Free Will?

[GotZoom]

Of course I know about the Biblical account of S&G - but what's that have to do w/ the topic?

Are you not able to keep up with your own posts?

I said:: There are many, many references in the Bible that discuss the people who turned their back on God; and the punishment they received.

Those who "chose" not to follow Him, were punished.

You said: Bible verses please..... and try not to take them out of context... ..
----
You were aksing me to back up with I said about people who turned their back on God; and the punishment they received.


__________________
".. If you do

n't know if you're stupid or not - well - then.... you probably are...."

 

[-Cp]

Are you not able to keep up with your own posts?

I said:: There are many, many references in the Bible that discuss the people who turned their back on God; and the punishment they received.

Those who "chose" not to follow Him, were punished.

You said: Bible verses please..... and try not to take them out of context... ..
----
You were aksing me to back up with I said about people who turned their back on God; and the punishment they received.

Of course I can keep up with my own posts... but again - I ask, what does the story of S&G got to do with the topic? Sounds to me, like you don't know the story too well...

They were destroyed for "sin so grievous" (Genesis 18:20) - again, if you'd start actually reading your Bible and stating sources from scripture, you'd really help out your arguements....

 

[GotZoom]

Of course I can keep up with my own posts... but again - I ask, what does the story of S&G got to do with the topic? Sounds to me, like you don't know the story too well...

They were destroyed for "sin so grievous" (Genesis 18:20) - again, if you'd start actually reading your Bible and stating sources from scripture, you'd really help out your arguements....

You are all over the place.

The people of S&G turned their back on God (chose not to follow Him) and instead CHOSE to follow sin.

Jude 1:7

Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having, in the same way as these, given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

 

[-Cp]

You are all over the place.

The people of S&G turned their back on God (chose not to follow Him) and instead CHOSE to follow sin.

Jude 1:7

Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having, in the same way as these, given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

I'm not all over the place - just trying to help educate you on why S&G was destroyed. It's QUITE CLEAR:

Genesis 18:20 Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous

They were destroyed for their ultra-wicked ways... Nowhere in scripture - not even the source you cited - does it say that they were ever God-fearing Cities...


Again, you're citing old-testament stories to help solidfy your position - God changed his behaviors towards man in the New Testmant because of Grace...

 

[dmp]

You are all over the place.

The people of S&G turned their back on God (chose not to follow Him) and instead CHOSE to follow sin.

Jude 1:7

Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having, in the same way as these, given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

I highlighted an important part

Those people CHOSE to be Homos. They CHOSE to try to break into Lot's house and rape those Angels.

Choice. God didn't force or otherwise coerce them into playing rump-rangers.

and their other sins...

 

[Abbey Normal]

New Testament:

Mark 8:14 Now [the disciples] had forgotten to take bread, neither had they in the ship with them more than one loaf.

Mark 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and [of] the leaven of Herod.

Mark 8:16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, [It is] because we have no bread.

Mark 8:17 And when Jesus knew [it], he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? Perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?

Mark 8:18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?

Commentary on the verse:

"Obstinate unbelief will have something to say, though ever so unreasonable. Christ refused to answer their demand. If they will not be convinced, they shall not. Alas! what cause we have to lament for those around us, who destroy themselves and others by their perverse and obstinate unbelief, and enmity to the gospel!"

Does that hit the spot?

 

[-Cp]

I highlighted an important part

Those people CHOSE to be Homos. They CHOSE to try to break into Lot's house and rape those Angels.

Choice. God didn't force or otherwise coerce them into playing rump-rangers.

and their other sins...

That's a great argument for proving homo's are butt-pirates by choice, but not for "proving" man has Free Will to somehow "choose God"...

The only thing those sinners had the will to choose was what kind of sin they were going to participate in...

 

[-Cp]

New Testament:

Mark 8:14 Now [the disciples] had forgotten to take bread, neither had they in the ship with them more than one loaf.

Mark 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and [of] the leaven of Herod.

Mark 8:16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, [It is] because we have no bread.

Mark 8:17 And when Jesus knew [it], he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? Perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?

Mark 8:18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?

Commentary on the verse:

"Obstinate unbelief will have something to say, though ever so unreasonable. Christ refused to answer their demand. If they will not be convinced, they shall not. Alas! what cause we have to lament for those around us, who destroy themselves and others by their perverse and obstinate unbelief, and enmity to the gospel!"

Does that hit the spot?

No... most christians go thru times when they're calused (hardened) toward's God and his ways - that doesn't mean, however, they somehow lose their salvation and are never reconciled back to Him...

 

[dmp]

I'm not all over the place - just trying to help educate you on why S&G was destroyed. It's QUITE CLEAR:

Genesis 18:20 Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous

They were destroyed for their ultra-wicked ways... Nowhere in scripture - not even the source you cited - does it say that they were ever God-fearing Cities...


Again, you're citing old-testament stories to help solidfy your position - God changed his behaviors towards man in the New Testmant because of Grace...

Matthew 4:19

19"Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."

You would argue it impossible for those men to stay where they were.

Matthew 5:13-16
... let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

LET your light shine. Clear implication the power control our light is 'ours'.

2 Chronicles 16:7-10 (New International Version)
7 At that time Hanani the seer came to Asa king of Judah and said to him: "Because you relied on the king of Aram and not on the LORD your God, the army of the king of Aram has escaped from your hand. 8 Were not the Cushites and Libyans a mighty army with great numbers of chariots and horsemen? Yet when you relied on the LORD, he delivered them into your hand. 9 For the eyes of the LORD range throughout the earth to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him. You have done a foolish thing, and from now on you will be at war."

Clearly, God looks for those who have FULLY committed to Him. The power to Serve God or not lies SOLELY upon each individual.

It really can't get more clear than that, Duane. Just open your eyes to the possibility you may be incorrect. What does your Heart tell you? What does the Holy Spirit tell you? Toss aside your mind, and seek God's for a bit.

 

[-Cp]

You would argue it impossible for those men to stay where they were..

I'd argue that this statement has nothign to do with one's salvation but has everything to do with Christ turning those men into Disciples.

LET your light shine. Clear implication the power control our light is 'ours'..

Again, our light has nothing to do with a state of salvation in this context - he's referring to allow Him (the Spirit) to pour out of our lives (he's referred to as "The Light")..[/QUOTE]

Clearly, God looks for those who have FULLY committed to Him. The power to Serve God or not lies SOLELY upon each individual.

It really can't get more clear than that, Duane. Just open your eyes to the possibility you may be incorrect. What does your Heart tell you? What does the Holy Spirit tell you? Toss aside your mind, and seek God's for a bit.

It's every clear to me- in fact, I was raised (as you were) to believe that somehow Man had "Free Will" - we were indoctrinated into that belief...

Again, ya'll seem to have issues with CLEAR scripture which states:

Romans 9
6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."[c]

10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," 26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "[j]

It wasn't until I started actually reading the Bible and "Tossing aside my mind (and what I was raised to believe), that I changed my opinion on it..

 

[dmp]

I'd argue that this statement has nothign to do with one's salvation but has everything to do with Christ turning those men into Disciples.

You can argue that, but it makes no sense to take that viewpoint.

Again, our light has nothing to do with a state of salvation in this context - he's referring to allow Him (the Spirit) to pour out of our lives (he's referred to as "The Light")..

That doesn't matter - it's an example showing we have the FREE WILL to either 'let that light shine' or 'hide it'.

It's every clear to me- in fact, I was raised (as you were) to believe that somehow Man had "Free Will" - we were indoctrinated into that belief...

It wasn't until I started actually reading the Bible and "Tossing aside my mind (and what I was raised to believe), that I changed my opinion on it..

Acts 13:16-43
"After this, God gave them judges until the time of Samuel the prophet. 21Then the people asked for a king, and he gave them Saul son of Kish, of the tribe of Benjamin, who ruled forty years. 22After removing Saul, he made David their king. He testified concerning him: 'I have found David son of Jesse a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.'

Again - Clearly God is saying there are OTHERS who absolutely will NOT do 'everything God wants them to'. Others have the FREE will to NOT obey God.

How can you argue against that? You are saying you believe God does NOT want 'love' from us. We CANNOT love those who take captive our hearts with force - stockholm syndrome notwithstanding.

 

[Abbey Normal]

Really an impossible debate, which is what makes it so much fun to engage in.

I think when GOP Jeff quoted this and commented, he said it all:

""Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.” The onus is on us to accept the gift of God through Jesus Christ."


Unless we have free will to accept or reject God, the verse makes no sense.
I guess that is the bottom line for me on the topic.

 

[GotZoom]

God admonishes us to consider our choice.

“See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments . . . I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live” (Deuteronomy 30:15-19).

Oh..sorry....Old Testament....

This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

God desires all men to be saved. Not God tells all men, not God forces all men, God desires. The implication is that we can do what God wants us to. Or not.

Our choice.

 

[dmp]

Really an impossible debate, which is what makes it so much fun to engage in.

I think when GOP Jeff quoted this and commneted, he said it all:

""Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.” The onus is on us to accept the gift of God through Jesus Christ."


Unless we have free will to accept or reject God, the verse makes no sense.
I guess that is the bottom line for me on the topic.

Agreed. I'm starting to see circular logic...

 

[-Cp]

God admonishes us to consider our choice.

“See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments . . . I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live” (Deuteronomy 30:15-19).

Oh..sorry....Old Testament....

Good try... I never said we don't have basic choices in life..... Same principle in me choosing to grab a life preserver if I'm drowning....

 

[dmp]

Tell ya what, D - I'll spring for inside Skirt Steaks and beer - you and gop_jeff are WELCOME to bring your bibles, and come debate things at my place...I'll capture the highlights on video.

 

[-Cp]

You can argue that, but it makes no sense to take that viewpoint.

That doesn't matter - it's an example showing we have the FREE WILL to either 'let that light shine' or 'hide it'

Again - Clearly God is saying there are OTHERS who absolutely will NOT do 'everything God wants them to'. Others have the FREE will to NOT obey God.

How can you argue against that? You are saying you believe God does NOT want 'love' from us. We CANNOT love those who take captive our hearts with force - stockholm syndrome notwithstanding.

Your arguments say nothing to the fact that manking, somehow, has a "free will" to choose God.... Adam had that choice and blew it for everyone - we're all born sinners thanks to him.. we did not CHOOSE that... he did..

The ONLY way we can somehow "choose" God if if he first chooses us.. "Free Will" implies that man can somehow go and find God on his own accord... which isn't Biblical...

 

[-Cp]

Tell ya what, D - I'll spring for inside Skirt Steaks and beer - you and gop_jeff are WELCOME to bring your bibles, and come debate things at my place...I'll capture the highlights on video.

Just as along as we can "get together as brothers and pray"..

 

[Abbey Normal]

Tell ya what, D - I'll spring for inside Skirt Steaks and beer - you and gop_jeff are WELCOME to bring your bibles, and come debate things at my place...I'll capture the highlights on video.

Sure, shutting out the women again.

 

[-Cp]

Sure, shutting out the women again.

Do you live in WA? Near Tacoma-area?