Free Will?

gop_jeff said:
So if God has decided who is saved and who is not (since youve now jumped into predestination), what is the point of righteous behavior or confessions of faith, if it has no bearing on one's salvation?

BTW - great post Avatar, and great Scripture reference.


Yeah Avatar, great way to use Scripture out of context.... Rather convenient that you left out the next verse where they said

"Then the people answered, "Far be it from us to forsake the LORD to serve other gods! 17 It was the LORD our God himself who brought us and our fathers up out of Egypt, from that land of slavery, and performed those great signs before our eyes. He protected us on our entire journey and among all the nations through which we traveled. 18 And the LORD drove out before us all the nations, including the Amorites, who lived in the land. We too will serve the LORD, because he is our God."

Additionally, Jeff - those whom God calls unto Salvation practice righteous behavior because of their love for God and because the Spirit empowers them to do so...

1 John 3
4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

The Greek word for "Continues" here means to "Practice" - "9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (NAS Version)....


I know how important it is for Christians to feel as if they have "full control" over their own salvation but that's contradictory to Christ's work on the Cross - as "No one is saved by works, lest any man should boast"...

Additionally, the only way someone can come to the realization that their a sinner is to have the spirit convict them of their sins (or expose them to their own sin) - so, ultimately, it's up to God's Spirit to "speak to people" - giving them knowledge of their sins...

The Bible clearly teaches us in Romans that "We are all born Sinners" - and that the only thing we know how to do is "Sin" - "Through one man (Adam), sin entered the world, and through one man (Jesus) we have a way out of that sin"..

However, because we're born into the Sin condition - our hearts are already preconceived to darkness... we have no way of knowing we're in Sin until the Spirit shows us through conviction...
 
"Then the people answered, "Far be it from us to forsake the LORD to serve other gods! 17 It was the LORD our God himself who brought us and our fathers up out of Egypt, from that land of slavery, and performed those great signs before our eyes. He protected us on our entire journey and among all the nations through which we traveled. 18 And the LORD drove out before us all the nations, including the Amorites, who lived in the land. We too will serve the LORD, because he is our God."

The people chose to serve the LORD. They could have just as easily chose not too. God brought them out of Egypt, gave them signs, protected them, etc.

But they did not have to CHOOSE to serve Him.
 
GotZoom said:
"Then the people answered, "Far be it from us to forsake the LORD to serve other gods! 17 It was the LORD our God himself who brought us and our fathers up out of Egypt, from that land of slavery, and performed those great signs before our eyes. He protected us on our entire journey and among all the nations through which we traveled. 18 And the LORD drove out before us all the nations, including the Amorites, who lived in the land. We too will serve the LORD, because he is our God."

The people chose to serve the LORD. They could have just as easily chose not too. God brought them out of Egypt, gave them signs, protected them, etc.

But they did not have to CHOOSE to serve Him.

Where does it say in there that they could've "Easily chose not too"?

You guys are soo good at ignoring BLATANT scripture - which I've laid out before you in order to somehow "prove your point"...

There's a way to study the Bible called Hermeneutics - which states you let scripture interpet scripture and also "that which is overtly clear always covers that which is not so clear in understanding"....
 
-Cp said:
Additionally, Jeff - those whom God calls unto Salvation practice righteous behavior because of their love for God and because the Spirit empowers them to do so...

My point in asking that question is that there would be no need for a confession of faith, baptism, good deeds, etc. etc. if our salvation is predetermined. Certainly, people could do those things if they desired, but since it would have no impact on salvation, then people could again choose not to do those things.

The Greek word for "Continues" here means to "Practice" - "9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (NAS Version)....

I know how important it is for Christians to feel as if they have "full control" over their own salvation but that's contradictory to Christ's work on the Cross - as "No one is saved by works, lest any man should boast"...

No one has said that they earned their salvation. All we have said is that we accept the gift of salvation. That is not the same thing.

Additionally, the only way someone can come to the realization that their a sinner is to have the spirit convict them of their sins (or expose them to their own sin) - so, ultimately, it's up to God's Spirit to "speak to people" - giving them knowledge of their sins...

The Bible clearly teaches us in Romans that "We are all born Sinners" - and that the only thing we know how to do is "Sin" - "Through one man (Adam), sin entered the world, and through one man (Jesus) we have a way out of that sin"..

However, because we're born into the Sin condition - our hearts are already preconceived to darkness... we have no way of knowing we're in Sin until the Spirit shows us through conviction...

Not arguing with you at all there. But there are people who harden their hearts against the Spirit's calling, again showing that people ultimately have to choose whether they want to accept salvation.
 
-Cp said:
Where does it say in there that they could've "Easily chose not too"?

You guys are soo good at ignoring BLATANT scripture - which I've laid out before you in order to somehow "prove your point"...

There's a way to study the Bible called Hermeneutics - which states you let scripture interpet scripture and also "that which is overtly clear always covers that which is not so clear in understanding"....

There are many, many references in the Bible that discuss the people who turned their back on God; and the punishment they received.

Those who "chose" not to follow Him, were punished.
 
gop_jeff said:
My point in asking that question is that there would be no need for a confession of faith, baptism, good deeds, etc. etc. if our salvation is predetermined. Certainly, people could do those things if they desired, but since it would have no impact on salvation, then people could again choose not to do those things.

Well. you're partially right.. there is no <i>need</i> for those things the only thing "needed" for salvation is "belief in Christ"... John 3.16 "Whosoever believes in him will NOT perish, but have everlasting life".... The other things you mentioned, baptism, confession, good deeds etc... are all nice, but aren't required...


gop_jeff said:
Not arguing with you at all there. But there are people who harden their hearts against the Spirit's calling, again showing that people ultimately have to choose whether they want to accept salvation.

Really? Name one person who has.... all the examples - in the Bible - I can think of are where God Hardened their hearts...
 
GotZoom said:
There are many, many references in the Bible that discuss the people who turned their back on God; and the punishment they received.

Those who "chose" not to follow Him, were punished.


Bible verses please..... and try not to take them out of context... ..
 
-Cp said:
Well. you're partially right.. there is no <i>need</i> for those things the only thing "needed" for salvation is "belief in Christ"... John 3.16 "Whosoever believes in him will NOT perish, but have everlasting life".... The other things you mentioned, baptism, confession, good deeds etc... are all nice, but aren't required...

I'm confused how I could unwillfully believe in God. I don't want to believe in God, but I suppose I'm just forced to, by Him, eh?

(shrug).

Do you attend that LDS church on 176th, Duane? ;)
 
-=d=- said:
I'm confused how I could unwillfully believe in God. I don't want to believe in God, but I suppose I'm just forced to, by Him, eh?

(shrug).

Do you attend that LDS church on 176th, Duane? ;)


Huh? What?
 
-Cp said:
Bible verses please..... and try not to take them out of context... ..

I"m not that hip when it comes to Chapter and verse. Off the top of my head, I can mention Saddom and Gamorrah..
 
GotZoom said:
I"m not that hip when it comes to Chapter and verse. Off the top of my head, I can mention Saddom and Gamorrah..

Kind of difficult to support your case w/o scripture isn't it? :D

I can mention those two cities as well - what about em'?
 
Well, for what it's worth, here is one passage on people hardening their hearts against God/the Spirit

Psalm 95:8 (excerpt)

6 Come, let us bow down in worship,
let us kneel before the LORD our Maker;

7 for he is our God
and we are the people of his pasture,
the flock under his care.
Today, if only you would hear his voice,

8 "Do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah, [a]
as you did that day at Massah in the wilderness,

9 where your ancestors tested me;
they tried me, though they had seen what I did.

10 For forty years I was angry with that generation;
I said, 'They are a people whose hearts go astray,
and they have not known my ways.'

11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.'"

Footnotes:
[a] Meribah=quarreling
Massah=Testing


Study guide explanation:

Psalms 95:8

Harden not your hearts…
Against Christ, against his Gospel, against all the light and evidence of it. There is a natural hardness of the heart, owing to the corruption of nature; and an habitual hardness, acquired by a constant continuance and long custom in sinning; and there is a judicial hardness, which God gives men up unto. There is a hardness of heart, which sometimes attends God's own people, through the deceitfulness of sin gaining upon them; of which, when sensible, they complain, and do well to guard against. Respect seems to be had here to the hardness of heart in the Jews in the times of Christ and his apostles, which the Holy Ghost foresaw, and here dehorts from; who, notwithstanding the clear evidence of Jesus being the Messiah, from prophecy, from miracles, from doctrines, from the gifts of the Spirit… yet hardened their hearts against him, rebelled against light, and would not receive, but reject him:
 
Abbey Normal said:
Well, for what it's worth, here is one passage on people hardening their hearts against God/the Spirit

Psalm 95:8 (excerpt)

6 Come, let us bow down in worship,
let us kneel before the LORD our Maker;

7 for he is our God
and we are the people of his pasture,
the flock under his care.
Today, if only you would hear his voice,

8 "Do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah, [a]
as you did that day at Massah in the wilderness,

9 where your ancestors tested me;
they tried me, though they had seen what I did.

10 For forty years I was angry with that generation;
I said, 'They are a people whose hearts go astray,
and they have not known my ways.'

11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.'"

Footnotes:
[a] Meribah=quarreling
Massah=Testing


Study guide explanation:

Psalms 95:8

Harden not your hearts…
Against Christ, against his Gospel, against all the light and evidence of it. There is a natural hardness of the heart, owing to the corruption of nature; and an habitual hardness, acquired by a constant continuance and long custom in sinning; and there is a judicial hardness, which God gives men up unto. There is a hardness of heart, which sometimes attends God's own people, through the deceitfulness of sin gaining upon them; of which, when sensible, they complain, and do well to guard against. Respect seems to be had here to the hardness of heart in the Jews in the times of Christ and his apostles, which the Holy Ghost foresaw, and here dehorts from; who, notwithstanding the clear evidence of Jesus being the Messiah, from prophecy, from miracles, from doctrines, from the gifts of the Spirit… yet hardened their hearts against him, rebelled against light, and would not receive, but reject him:


Kind of interesting ya'll keep quoting OLD TESTAMENT versus which don't relate to Salvation - which, of course, didn't take place until Christ's death and resurrection...
 
-Cp said:
God does what he wants, when He wants, look at Saul who became Paul. God changed him, Paul didn't have much of a choice. Judas was chosen and the list goes on.

Of course Saul had the choice...Saul wasn't FORCED to go and seek out that other dude....Saul OBEYED Jesus by going into that one city and looking for homie. BIG difference.

Jonah had a CHOICE....He chose to RUN, and then he chose SUICIDE to save the lives of those aboard his ship. God had MERCY and sent the Freakin' HUGE fish to save Jonah's life.

The whale spat him up, and Jonah OBEYED God.
I content one cannot "obey" where there is forced behaviour. Semantics are important in this case.
 
-Cp said:
Kind of difficult to support your case w/o scripture isn't it? :D

I can mention those two cities as well - what about em'?

Now you are just being an idiot. The people of S&G turned their back on God. He took care of the situation.

Excuse me for not Googling the subject; I assumed you knew the story.

I do not have to know Chapter and Verse to have an intelligent conversation about the Bible.

Just as I don't have to know every bone in the leg to be able to discuss a broken leg.

The birth date of every past president to speak about politics.

Get my drift?
 
-=d=- said:
Of course Saul had the choice...Saul wasn't FORCED to go and seek out that other dude....Saul OBEYED Jesus by going into that one city and looking for homie. BIG difference.

Jonah had a CHOICE....He chose to RUN, and then he chose SUICIDE to save the lives of those aboard his ship. God had MERCY and sent the Freakin' HUGE fish to save Jonah's life.

The whale spat him up, and Jonah OBEYED God.
I content one cannot "obey" where there is forced behaviour. Semantics are important in this case.

Lots of assumptions... here...
 
GotZoom said:
Now you are just being an idiot. The people of S&G turned their back on God. He took care of the situation.

Excuse me for not Googling the subject; I assumed you knew the story.

I do not have to know Chapter and Verse to have an intelligent conversation about the Bible.

Just as I don't have to know every bone in the leg to be able to discuss a broken leg.

The birth date of every past president to speak about politics.

Get my drift?


Umm.. when it comes to talking biblical doctrine, it's a good idea to have scripture to back up what you're talking about - otherwise, it's hard for the people you're debating to take you seriously..

Thanks for the name-calling btw...
 
-Cp said:
Umm.. when it comes to talking biblical doctrine, it's a good idea to have scripture to back up what you're talking about - otherwise, it's hard for the people you're debating to take you seriously..

Thanks for the name-calling btw...

I didn't say you were an idiot..I said you were being one.

So..you never heard the story of S&G until I mentioned it?
 
GotZoom said:
I didn't say you were an idiot..I said you were being one.

So..you never heard the story of S&G until I mentioned it?


Of course I know about the Biblical account of S&G - but what's that have to do w/ the topic?
 

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