Hamas, Fatah Agree Palestinian Authority To Take Control Of Gaza

[Phoenall]

If Israel wants to be recognized as a "Jewish State" then it might have problems also claiming recogniztion as a democratic state.

I do find it odd how people can create such monumental double standards as they do. They advocate for a Palestinian state for a people who were created out of whole cloth just a few decades ago, but when it comes to a state for Jewish people -- folks who have existed as a people for over 3000 years -- suddenly, it is non Democratic to even acknowledge it as such.

What ever you choose to call the Palestinians they are people and descendents of indiginous people who have lived their as long as the indiginous Jews. Just as we don't have the right to decide how Israel chooses to define itself, neither do we have a right to decide how a people will define itself or whether they have a right to live on land they have lived on for hundreds or thousands of years.

Talk about monumental double standards.

As far as a democratic state it is hard to have a truly democratic state, that is also a religious state. I can't think of any examples.

There is no concrete evidence that the arab muslims have lived on the land for hundreds or thousands of years, at the most they can barely go back 3 or 4 generations. There is no way a backwards 3rd world group could produce multiple births every 9 months to increase the population by 100% every 10 years, that could only be achieved by illegal migration in vast numbers. Before the Jews gave them hospitals, doctors and health centres they had the worst live birth record in the world

 

[Coyote]

If Israel wants to be recognized as a "Jewish State" then it might have problems also claiming recogniztion as a democratic state.

I do find it odd how people can create such monumental double standards as they do. They advocate for a Palestinian state for a people who were created out of whole cloth just a few decades ago, but when it comes to a state for Jewish people -- folks who have existed as a people for over 3000 years -- suddenly, it is non Democratic to even acknowledge it as such.

What ever you choose to call the Palestinians they are people and descendents of indiginous people who have lived their as long as the indiginous Jews. Just as we don't have the right to decide how Israel chooses to define itself, neither do we have a right to decide how a people will define itself or whether they have a right to live on land they have lived on for hundreds or thousands of years.

Talk about monumental double standards.

As far as a democratic state it is hard to have a truly democratic state, that is also a religious state. I can't think of any examples.

There is no concrete evidence that the arab muslims have lived on the land for hundreds or thousands of years, at the most they can barely go back 3 or 4 generations. There is no way a backwards 3rd world group could produce multiple births every 9 months to increase the population by 100% every 10 years, that could only be achieved by illegal migration in vast numbers. Before the Jews gave them hospitals, doctors and health centres they had the worst live birth record in the world

Are you suggesting that the land was inhabited only by Jews until 3 or 4 generations ago?

 

[aris2chat]

If Israel wants to be recognized as a "Jewish State" then it might have problems also claiming recogniztion as a democratic state.

I do find it odd how people can create such monumental double standards as they do. They advocate for a Palestinian state for a people who were created out of whole cloth just a few decades ago, but when it comes to a state for Jewish people -- folks who have existed as a people for over 3000 years -- suddenly, it is non Democratic to even acknowledge it as such.

What ever you choose to call the Palestinians they are people and descendents of indiginous people who have lived their as long as the indiginous Jews. Just as we don't have the right to decide how Israel chooses to define itself, neither do we have a right to decide how a people will define itself or whether they have a right to live on land they have lived on for hundreds or thousands of years.

Talk about monumental double standards.

As far as a democratic state it is hard to have a truly democratic state, that is also a religious state. I can't think of any examples.

There is no concrete evidence that the arab muslims have lived on the land for hundreds or thousands of years, at the most they can barely go back 3 or 4 generations. There is no way a backwards 3rd world group could produce multiple births every 9 months to increase the population by 100% every 10 years, that could only be achieved by illegal migration in vast numbers. Before the Jews gave them hospitals, doctors and health centres they had the worst live birth record in the world

Are you suggesting that the land was inhabited only by Jews until 3 or 4 generations ago?

It used to be made up from a number of nationalities, races, tribes, religions and denominations. It was a melting pot of centuries from every invasion that cross the land. They did not have a "palestinian" identity till after the mandate ended. Anyone who had lived and worked at least two years before the mandate ended was classified as palestinian.

Like the syrian refugees, palestinians left to avoid war or escape war. They were not all forced to leave. Israel had asked them to stay and share in building the nation, but they made the choice not to stay.
Only a small number, because of terrorist ties were actually forced out of the country. Others might have been moved as land was appropriated for infrastructure or defense but they would have been compensated with money or land.
Abandoned land was considered Israeli, part of the state, and rented out. Most land is state owned, little is actually private land.

 

[Phoenall]

If Israel wants to be recognized as a "Jewish State" then it might have problems also claiming recogniztion as a democratic state.

I do find it odd how people can create such monumental double standards as they do. They advocate for a Palestinian state for a people who were created out of whole cloth just a few decades ago, but when it comes to a state for Jewish people -- folks who have existed as a people for over 3000 years -- suddenly, it is non Democratic to even acknowledge it as such.

What ever you choose to call the Palestinians they are people and descendents of indiginous people who have lived their as long as the indiginous Jews. Just as we don't have the right to decide how Israel chooses to define itself, neither do we have a right to decide how a people will define itself or whether they have a right to live on land they have lived on for hundreds or thousands of years.

Talk about monumental double standards.

As far as a democratic state it is hard to have a truly democratic state, that is also a religious state. I can't think of any examples.

Indeed, and shouldn't the indigenous population have at least an equal say as to what kind of state will be in their homeland?

Depends on if they are hostile to the nation or not, why did the US do exactly the same as Israel during WW2 when it kicked out all the Japanese, Italians and Germans ? Could it be that they knew the International law that allowed them to do so just as the Jews knew the same international law

 

[Dogmaphobe]

It used to be made up from a number of nationalities, races, tribes, religions and denominations. It was a melting pot of centuries from every invasion that cross the land. They did not have a "palestinian" identity till after the mandate ended. Anyone who had lived and worked at least two years before the mandate ended was classified as palestinian.

Like the syrian refugees, palestinians left to avoid war or escape war. They were not all forced to leave. Israel had asked them to stay and share in building the nation, but they made the choice not to stay.
Only a small number, because of terrorist ties were actually forced out of the country. Others might have been moved as land was appropriated for infrastructure or defense but they would have been compensated with money or land.
Abandoned land was considered Israeli, part of the state, and rented out. Most land is state owned, little is actually private land.

As usual, this discussion ends up with people such as yourself who know history up against those whose head was a complete vacuum on the subject prior to a few years ago, but who have filled that vacuum with all the propaganda they read at anti-Zionist hate sites. The themes, and especially the language used is very telling as to the nature of their education on the subject.

 

[Phoenall]

If Israel wants to be recognized as a "Jewish State" then it might have problems also claiming recogniztion as a democratic state.

I do find it odd how people can create such monumental double standards as they do. They advocate for a Palestinian state for a people who were created out of whole cloth just a few decades ago, but when it comes to a state for Jewish people -- folks who have existed as a people for over 3000 years -- suddenly, it is non Democratic to even acknowledge it as such.

What ever you choose to call the Palestinians they are people and descendents of indiginous people who have lived their as long as the indiginous Jews. Just as we don't have the right to decide how Israel chooses to define itself, neither do we have a right to decide how a people will define itself or whether they have a right to live on land they have lived on for hundreds or thousands of years.

Talk about monumental double standards.

As far as a democratic state it is hard to have a truly democratic state, that is also a religious state. I can't think of any examples.

There is no concrete evidence that the arab muslims have lived on the land for hundreds or thousands of years, at the most they can barely go back 3 or 4 generations. There is no way a backwards 3rd world group could produce multiple births every 9 months to increase the population by 100% every 10 years, that could only be achieved by illegal migration in vast numbers. Before the Jews gave them hospitals, doctors and health centres they had the worst live birth record in the world

Are you suggesting that the land was inhabited only by Jews until 3 or 4 generations ago?

Not at all, just that the Palestinians are not as indigenous as you believe, what I am saying is that many of the so called Palestinians cant trace their ancestry in Palestine back and further than the very late 1800's when they travelled to Palestine on the promise of work.

 

[Coyote]

If Israel wants to be recognized as a "Jewish State" then it might have problems also claiming recogniztion as a democratic state.

I do find it odd how people can create such monumental double standards as they do. They advocate for a Palestinian state for a people who were created out of whole cloth just a few decades ago, but when it comes to a state for Jewish people -- folks who have existed as a people for over 3000 years -- suddenly, it is non Democratic to even acknowledge it as such.

What ever you choose to call the Palestinians they are people and descendents of indiginous people who have lived their as long as the indiginous Jews. Just as we don't have the right to decide how Israel chooses to define itself, neither do we have a right to decide how a people will define itself or whether they have a right to live on land they have lived on for hundreds or thousands of years.

Talk about monumental double standards.

As far as a democratic state it is hard to have a truly democratic state, that is also a religious state. I can't think of any examples.

There is no concrete evidence that the arab muslims have lived on the land for hundreds or thousands of years, at the most they can barely go back 3 or 4 generations. There is no way a backwards 3rd world group could produce multiple births every 9 months to increase the population by 100% every 10 years, that could only be achieved by illegal migration in vast numbers. Before the Jews gave them hospitals, doctors and health centres they had the worst live birth record in the world

Are you suggesting that the land was inhabited only by Jews until 3 or 4 generations ago?

It used to be made up from a number of nationalities, races, tribes, religions and denominations. It was a melting pot of centuries from every invasion that cross the land. They did not have a "palestinian" identity till after the mandate ended. Anyone who had lived and worked at least two years before the mandate ended was classified as palestinian.

They may not have had a Palestinian identity but they were there - they and their forbears existed in that place - regardless of what label they were given.

Like the syrian refugees, palestinians left to avoid war or escape war. They were not all forced to leave. Israel had asked them to stay and share in building the nation, but they made the choice not to stay.
Only a small number, because of terrorist ties were actually forced out of the country. Others might have been moved as land was appropriated for infrastructure or defense but they would have been compensated with money or land.
Abandoned land was considered Israeli, part of the state, and rented out. Most land is state owned, little is actually private land.

Not entirely true. There is a good bit of debate on that but I think it's disengenious to say that only a small number were forced out and it was solely because of terrorist ties: Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia Some were compensated. Some are still waiting. Some never will be. The policies of appropriation were pretty harsh: Palestine-Israel Journal b Arab Lands in Israel A Festering Wound b The Syrian Arabs forced out of the Golan Heights, their lands are farmed by setttlers and their claims languish in the courts after 40 years. Whenever land IS appropriated for infrastructure or defense - it's always Palestinian lands isn't it?

 

[Coyote]

If Israel wants to be recognized as a "Jewish State" then it might have problems also claiming recogniztion as a democratic state.

I do find it odd how people can create such monumental double standards as they do. They advocate for a Palestinian state for a people who were created out of whole cloth just a few decades ago, but when it comes to a state for Jewish people -- folks who have existed as a people for over 3000 years -- suddenly, it is non Democratic to even acknowledge it as such.

What ever you choose to call the Palestinians they are people and descendents of indiginous people who have lived their as long as the indiginous Jews. Just as we don't have the right to decide how Israel chooses to define itself, neither do we have a right to decide how a people will define itself or whether they have a right to live on land they have lived on for hundreds or thousands of years.

Talk about monumental double standards.

As far as a democratic state it is hard to have a truly democratic state, that is also a religious state. I can't think of any examples.

There is no concrete evidence that the arab muslims have lived on the land for hundreds or thousands of years, at the most they can barely go back 3 or 4 generations. There is no way a backwards 3rd world group could produce multiple births every 9 months to increase the population by 100% every 10 years, that could only be achieved by illegal migration in vast numbers. Before the Jews gave them hospitals, doctors and health centres they had the worst live birth record in the world

Are you suggesting that the land was inhabited only by Jews until 3 or 4 generations ago?

Not at all, just that the Palestinians are not as indigenous as you believe, what I am saying is that many of the so called Palestinians cant trace their ancestry in Palestine back and further than the very late 1800's when they travelled to Palestine on the promise of work.

Using that logic, neither can many of the Jews who immigrated to Israel from Europe. There are pretty good pretty good records that, while not 100% accurate, give a good accounting as to movements of people in and out of Palestine and the indiginous population prior to immigration: MidEast Web - Population of Palestine

 

[aris2chat]

It used to be made up from a number of nationalities, races, tribes, religions and denominations. It was a melting pot of centuries from every invasion that cross the land. They did not have a "palestinian" identity till after the mandate ended. Anyone who had lived and worked at least two years before the mandate ended was classified as palestinian.

Like the syrian refugees, palestinians left to avoid war or escape war. They were not all forced to leave. Israel had asked them to stay and share in building the nation, but they made the choice not to stay.
Only a small number, because of terrorist ties were actually forced out of the country. Others might have been moved as land was appropriated for infrastructure or defense but they would have been compensated with money or land.
Abandoned land was considered Israeli, part of the state, and rented out. Most land is state owned, little is actually private land.

As usual, this discussion ends up with people such as yourself who know history up against those whose head was a complete vacuum on the subject prior to a few years ago, but who have filled that vacuum with all the propaganda they read at anti-Zionist hate sites. The themes, and especially the language used is very telling as to the nature of their education on the subject.

One noted exception is the land on which the Knessit was built. That is private land owned by a greek orthodox and rented to Israel by the century.
The keys for the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem are held by a muslim who opens and close the doors every day.
The temple mount is Israeli but the management is the responsibility of the king of Jordan and the Waqf.
Much of northern Israel used to belong to a Lebanese christian who sold Israel the land.
Arafat's family sold land to the jews in Jerusalem. Now they claim the sale null and void, under an old jordanian laws, but will not return the money paid.
Land owned by jews under the arab/ottoman rule or the mandate could only be sold to another jews or to the synagogue and to be rented to a jew. For years they could not buy land till the 19th century when the ottomans permitted prayer at the wall and invited jews to buy land and develop the region that was their traditional homeland. At that time the mosques and building on the mount was in tragic disrepair till the king of Jordan paid for the refurbish and the gold to cover the dome in 1955. Till the end of the 19th century Jerusalem was near forgotten by the muslims. Even now needed repairs are not permitted on the mount, the wall or the entrance ways without Jordanian and waqf permission. Visitors and those below the walls are endangered. The al-Aqsa could be destroyed with a moderate earthquake, which the region are prone to. It has been damaged many times in the past from earthquakes.
Like so much, the use of land in the region is not so black and white.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Not at all, just that the Palestinians are not as indigenous as you believe, what I am saying is that many of the so called Palestinians cant trace their ancestry in Palestine back and further than the very late 1800's when they travelled to Palestine on the promise of work.

People always follow economic opportunity. That any poster needs this explained speaks of their lack of basic understanding as to how the world works.

We have had a huge influx of Mexicans in this country seeking just that. There is already a Mexico and there is already a United States, but should the recent Mexican immigrants ever want a claim to the land, it appears that all they would need to do is invent some new identity for themselves as somebody distinct from Mexican in order to fool the gullible into giving it to them.

Coyote is simply not honest enough to admit that Palestinians are Arabs. They speak Arabic, they follow Arabic customs, and they are less different from other Arabs than are New Yorkers from Texans. Arabs already control vast expanses of land, including that section set up for a Palestinian Arab country called Jordan, but that is not good enough for Coyote.She wants Arabs to have it ALL. That tiny little speck of land representing Jews has to be overrun for her to be content. Who cares if a GREATER number of Jews were kicked out of Arab lands than there were Arabs who left what is now Israel. That is immaterial to her, because she is not interested in fairness. All she is interested in is her agenda, and since that agenda does not regard Jews with the same consideration it does Arabs, one can only wonder why.

 

[Daniyel]

According to historical records we do see that the majority in Jerusalem we actually Jews compared to Muslims/Christians[Arabs/Others].
The most obvious fact is that the Arab Muslims had no reason to siege Jerusalem in 1947 in the first place, unless this was a Jewish city.
Moving on.
The Palestinians in Israel were hostile from the beginning to the Jews long before Israel established, what are you trying to suggest? Give violence the stage? The so called 'Palestinian' identity whether they had one or not, could be fully recognized a long time ago, this train already left the station since they made themselves enemies of Israel and still remained to be enemies of Israel to this day, sparing the minority who is not which is obviously not the subject lets put them aside because it has to be clear we are not talking about the productive kind of people, we are talking about the hostile and counter productive, violent majority of Palestinians that chose to fight Israel with 5[6] armies once Israel been established, that's not the kind of people anyone wants to live with, so lets talk about the things that matter, what Israel did with those people? forced them away instead of massacring them, they saw it as weakness and continued their attempts to destroy Israel, if you want to talk about numbers I'm sorry but I don't think it matters anymore once you see the Palestinian leadership, the majority is fairly represented.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

people in and out of Palestine

Here is Palestine:

See how much land was set aside for The Arabs?

Now, considering the Arabs kicked out something in the neighborhood of 900,000 Jews, and around 600,000 Arabs left during the wars they waged against the fledgling state, why do you lack the basic human decency to recognize that since the Arabs already control more of Palestine than Jews by a long shot, even as more Jews were displaced from Arab lands than visa versa that there has already been a winnowing of populations that is more than fair to the Arabs?

 

[Coyote]

Not at all, just that the Palestinians are not as indigenous as you believe, what I am saying is that many of the so called Palestinians cant trace their ancestry in Palestine back and further than the very late 1800's when they travelled to Palestine on the promise of work.

People always follow economic opportunity. That any poster needs this explained speaks of their lack of basic understanding as to how the world works.

We have had a huge influx of Mexicans in this country seeking just that. There is already a Mexico and there is already a United States, but should the recent Mexican immigrants ever want a claim to the land, it appears that all they would need to do is invent some new identity for themselves as somebody distinct from Mexican in order to fool the gullible into giving it to them.

Coyote is simply not honest enough to admit that Palestinians are Arabs. They speak Arabic, they follow Arabic customs, and they are less different from other Arabs than are New Yorkers from Texans. Arabs already control vast expanses of land, including that section set up for a Palestinian Arab country called Jordan, but that is not good enough for Coyote.She wants Arabs to have it ALL. That tiny little speck of land representing Jews has to be overrun for her to be content. Who cares if a GREATER number of Jews were kicked out of Arab lands than there were Arabs who left what is now Israel. That is immaterial to her, because she is not interested in fairness. All she is interested in is her agenda, and since that agenda does not regard Jews with the same consideration it does Arabs, one can only wonder why.

That's a pretty stupid statement and adds nothing to the discussion beyond trolling. You primary skill here appears to be that of a would-be mind reader who can't actually address the subject but instead likes to put words in other people's mouths.

Let's look at your words.

There is no comparison between Mexico/America and Israel/Palestinian. Both are long established nations and very different histories.

Every "people" started out as a "non people". When they became a "people" is utterly irrelevant to the question of rights. Whether or not they are Arabs is utterly irrelevant. Brits, Germans, Italians, Swiss, French etc are all Europeans. Why do they need so many countries? The Palestinians may be "Arabs" but they are all Semetic peoples who have mixed about in that region for thousands of years.

If you want to discuss Jews kicked out of Arab lands then please, let's discuss them - but don't be putting words in my mouth based on your own bigoted and ignorant viewpoints.

 

[Coyote]

people in and out of Palestine

Here is Palestine:

See how much land was set aside for The Arabs?

Now, considering the Arabs kicked out something in the neighborhood of 900,000 Jews, and around 600,000 Arabs left during the wars they waged against the fledgling state, why do you lack the basic human decency to recognize that since the Arabs already control more of Palestine than Jews by a long shot, even as more Jews were displaced from Arab lands than visa versa that there has already been a winnowing of populations that is more than fair to the Arabs?

The Arabs aren't "one people". Don't try to tell them that.

As far as the Jews that were expelled - they should have their lands returned or just compensation, but that is an issue that needs to be taken up with each country. You don't trade off someone else's rights to right another one's wrong.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

That's a pretty stupid statement and adds nothing to the discussion beyond trolling. You primary skill here appears to be that of a would-be mind reader who can't actually address the subject but instead likes to put words in other people's mouths.

.

Well, actually I didn't need to put the word "no" in your mouth as to whether or not you possessed the human decency necessary to be fair.

Your Arab supremacist mind set screamed it out pretty loudly.

What is it about Jews that elicits this bigotry in you, anyway?

 

[Coyote]

That's a pretty stupid statement and adds nothing to the discussion beyond trolling. You primary skill here appears to be that of a would-be mind reader who can't actually address the subject but instead likes to put words in other people's mouths.

.

Well, actually I didn't need to put the word "no" in your mouth as to whether or not you possessed the human decency necessary to be fair.

Your Arab supremacist mind set screamed it out pretty loudly.

What is it about Jews that elicits this bigotry in you, anyway?

Arab supremacist? Since when does a recognition of the basic rights of people make one an Arab supremacist? Don't quit your day job - mind reading is not your forte.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Arab supremacist? Since when does a recognition of the basic rights of people make one an Arab supremacist? Don't quit your day job - mind reading is not your forte.

The "basic rights" of a group of genocidal maniacs to overrun the country of the targets of their hatred?

That you would consider this a "right" says worlds.

If Pally Arabs spent one tenth as much effort on improving themselves as they do wanting to Kill Jews, they might amount to something. Just because a person's grandfather one stepped foot on a piece of land, that does not mean those who bought and developed the land have to give it up just to make you happy.

 

[Coyote]

Arab supremacist? Since when does a recognition of the basic rights of people make one an Arab supremacist? Don't quit your day job - mind reading is not your forte.

The "basic rights" of a group of genocidal maniacs to overrun the country of the targets of their hatred?

What genocidal maniacs?

That you would consider this a "right" says worlds.

What are you talking about?

If Pally Arabs spent one tenth as much effort on improving themselves as they do wanting to Kill Jews, they might amount to something. Just because a person's grandfather one stepped foot on a piece of land, that does not mean those who bought and developed the land have to give it up just to make you happy.

It's not about making "me" happy.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I do find it odd how people can create such monumental double standards as they do. They advocate for a Palestinian state for a people who were created out of whole cloth just a few decades ago, but when it comes to a state for Jewish people -- folks who have existed as a people for over 3000 years -- suddenly, it is non Democratic to even acknowledge it as such.

What ever you choose to call the Palestinians they are people and descendents of indiginous people who have lived their as long as the indiginous Jews. Just as we don't have the right to decide how Israel chooses to define itself, neither do we have a right to decide how a people will define itself or whether they have a right to live on land they have lived on for hundreds or thousands of years.

Talk about monumental double standards.

As far as a democratic state it is hard to have a truly democratic state, that is also a religious state. I can't think of any examples.

There is no concrete evidence that the arab muslims have lived on the land for hundreds or thousands of years, at the most they can barely go back 3 or 4 generations. There is no way a backwards 3rd world group could produce multiple births every 9 months to increase the population by 100% every 10 years, that could only be achieved by illegal migration in vast numbers. Before the Jews gave them hospitals, doctors and health centres they had the worst live birth record in the world

Are you suggesting that the land was inhabited only by Jews until 3 or 4 generations ago?

Not at all, just that the Palestinians are not as indigenous as you believe, what I am saying is that many of the so called Palestinians cant trace their ancestry in Palestine back and further than the very late 1800's when they travelled to Palestine on the promise of work.

Using that logic, neither can many of the Jews who immigrated to Israel from Europe. There are pretty good pretty good records that, while not 100% accurate, give a good accounting as to movements of people in and out of Palestine and the indiginous population prior to immigration: MidEast Web - Population of Palestine

Good points. Good link.

In the mid 1500s the Palestinian village of Najd had a population of about 300 people. By 1948 it had a population of about 700. What does this tell us?

It is likely that Najd predates Ottoman rule.

Its existence was much longer than a few generations.

The population growth was less that 1% per year. Normal population growth is closer to 3%. We can conclude that there was no immigration there.

Why would there be such a small increase in population? I believe that we can look at urbanization. It is normal for people to move from the farms to the cities particularly in the age of industrialization. With literally hundreds of villages there could be a large influx of Palestinians into urban areas that would not be immigration from other countries but internal migration.

I am not saying that there was no immigration but it was less than some people think and immigration by some does not negate the rights of others.

 

[Coyote]

er countries but internal migration.

I am not saying that there was no immigration but it was less than some people think and immigration by some does not negate the rights of others.

Exactly!