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What's funny though is that the more you repeat a lie, the more people tend to believe it. There was no reported widespread spitting on Vietnam Vets and those that keep pretending there was are really only trying to divide the country while using Vets as a tool.I'm not sitting on the fence here, I promise!
Any urban myth (assuming this "spitting on returning military personnel") I think (cos I can't prove it) has a germ of truth to it. It is entirely possible that in the United States in the aftermath of the Vietnam War someone spat on a returned military person, probably hurling the epithet "babykiller!". I don't see how anyone can prove that happened and I don't see how it can be proven not to have happened. If you ever work out how to prove a negative, contact me, I'll manage your publicity for a small fee.
I didn't see it here in Australia. But there's a lot of stuff I miss on a daily basis, I have to admit, so it could have happened. I can tell you what I saw at various anti-war demonstrations though and at least in my experience there was no spitting. There was a heap of chanting, flag-waving, swearing, laughing, joking (at one demo I saw an old school chum of mine and we had a good talk in no-man's land between the demonstrators and the cops, when I got back in line my Sergeant reamed me out for "fraternising" - for fux sake.
Anyway, I did see during some of the demos some (obviously) military personnel (those of you who were actually around back then remember that young men had long hair and if you had short back and sides you were in the military or a copper or very, very square) hopping in and trying to go the biff with some of the demonstrators. The coppers on the occasion I'm remembering stopped the soldiers before any damage was done and told them to piss off, which they did. No-one was hurt although there was much invective tossed around on all sides. But no spitting - from anyone. But in that crowd of thousands of people it's entirely possible that someone, somewhere, spat on someone else.
The point is, if it happened, what do you think about it?
I wouldn't have spit* on a returning military person even though I was opposed to the war in Vietnam. The way I see it, the poor bastards had no choice but to go, either that or do several years in the stockade (interestingly those who refused to be conscripted when they were notified were locked up in military prisons after being court-martialled. Why would I blame them? I would have preferred to piss down the leg of the bastard Prime Minister who involved us in that war but that wouldn't happen either of course, I might be cranky but I'm not nuts.
Anyway, if it happened to anyone it shouldn't have happened and if someone got biffed for doing it then they got what they deserved. If it didn't happen then that's good because no-one is actually carrying the memory of being spat on on their return from a war.
*The spit/spat thing is a real pain to work out.
What's funny though is that the more you repeat a lie, the more people tend to believe it. There was no reported widespread spitting on Vietnam Vets and those that keep pretending there was are really only trying to divide the country while using Vets as a tool.I'm not sitting on the fence here, I promise!
Any urban myth (assuming this "spitting on returning military personnel") I think (cos I can't prove it) has a germ of truth to it. It is entirely possible that in the United States in the aftermath of the Vietnam War someone spat on a returned military person, probably hurling the epithet "babykiller!". I don't see how anyone can prove that happened and I don't see how it can be proven not to have happened. If you ever work out how to prove a negative, contact me, I'll manage your publicity for a small fee.
I didn't see it here in Australia. But there's a lot of stuff I miss on a daily basis, I have to admit, so it could have happened. I can tell you what I saw at various anti-war demonstrations though and at least in my experience there was no spitting. There was a heap of chanting, flag-waving, swearing, laughing, joking (at one demo I saw an old school chum of mine and we had a good talk in no-man's land between the demonstrators and the cops, when I got back in line my Sergeant reamed me out for "fraternising" - for fux sake.
Anyway, I did see during some of the demos some (obviously) military personnel (those of you who were actually around back then remember that young men had long hair and if you had short back and sides you were in the military or a copper or very, very square) hopping in and trying to go the biff with some of the demonstrators. The coppers on the occasion I'm remembering stopped the soldiers before any damage was done and told them to piss off, which they did. No-one was hurt although there was much invective tossed around on all sides. But no spitting - from anyone. But in that crowd of thousands of people it's entirely possible that someone, somewhere, spat on someone else.
The point is, if it happened, what do you think about it?
I wouldn't have spit* on a returning military person even though I was opposed to the war in Vietnam. The way I see it, the poor bastards had no choice but to go, either that or do several years in the stockade (interestingly those who refused to be conscripted when they were notified were locked up in military prisons after being court-martialled. Why would I blame them? I would have preferred to piss down the leg of the bastard Prime Minister who involved us in that war but that wouldn't happen either of course, I might be cranky but I'm not nuts.
Anyway, if it happened to anyone it shouldn't have happened and if someone got biffed for doing it then they got what they deserved. If it didn't happen then that's good because no-one is actually carrying the memory of being spat on on their return from a war.
*The spit/spat thing is a real pain to work out.
That's fucked, imo.
What's funny though is that the more you repeat a lie, the more people tend to believe it. There was no reported widespread spitting on Vietnam Vets and those that keep pretending there was are really only trying to divide the country while using Vets as a tool.I'm not sitting on the fence here, I promise!
Any urban myth (assuming this "spitting on returning military personnel") I think (cos I can't prove it) has a germ of truth to it. It is entirely possible that in the United States in the aftermath of the Vietnam War someone spat on a returned military person, probably hurling the epithet "babykiller!". I don't see how anyone can prove that happened and I don't see how it can be proven not to have happened. If you ever work out how to prove a negative, contact me, I'll manage your publicity for a small fee.
I didn't see it here in Australia. But there's a lot of stuff I miss on a daily basis, I have to admit, so it could have happened. I can tell you what I saw at various anti-war demonstrations though and at least in my experience there was no spitting. There was a heap of chanting, flag-waving, swearing, laughing, joking (at one demo I saw an old school chum of mine and we had a good talk in no-man's land between the demonstrators and the cops, when I got back in line my Sergeant reamed me out for "fraternising" - for fux sake.
Anyway, I did see during some of the demos some (obviously) military personnel (those of you who were actually around back then remember that young men had long hair and if you had short back and sides you were in the military or a copper or very, very square) hopping in and trying to go the biff with some of the demonstrators. The coppers on the occasion I'm remembering stopped the soldiers before any damage was done and told them to piss off, which they did. No-one was hurt although there was much invective tossed around on all sides. But no spitting - from anyone. But in that crowd of thousands of people it's entirely possible that someone, somewhere, spat on someone else.
The point is, if it happened, what do you think about it?
I wouldn't have spit* on a returning military person even though I was opposed to the war in Vietnam. The way I see it, the poor bastards had no choice but to go, either that or do several years in the stockade (interestingly those who refused to be conscripted when they were notified were locked up in military prisons after being court-martialled. Why would I blame them? I would have preferred to piss down the leg of the bastard Prime Minister who involved us in that war but that wouldn't happen either of course, I might be cranky but I'm not nuts.
Anyway, if it happened to anyone it shouldn't have happened and if someone got biffed for doing it then they got what they deserved. If it didn't happen then that's good because no-one is actually carrying the memory of being spat on on their return from a war.
*The spit/spat thing is a real pain to work out.
That's fucked, imo.
It's sadly the truth, I was there.
And now a whole town is going for a do-over because they know the same thing.
But what i think is pretty sad is a person cant even take the space to thank the Vets without all you libs and even non-libs having melt downs and derailing the thread trying to claim it never happened. I got no clue why.
What's funny though is that the more you repeat a lie, the more people tend to believe it. There was no reported widespread spitting on Vietnam Vets and those that keep pretending there was are really only trying to divide the country while using Vets as a tool.
That's fucked, imo.
It's sadly the truth, I was there.
And now a whole town is going for a do-over because they know the same thing.
But what i think is pretty sad is a person cant even take the space to thank the Vets without all you libs and even non-libs having melt downs and derailing the thread trying to claim it never happened. I got no clue why.
because reality is an amazing concept.
In the fall of 1968, as I stopped at a traffic light on my walk to class across the campus of the University of Denver a man walked up to me and said, Hi.
Without waiting for my reply to his greeting, he pointed to the hook sticking out of my left sleeve. Got that in Vietnam?
I said, Yah, up near Tam Ky in I Corps.
Serves you right.
The Killing Zone by Fredrick Downs Jr, who received four purple hearts, a Bronze Star with valor and a Silver Star.
Amazon.com: The Killing Zone: My Life in the Vietnam War (9780393310894): Frederick Downs Jr.: Books
We pulled up in the Army school bus to the front of the Seattle Airport. It was now a little after ten PM. My ticket was sweaty in my hand, I had two hours to wait, and Id be on my way home. Then as the door opened, the bus driver calmly announced, be prepared, hostile-fire.
What?
The door opened and we could hear chanting of some sort off in the distance. Everyone jumped up and grabbed their duffel bag, now waiting for those ahead of us to move out. The shuffling began as one by one the fifty odd service men made it off the bus into the damp evening air. We all sauntered now toward the door as I could make out a ruckus up ahead at the main doorway. The line slowed slightly. I could make out a group of a dozen demonstrators.
It was not until I got closer that the anti-war slogans became clear. I had seen these groups on TV before I left, I had read about it while I was gone. Now here they were in front of us, they seemed older than I remembered. I watched a group of middle age women violently screaming and yelling at the soldiers ahead. I could see the hate in their eyes. God, what in the hell was going on, ever since landing in the states this has been a nightmare?
Then something wet splattered on the side of my face, then again something hit my chest. I wiped my face with my hand and realized it was a raw egg, and then I saw Franklin in front of me splattered in blood and something like guts, chicken guts? What the hell? I turned to see this screaming group of fanatics for the first time. As we flew north, I was able to stare out the windows as the sun rose from the East. My flight from Seattle ...It was changing too fast. I was sure I had left the insanity back in Vietnam, that is what I wanted so very much.
Whispering Death
By Robert Curry
With all kinds of introductions from the Officers there with him.
Amazon.com: Whispering Death "Tuag Nco Ntsoov": ...Our Journey with the Hmong in the Secret War for Laos . . . Lub caij peb thiab Hmoob koom tes ua ntsug rog ntsiag to nyob Los Tsuas teb (9780595318094): Robert Curry: Books
Just two days ago...how odd a whole town remembers and apologizes
[edited]
Fort Campbell welcomes home Vietnam vets
By KRISTIN M. HALL, AP
Sun Aug 16, 8:08 PM EDT
FORT CAMPBELL, Ky. Tears filled the eyes of some Vietnam veterans who were warmly greeted with cheers from their family and friends Sunday in an re-enactment of their original return from the war, when they were often met with angry demonstrators and harsh headlines.
The ceremony was a first for the 101st Airborne Division and the Army, said Maj. Patrick Seiber, an Army spokesman based at Fort Campbell in Kentucky.
"Our hope is that other units and other posts will follow our lead in having this type of ceremony," he said.
Mickey Leighton, a 72-year-old Army veteran from Naples, Fla., said listening to the applause and praise from the community was very emotional.
Leighton, who started his military career at Fort Campbell in 1956, served two tours in Vietnam including the Tet Offensive. He returned in 1972 in the midst of angry anti-war protests that often placed blame on the individual soldiers.
"We were treated very shabbily," he said. "In some cases they would throw eggs at us, they would throw empty beer bottles at us and they would call us baby-killers."
He said many soldiers would immediately change clothes because they didn't want to wear their uniforms in public in the late 1960s and early '70s while traveling home after returning from war.
"Never in the history of the military have I known of any division or any military installation providing a specific welcome home for Vietnam veterans," Leighton said. "This is very touching."
In contrast, Fort Campbell soldiers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan are welcomed back with a ceremony after every deployment, with many completing three or four tours since the wars began.
Army leaders and the community around Fort Campbell collaborated for the Vietnam ceremony, Seiber said. The 101st Airborne Division Association, a group for former soldiers from the division, helped to organize and get the word out.
"I can't think of a better community to do this in than the Fort Campbell community," Seiber said.
Fort Campbell welcomes home Vietnam vets | Comcast.net
Diuretic, did you miss this post?
Apparently America remembers
True enough, though the Korean Vets also didn't get much recognition...because Korea wasn't a "real" war like WW2. Notice that they got their monument in DC years after the Vietnam Vets got theirs.Just two days ago...how odd a whole town remembers and apologizes
[edited]
Fort Campbell welcomes home Vietnam vets
By KRISTIN M. HALL, AP
Sun Aug 16, 8:08 PM EDT
FORT CAMPBELL, Ky. Tears filled the eyes of some Vietnam veterans who were warmly greeted with cheers from their family and friends Sunday in an re-enactment of their original return from the war, when they were often met with angry demonstrators and harsh headlines.
The ceremony was a first for the 101st Airborne Division and the Army, said Maj. Patrick Seiber, an Army spokesman based at Fort Campbell in Kentucky.
"Our hope is that other units and other posts will follow our lead in having this type of ceremony," he said.
Mickey Leighton, a 72-year-old Army veteran from Naples, Fla., said listening to the applause and praise from the community was very emotional.
Leighton, who started his military career at Fort Campbell in 1956, served two tours in Vietnam including the Tet Offensive. He returned in 1972 in the midst of angry anti-war protests that often placed blame on the individual soldiers.
"We were treated very shabbily," he said. "In some cases they would throw eggs at us, they would throw empty beer bottles at us and they would call us baby-killers."
He said many soldiers would immediately change clothes because they didn't want to wear their uniforms in public in the late 1960s and early '70s while traveling home after returning from war.
"Never in the history of the military have I known of any division or any military installation providing a specific welcome home for Vietnam veterans," Leighton said. "This is very touching."
In contrast, Fort Campbell soldiers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan are welcomed back with a ceremony after every deployment, with many completing three or four tours since the wars began.
Army leaders and the community around Fort Campbell collaborated for the Vietnam ceremony, Seiber said. The 101st Airborne Division Association, a group for former soldiers from the division, helped to organize and get the word out.
"I can't think of a better community to do this in than the Fort Campbell community," Seiber said.
Fort Campbell welcomes home Vietnam vets | Comcast.net
Diuretic, did you miss this post?
Apparently America remembers
JenT actually makes a good point with her post. The soldiers came home to nothing. They were just issued their release and sent on their way. By allowing soldiers to return one at a time, the Army robbed them of a chance to be formally recognized for their service. Local communities also had that opportunity and passed.
My grandfather was a WWII Vet and VFW member. I remember how he and his friends spoke about the Viet Nam vets. They didn't stop them from joining the VFW, but did not encourage it. Viet Vets were looked at as a lower class of veteran than the guys in WWII and Korea. They were long haired, had facial hair, wore torn fatigues with patches on them. VFW made very little effort to honor returning vets
please provide links to all these stories about americans spitting on and throwing blood on vietnam vets...cause most of that is simply bullshit....i welcomed home a soldier from two tours....and he is not the only one.....my friends did tours etc...i never remember anyone spitting or saying anything to them....this is one of the vietnam myths....please provide proof of what you have posted...
do you feel this way about vets from the uss liberty? they were called liars etc...do you speak up for them too?
By early April, stories were circulating in several US cities about uniformed military personnel being spat on or otherwise mistreated. In Asheville, North Carolina, two Marines were rumored to have been spat upon, while in Spokane, Washington, a threat to "spit on the troops when they return from Iraq" was reportedly issued. In Burlington, Vermont, a leader of the state National Guard told local television, "We've had some spitting incidents," and then claimed one of his Guardswomen had been stoned by anti-war teenagers.
Upon further investigation, none of the stories panned out the Spokane "threat" stemmed from the misreading of a letter in the local paper promising that opponents of the war would not spit on returning soldiers and yet, in each case the rumors were used to stoke pro-war rallies.
Vietnam Veterans Against the War: THE VETERAN: Spitting on the Troops: Old Myth, New Rumors
I can only speak to the people I knew (relatives and their friends) who didn't experience anything of the sort.Using the above figures, if 4mm served during the Vietnam Era and 6% of them were treated poorly over a 8-year period, then that is averaged out at 2,500 incidents per month, about eighty per day.
Say ten percent of those were for spitting, etc., then averages to eight per day, fifty-six per week, 224 per month, and about 2,500 each year for eight years.
So, yes, 'something' happened, and it happened to many service people.
I remember the VFW WWII and KW vets looking down on the VWer vets as somehow not as quality.
And yet...no newspaper accounts or arrest records, no pictures from Jen, and Jake too chicken to explain his experience.
Just two days ago...how odd a whole town remembers and apologizes
[edited]
Fort Campbell welcomes home Vietnam vets
By KRISTIN M. HALL, AP
Sun Aug 16, 8:08 PM EDT
FORT CAMPBELL, Ky. Tears filled the eyes of some Vietnam veterans who were warmly greeted with cheers from their family and friends Sunday in an re-enactment of their original return from the war, when they were often met with angry demonstrators and harsh headlines.
The ceremony was a first for the 101st Airborne Division and the Army, said Maj. Patrick Seiber, an Army spokesman based at Fort Campbell in Kentucky.
"Our hope is that other units and other posts will follow our lead in having this type of ceremony," he said.
Mickey Leighton, a 72-year-old Army veteran from Naples, Fla., said listening to the applause and praise from the community was very emotional.
Leighton, who started his military career at Fort Campbell in 1956, served two tours in Vietnam including the Tet Offensive. He returned in 1972 in the midst of angry anti-war protests that often placed blame on the individual soldiers.
"We were treated very shabbily," he said. "In some cases they would throw eggs at us, they would throw empty beer bottles at us and they would call us baby-killers."
He said many soldiers would immediately change clothes because they didn't want to wear their uniforms in public in the late 1960s and early '70s while traveling home after returning from war.
"Never in the history of the military have I known of any division or any military installation providing a specific welcome home for Vietnam veterans," Leighton said. "This is very touching."
In contrast, Fort Campbell soldiers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan are welcomed back with a ceremony after every deployment, with many completing three or four tours since the wars began.
Army leaders and the community around Fort Campbell collaborated for the Vietnam ceremony, Seiber said. The 101st Airborne Division Association, a group for former soldiers from the division, helped to organize and get the word out.
"I can't think of a better community to do this in than the Fort Campbell community," Seiber said.
Fort Campbell welcomes home Vietnam vets | Comcast.net
Diuretic, did you miss this post?
Apparently America remembers
JenT actually makes a good point with her post. The soldiers came home to nothing. They were just issued their release and sent on their way. By allowing soldiers to return one at a time, the Army robbed them of a chance to be formally recognized for their service. Local communities also had that opportunity and passed.
My grandfather was a WWII Vet and VFW member. I remember how he and his friends spoke about the Viet Nam vets.
They didn't stop them from joining the VFW, but did not encourage it.
Viet Vets were looked at as a lower class of veteran than the guys in WWII and Korea. They were long haired, had facial hair, wore torn fatigues with patches on them. VFW made very little effort to honor returning vets
I can only speak to the people I knew (relatives and their friends) who didn't experience anything of the sort.Using the above figures, if 4mm served during the Vietnam Era and 6% of them were treated poorly over a 8-year period, then that is averaged out at 2,500 incidents per month, about eighty per day.
Say ten percent of those were for spitting, etc., then averages to eight per day, fifty-six per week, 224 per month, and about 2,500 each year for eight years.
So, yes, 'something' happened, and it happened to many service people.
I remember the VFW WWII and KW vets looking down on the VWer vets as somehow not as quality.
... I'd have to count them up. I have a big family and all the men on my dad's side served in the military; only a few on my mom's side didn't (and I'm not just talking about Vietnam but served in general). Many of those who did were career.
But as far as those who were in Vietnam... My father in law; both of my father's brothers; a number of his younger cousins; 5 of my mom's 7 brothers (the older two had served prior to Vietnam); cousins (children of the 2 oldest); a number of my Mom's cousins. And then their friends who served with them (they frequently brought them home on leave and such). Not a one experienced a negative homecoming. I know that a number of them didn't experience a big welcome home either (like what I saw with my brother in both Iraq wars), just neutral, I'd say.
This is unfreaking believable.
First they go over there to fight for the freedom of the world, are thrown into hideous conditions, are shot at, go through all kinds of hell, the ones who survive finally get to come home, many wounded for the rest of their lives. Whether they are actually the ones that got physically spit on or not is not the issue, they were disparaged after going through hell for us in many different ways, which is shameful in and of itself, something many of us came to believe was wrong and regretted.
Then there are celebrations for our men of Iraq coming home and everyone (I believe) is ultra careful not to make that mistake again and the parties are a little brighter in memory of the Vietnam Vets, but how would they know that. So they watch, remembering the shameful sentiment of the past, the welcome homes of todays men, and I don't care how tough you are that has to hurt.
And I know that many in Iraq were worried they would come home and be treated as the Vietnam vets were, another spur on America's response in the 70s.
So I apologize specifically and say thank you. Nobody had to enter the thread, nobody had to make a big deal about it. It was just some font in one of a thousand threads. But you couldn't let it happen. We had to have almost 200 posts fighting about if anything happened, probably digging up ugly memories that never should have been dug up.
And now Emma, you pile on and want to see the actual spitting too. Does it matter if it was spitting or eggs or chicken blood or a scowl, Emma, after the hell they went through to come home to even a scowl instead of appreciation can be just as unbelievably offensive. Questions are asked about how they should have reacted. I would imagine they were so shocked, and after DODGING BULLETS for how many years, you think they really fell apart over spit? To think of what happened to them and then have America insult them when they arrived home, that was insult to injury, and not worthy of response.
You guys are sick, and I apologize to every vet who came by this thread. If even one man or woman who went through that hell has relived some of the anger and hurt that happened years ago, I am so sorry. And ashamed of that fraction of America that has the audacity to accuse people they have no clue what they've been through of not being honest on top of everything else.
Every vet I have ever met has not wanted to talk about nam. They don't complain, they don't ask for sympathy, they just shoulder the burdens and carry on. Now I understand a little better why. And I am sorry I ever brought it up on THIS venue. Because the majority of America seriously does not agree with these ...people.
God bless you Vietnam Vets.
