a person’s erotic urges nor with inner feelings, but with acts. The Torah forbids the homosexual act, known as mishkav zakhar, but has nothing to say about homosexuality as a state of being or a personal inclination.

In other words, traditionally, a person with a homosexual inclination can be an entirely observant Jew as long as he or she does not act out that inclination.

Also:

A more likely explanation for the ban against homosexual behavior is given in the Talmud by Bar Kapparah, who makes a play on the word to’evah (“abomination&#8221, claiming that it means to’eh atah ba (“you go astray because of it&#8221. Both Tosefot and the Asheri (medieval commentators) comment on this passage that a man will leave his wife and family to pursue a relationship with another man. In other words, homosexuality undermines and threatens the Jewish ideal of family life, of marriage and children, articulated in the Torah. Heterosexuality is the communal norm for Jews; homosexuality, a perversion of that norm.

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Now, I am not indicating my personal feelings on this. I am simply reporting EXACTLY what is found within the Tanakh as pertains to homosexual acts, nothing less and nothing more. I am neither advocating nor condemning Homosexuals or Homosexuality, or for that part, even Homosexual acts. All I'm doing is to get the information out there.

How does this tie in to Christianity?​

Well, I am hoping that our Christian members will now pipe up and give us some knowledge, but one thing I know for sure:

Yeshuah (Jesus), according to the Christian New Testament (which I have read in full six times so far in my life), was never even once quoted as having said anything at all about a homosexual act, homosexuals or homosexuality.

That can lead one to one of three possible conclusions:

1.) He was unaware of this issue (doubtful)
2.) He didn't know what to say about it (very, very doubtful)
3.) It was not important enough for him to speak about it (the most likely of the three).

You can read through all of the NT, you will not find one quote where Jeshuah specifically talks about this.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

The largest complaint I have about SOME Christians is with those who claim to know their theology in and out and proclaim that the "blood of Christ" renders the 613 Mitzvoteem null and void, and yet, when it comes to gays, all of a sudden they are very interested in two verses from Leviticus.

I find that hypocritical and lacking in a solid basis. And that could be a good starting point for this thread.


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Sources, for any in doubt, in case you want to do this stuff on your own:

Complete hebrew transliteration of the Tanakh:

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/docs/17_xlit.pdf

Hebrew/English - English/Hebrew translator:

Free Online Hebrew Dictionary. Type in Hebrew/English. Translate Hebrew or Phonetic Hebrew.

I did most of the word for word in my head, and double checked 4 words, just to be safe.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

One small correction. Of the 613 commandments, only 1 is about homosexual acts. It's mentioned twice, but it's just the 1 commandment.

Judaism doesn't concern itself with thoughts. Hard to verify espeically in a legal sense. Instead we concern ourselves with what people do, not what they may think. So homosexual acts are forbidden, but not the orientation or desire. Might desire to go on a killing spree, but as long as you don't you're not guilty of murder any more than someone who fantasizes about gay sex is guilty of gay acts.

Interestingly, this condemnation doesn't apply to lesbianism. It's why (I believe) many countries which may outlaw male homosexual sex acts don't also then outlaw female ones.

So yes, Torah calls for death for male homosexual acts. But before you can execute anyone for any death-penalty sin Torah also establishes a judicial procedure to follow. And in the case of capital crimes, you need 3 witnesses to testify. So unless gay men are having sex in view of witnesses they're safe from any religious punishment.

And finally, if G-d doesn't even exist, then neither do any of the commandments. Faith is well and good, but if you can't even admit the possibility it's all made-up then you're not doing your sdie any good because you just make it look that much more unreasonable and out-of-touch with reality.

 

[Statistikhengst]

One small correction. Of the 613 commandments, only 1 is about homosexual acts. It's mentioned twice, but it's just the 1 commandment.

Judaism doesn't concern itself with thoughts. Hard to verify espeically in a legal sense. Instead we concern ourselves with what people do, not what they may think. So homosexual acts are forbidden, but not the orientation or desire. Might desire to go on a killing spree, but as long as you don't you're not guilty of murder any more than someone who fantasizes about gay sex is guilty of gay acts.

Interestingly, this condemnation doesn't apply to lesbianism. It's why (I believe) many countries which may outlaw male homosexual sex acts don't also then outlaw female ones.

So yes, Torah calls for death for male homosexual acts. But before you can execute anyone for any death-penalty sin Torah also establishes a judicial procedure to follow. And in the case of capital crimes, you need 3 witnesses to testify. So unless gay men are having sex in view of witnesses they're safe from any religious punishment.

And finally, if G-d doesn't even exist, then neither do any of the commandments. Faith is well and good, but if you can't even admit the possibility it's all made-up then you're not doing your sdie any good because you just make it look that much more unreasonable and out-of-touch with reality.

I will research that. My Rabbi told me way back in 1987 that it was actually two separate Mitzvoteem. But if I was in error, I will of course correct it.


You wrote some very cogent thoughts. I was hoping you would stop by. Good for you.

Thanks for contributing!

 

[Chuckt]

Statistikhengst,

This isn't necessarily how I would approach it.

Your defense is based on assumptions and half interpretations from what you hear from people. You have to remember that this is a post Christian nation which doesn't teach the Bible anymore so you are only getting part truth from people when you hear it.

Your defense ignores revelation from God.

Chuck

 

[Delta4Embassy]

One small correction. Of the 613 commandments, only 1 is about homosexual acts. It's mentioned twice, but it's just the 1 commandment.

Judaism doesn't concern itself with thoughts. Hard to verify espeically in a legal sense. Instead we concern ourselves with what people do, not what they may think. So homosexual acts are forbidden, but not the orientation or desire. Might desire to go on a killing spree, but as long as you don't you're not guilty of murder any more than someone who fantasizes about gay sex is guilty of gay acts.

Interestingly, this condemnation doesn't apply to lesbianism. It's why (I believe) many countries which may outlaw male homosexual sex acts don't also then outlaw female ones.

So yes, Torah calls for death for male homosexual acts. But before you can execute anyone for any death-penalty sin Torah also establishes a judicial procedure to follow. And in the case of capital crimes, you need 3 witnesses to testify. So unless gay men are having sex in view of witnesses they're safe from any religious punishment.

And finally, if G-d doesn't even exist, then neither do any of the commandments. Faith is well and good, but if you can't even admit the possibility it's all made-up then you're not doing your sdie any good because you just make it look that much more unreasonable and out-of-touch with reality.

I will research that. My Rabbi told me way back in 1987 that it was actually two separate Mitzvoteem. But if I was in error, I will of course correct it.


You wrote some very cogent thoughts. I was hoping you would stop by. Good for you.

Thanks for contributing!

Thinking of jewfaq.org/613.htm 's list og them, 18:22's mentioned once only. The following verse isn't. That said, the number of commandments itself is a mtter of debate. Hassidic University's site says 620, so maybe they count the other one as a second commandment?

 

[Bloodrock44]

As a believer, I take scripture literally. One translation says a man shall not lie with a man as he would a woman. It is an abomination. Another says a man shall not lie with a man as he would a woman. God hates that. I don't give the subject any more weight as I do the sin of adultery. Personally, I don't give a rats ass what 2 men or 2 women do in the privacy of their own bedrooms. My problem is when they throw it in my face and say you will agree with us or we'll label you as a hater and make your life miserable. And don't tell me that is not happening.

 

[Chuckt]

1.) The term did not exist then, and even if it did
2.) that would be a state of being, but the verses deal with acts and deeds, not a state of being.

It ignores arguments that God made which were pre-law.
The law was mediated by angels and is inferior because it didn't come from God Himself.

Romans 2:15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them (RSV)

 

[Delta4Embassy]

As a believer, I take scripture literally. One translation says a man shall not lie with a man as he would a woman. It is an abomination. Another says a man shall not lie with a man as he would a woman. God hates that. I don't give the subject any more weight as I do the sin of adultery. Personally, I don't give a rats ass what 2 men or 2 women do in the privacy of their own bedrooms. My problem is when they throw it in my face and say you will agree with us or we'll label you as a hater and make your life miserable. And don't tell me that is not happening.

Important to understand that not everything in the Bible is meant o be interpreted literally. It uses metaphor and symbolism as well as literal devices. If you take everything at face value you're making mistakes in numerous parts as with the Song of Solomon to say nothing of Genesis and "dust of the earth." Dust are dust mites, we are not made of little insects.

 

[Statistikhengst]

Statistikhengst,

This isn't necessarily how I would approach it.

Your defense is based on assumptions and half interpretations from what you hear from people. You have to remember that this is a post Christian nation which doesn't teach the Bible anymore so you are only getting part truth from people when you hear it.

Your defense ignores revelation from God.

Chuck

Well, first the OT/OP is not a defense of anything. Did you actually read it?

Second, I am sure that in some universe somewhere, what you wrote made sense.



Care to try again?

 

[Statistikhengst]

One small correction. Of the 613 commandments, only 1 is about homosexual acts. It's mentioned twice, but it's just the 1 commandment.

Judaism doesn't concern itself with thoughts. Hard to verify espeically in a legal sense. Instead we concern ourselves with what people do, not what they may think. So homosexual acts are forbidden, but not the orientation or desire. Might desire to go on a killing spree, but as long as you don't you're not guilty of murder any more than someone who fantasizes about gay sex is guilty of gay acts.

Interestingly, this condemnation doesn't apply to lesbianism. It's why (I believe) many countries which may outlaw male homosexual sex acts don't also then outlaw female ones.

So yes, Torah calls for death for male homosexual acts. But before you can execute anyone for any death-penalty sin Torah also establishes a judicial procedure to follow. And in the case of capital crimes, you need 3 witnesses to testify. So unless gay men are having sex in view of witnesses they're safe from any religious punishment.

And finally, if G-d doesn't even exist, then neither do any of the commandments. Faith is well and good, but if you can't even admit the possibility it's all made-up then you're not doing your sdie any good because you just make it look that much more unreasonable and out-of-touch with reality.

I will research that. My Rabbi told me way back in 1987 that it was actually two separate Mitzvoteem. But if I was in error, I will of course correct it.


You wrote some very cogent thoughts. I was hoping you would stop by. Good for you.

Thanks for contributing!

Thinking of jewfaq.org/613.htm 's list og them, 18:22's mentioned once only. The following verse isn't. That said, the number of commandments itself is a mtter of debate. Hassidic University's site says 620, so maybe they count the other one as a second commandment?

Could be. At the end of the day, whether the two verses stand as one or two prohibitions is pretty much moot.

What is not moot is the deliberate use of "Man" and "Male" in 20:13, which has other implications that the non-discerning eye might miss...

maybe [MENTION=36154]Roudy[/MENTION] could have an insight into that one.

Did you notice it?

 

[Statistikhengst]

As a believer, I take scripture literally. One translation says a man shall not lie with a man as he would a woman. It is an abomination. Another says a man shall not lie with a man as he would a woman. God hates that. I don't give the subject any more weight as I do the sin of adultery. Personally, I don't give a rats ass what 2 men or 2 women do in the privacy of their own bedrooms. My problem is when they throw it in my face and say you will agree with us or we'll label you as a hater and make your life miserable. And don't tell me that is not happening.

Glad you responded, very glad you are here.

But, literal also means that you know when Jeshuah spoke in parables and not, I assume. Is that correct?

 

[Clement]

Well, in MY version of the Tanakh translated into English by the Jewish Publication Society, the text concerning sexual sins covers not only homosexual acts but also adultery, incest, and bestiality. I think we can count on the Jewish Publication Society to have preserved the intent of the law and it reads this way:

"If a man lies with a male as one lies with a woman, the two of them have done an abhorrent thing; they shall be put to death..."

Bestiality, adultery, and incest carry the same penalty. I think that's significant in light of what Paul, a Hebrew and a Pharisee, eventually says later:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


In my reading of this, Paul is saying that homosexuality, along with the gossips, the envious, the murderers, the deceitful, etc. are penalties for idolatry, creating their own gods, and exchanging the truth of the Ancient of Days for the lies of their made up Gods, or their own made up theology, if you will.

So in the OT Moses puts homosexual behavior right up there with incest and beastiality and Paul puts it right up there with the rest of the sins he delineates as recompense for abandoning the One True God. Parce the language any way you want. The abandonment of God is at the root of all sin, what a surprise.

Now this:

Yeshuah (Jesus), according to the Christian New Testament (which I have read in full six times so far in my life), was never even once quoted as having said anything at all about a homosexual act, homosexuals or homosexuality.

That can lead one to one of three possible conclusions:

1.) He was unaware of this issue (doubtful)
2.) He didn't know what to say about it (very, very doubtful)
3.) It was not important enough for him to speak about it (the most likely of the three).

You can read through all of the NT, you will not find one quote where Jeshuah specifically talks about this.

I think St. John sums this up nicely:

"Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."

'Nuff said. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Doc on last night I think is a series, 'Bible Rules' or something to that effect discussing the greater sum of commandments in the Bible. Last night was about the various sex commandments (about 22 or so of them.) Part I caught was talking about the 50% mortality rate and life expectency being about 30 years as a possible reason for the various sex-oritented commandments like no gay sex or adultery. With such catastrophic figures, reproduction becomes very important so even if only 5% of your population is exclusively gay, that still represents a sizable chunk not making babies to fight wars and continue your traditions. Thus forbidding such sexuality makes a lot of sense.

Nowadays of course, with overpopulation a growing concern, hommosexuality should be encouraged for the exact opposite reason. To say nothing of all the kids in foster homes gay couples can adopt and give loving homes for (cue Steve heh.) Now, that 5% or so don't reproduce is fine as lots of kids need homes as it is.

 

[Mertex]

True, Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. He neither condemned it nor promoted it.

Jesus' message is simple, accept that He paid for all sin of the world by His death on the cross, live by His example, love everyone as you would yourself, hate the sin and not the sinner, and love Him (God) above all else in the world. Accepting Him as your Lord then signifies that you will follow and obey his teachings.

Some Christians try to prove they are "more" Christian by trying to show God and everyone that they hate sin, by mocking and criticizing and concentrating on a couple of issues they consider sins that they find abhorrible, and forget all the others. When Jesus mandated that we love our neighbor as our self, He did not specify conditions....it's up to God to figure out who obeyed and who didn't.

"Love" is the most important thing for a Christian in any action/transaction, and yet many who call themselves Christians have taken it upon themselves to hate the sinner and try to force people into what they consider the proper behavior by ridiculing and criticizing and even by violence against them. This goes completely contrary to the teachings of Jesus, and these people are no better than the people they are trying to conform.

 

[Bloodrock44]

As a believer, I take scripture literally. One translation says a man shall not lie with a man as he would a woman. It is an abomination. Another says a man shall not lie with a man as he would a woman. God hates that. I don't give the subject any more weight as I do the sin of adultery. Personally, I don't give a rats ass what 2 men or 2 women do in the privacy of their own bedrooms. My problem is when they throw it in my face and say you will agree with us or we'll label you as a hater and make your life miserable. And don't tell me that is not happening.

Glad you responded, very glad you are here.

But, literal also means that you know when Jeshuah spoke in parables and not, I assume. Is that correct?

I am quite capable of discerning a direct command from parables and metaphors. I do not add or take away in order to justify the sin I'm involved in.

 

[Statistikhengst]

As a believer, I take scripture literally. One translation says a man shall not lie with a man as he would a woman. It is an abomination. Another says a man shall not lie with a man as he would a woman. God hates that. I don't give the subject any more weight as I do the sin of adultery. Personally, I don't give a rats ass what 2 men or 2 women do in the privacy of their own bedrooms. My problem is when they throw it in my face and say you will agree with us or we'll label you as a hater and make your life miserable. And don't tell me that is not happening.

Glad you responded, very glad you are here.

But, literal also means that you know when Jeshuah spoke in parables and not, I assume. Is that correct?

I am quite capable of discerning a direct command from parables and metaphors. I do not add or take away in order to justify the sin I'm involved in.

 

[thebrucebeat]

As a believer, I take scripture literally. One translation says a man shall not lie with a man as he would a woman. It is an abomination. Another says a man shall not lie with a man as he would a woman. God hates that. I don't give the subject any more weight as I do the sin of adultery. Personally, I don't give a rats ass what 2 men or 2 women do in the privacy of their own bedrooms. My problem is when they throw it in my face and say you will agree with us or we'll label you as a hater and make your life miserable. And don't tell me that is not happening.

You are magnanimous enough to want them to lead lives they must hide from society.
You are selling yourself with your avatar as someone who's sense of self is tied up in his masculinity. People that wore that uniform fought and died for gays to have their freedom to pursue their happiness, and not be marginalized in the shadows.
Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

 

[Statistikhengst]

As a believer, I take scripture literally. One translation says a man shall not lie with a man as he would a woman. It is an abomination. Another says a man shall not lie with a man as he would a woman. God hates that. I don't give the subject any more weight as I do the sin of adultery. Personally, I don't give a rats ass what 2 men or 2 women do in the privacy of their own bedrooms. My problem is when they throw it in my face and say you will agree with us or we'll label you as a hater and make your life miserable. And don't tell me that is not happening.

You are magnanimous enough to want them to lead lives they must hide from society.
You are selling yourself with your avatar as someone who's sense of self is tied up in his masculinity. People that wore that uniform fought and died for gays to have their freedom to pursue their happiness, and not be marginalized in the shadows.
Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

No, [MENTION=48205]thebrucebeat[/MENTION].

[MENTION=36767]Bloodrock44[/MENTION] is a respected and intelligent member of USMB, one who goes out of his way to build bridges to people of all types, Left, Right, male, female, straight, gay, Christian, Jew, muslim, Buddhist, you name it.

He is straight, as am I, but he is not narrow. And neither am I.

You are out of line for someone who is so new here and who doesn't even know the players yet. You should apologize to him, if you have any decency within yourself.

 

[Statistikhengst]

True, Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. He neither condemned it nor promoted it.

Jesus' message is simple, accept that He paid for all sin of the world by His death on the cross, live by His example, love everyone as you would yourself, hate the sin and not the sinner, and love Him (God) above all else in the world. Accepting Him as your Lord then signifies that you will follow and obey his teachings.

Some Christians try to prove they are "more" Christian by trying to show God and everyone that they hate sin, by mocking and criticizing and concentrating on a couple of issues they consider sins that they find abhorrible, and forget all the others. When Jesus mandated that we love our neighbor as our self, He did not specify conditions....it's up to God to figure out who obeyed and who didn't.

"Love" is the most important thing for a Christian in any action/transaction, and yet many who call themselves Christians have taken it upon themselves to hate the sinner and try to force people into what they consider the proper behavior by ridiculing and criticizing and even by violence against them. This goes completely contrary to the teachings of Jesus, and these people are no better than the people they are trying to conform.

 

[GISMYS]

As a believer, I take scripture literally. One translation says a man shall not lie with a man as he would a woman. It is an abomination. Another says a man shall not lie with a man as he would a woman. God hates that. I don't give the subject any more weight as I do the sin of adultery. Personally, I don't give a rats ass what 2 men or 2 women do in the privacy of their own bedrooms. My problem is when they throw it in my face and say you will agree with us or we'll label you as a hater and make your life miserable. And don't tell me that is not happening.

You are magnanimous enough to want them to lead lives they must hide from society.
You are selling yourself with your avatar as someone who's sense of self is tied up in his masculinity. People that wore that uniform fought and died for gays to have their freedom to pursue their happiness, and not be marginalized in the shadows.
Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

No, [MENTION=48205]thebrucebeat[/MENTION].

[MENTION=36767]Bloodrock44[/MENTION] is a respected andintelligent member of USMB, one who goes out of his way to build bridges to people of all types, Left, Right, male, female, straight or gay.

He is straight, as am I, but he is not narrow. And neither am I.

You are out of line for someone who is so new here and who doesn't even know the players yet. You should apologize to him, if you have any decency within yourself.

40MILLION + DEAD OF AIDS ANOTHER 40,000,000 HIV POSITIVE=RUINED LIVES OF SHAME AND GUILT=FOR WHAT???? =SICK SEXUAL PERVERSUION!!!! WHY NOT OBEY GOD???? LIVE AND NOT DIE A STINKING,ROTTING WHILE TRYING TO HANG on to life,crying,screaming,cursing slow death then judgment day!!! THINK!