For Vietnam Vets, an apology and thanks

[JakeStarkey]

rightwinger, you are goofy. My story has never changed, but your agenda keeps growing and expanding as does a dog's puddle on the ground, always smelling poorly and drawing the looks of others toward an ill-mannered dog.

Quit wagging your tail, cover your mess, and go take care of some homeless vets at the shelter this weekend. Some of the guys at the 'shop were wondering if some of you were just wannabees. That may be you.

Anyway, if you continue to stand there, stare and whine and puddle all you want, none of that changes the history.

A typical baseless response from a moron. Provide me proof that Vets were spat at as they returned. Refute anything I said. You could not even provide details of your own alleged "incident"

You have been told by several here the truth of the matter, and of their own involvment in the matter. Plenty of solid evidence exists in the history. Obviously you have done no study.

 

[JakeStarkey]

i love the replying with you tube videos....seems jent has ran out of bullshit and hot air...

But she has a much cuter nose.

 

[strollingbones]

lol true that.....

 

[Ralph]

There are many myths generated about this conflict....the most egregious rumor was that involving the US Military and how it LOST THE CONFLICT. Do you actually know how many engagements the US Military lost while engaged in this action? Zip, none, zero.....The US won every battle engaged, what was lacking was the management to take advantage of these sacrifices that cost us so dearly, over 50 thousand US life's lost and following the abandonment of our so called Allies.......over 1 million lives where lost to the communist of that region because of the inability of the politicians of this nation to properly manage the responsibilities they had self engaged.

Is it no wonder the world lost respect for the United States? Our word means nothing, our promises are empty air. The native Americans had these peoples judged correctly from the start........they will promise you anything to gain what they want. And now we have the greatest WINDBAG in history attempting to sell us another bill of goods, he will do anything, say anything to have his name go down in history as the "ONE" that brought socialized medicine to the United States, he is simply a 'glory hound'.

 

[rightwinger]

Reinforcing his myth hypothesis, Lembcke cites a Harris poll reported to Congress in 1972 that indicates 93% of returning veterans found their homecoming friendly, while only 3% found it unfriendly. The poll also reported that over 75% of returning vets were opposed to the war.

 

[rightwinger]

http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=215

In 1998 sociologist and Vietnam veteran Jerry Lembcke published "The Spitting Image: Myth, Media and the Legacy of Viet Nam." He recounts a study of 495 news stories on returning veterans published from 1965 to 1971. That study shows only a handful (32) of instances were presented as in any way antagonistic to the soldiers. There were no instances of spitting on soldiers; what spitting was reported was done by citizens expressing displeasure with protesters.

Opinion polls of the time show no animosity between soldiers and opponents of the war. Only 3 percent of returning soldiers recounted any unfriendly experiences upon their return.

There is also a common-sense method for debunking this urban legend. One frequent test is the story's plausibility: how likely is it that the incident could have happened as described? Do we really believe that a "dirty hippie" would spit upon a fit and trained soldier? If such a confrontation had occurred, would that combat-hardened soldier have just ignored the insult? Would there not be pictures, arrest reports, a trial record or a coroner's report after such an event? Years of research have produced no such records

 

[editec]

Vietnam Veterans Against the War: THE VETERAN: Debunking A Myth

In 1998 sociologist and Vietnam veteran Jerry Lembcke published "The Spitting Image: Myth, Media and the Legacy of Viet Nam." He recounts a study of 495 news stories on returning veterans published from 1965 to 1971. That study shows only a handful (32) of instances were presented as in any way antagonistic to the soldiers. There were no instances of spitting on soldiers; what spitting was reported was done by citizens expressing displeasure with protesters.

Opinion polls of the time show no animosity between soldiers and opponents of the war. Only 3 percent of returning soldiers recounted any unfriendly experiences upon their return.

There is also a common-sense method for debunking this urban legend. One frequent test is the story's plausibility: how likely is it that the incident could have happened as described? Do we really believe that a "dirty hippie" would spit upon a fit and trained soldier? If such a confrontation had occurred, would that combat-hardened soldier have just ignored the insult? Would there not be pictures, arrest reports, a trial record or a coroner's report after such an event? Years of research have produced no such records

There you go, RWer.

Stomping on two of this nations most cherished myths.

the first being the "dirty hippie" myth.

the second being all those spitting incidents where men in uniform endured being spit on by dirty hippies.

Anybody who understands anything about the human nature of mature males in uniform can see though such specious nonsense.

But as most of the armchair veterans on this board are completely and utterly fuill of shit, they insult Viet Nam veterans, first by pretending that they are those vets, and then by insinuating that we were passive pussies who would have tolerated such an insult.

It's the kind of lie that only a truly clueless right wing fucking punk could believe.

 

[JakeStarkey]

OK, here is some background on Dr. Lemcke. Dr. Robert Turner wrote on the of the first fine books on Vietnamese communism and is a co-founder at the University of Virginia School of Law of the Center for National Security law. He and his brothers were vets and went through a scene similar to those that JenT and I described.

And then the interviewer of Turner below asks about Lemcke, who turns out is a leftist radical, which in turn outs rightwinger as a leftwing plant. Here we go:

TURNER: And a lot of people had that experience coming back. You know, people talk about - I saw one story in the press that nobody ever got spit on and so forth, but I can remember chasing one person down the hall in the airport in Los Angeles when I went down - I was out of the service, but my Marine Corps brother who had also done two tours in Vietnam came to meet me in his uniform, and a hippy type, whatever you want to call him, started, you know, calling him names, knowing that if he had responded he would get court-martialed, and - but I wasn't in the service and so I told the guy, I said, "You know, he can't do anything, but nothing keeps me from kicking your butt." I didn't want to hurt him. I just wanted to chase him down the hall, and I guess I had about 100 pounds on him, so he decided he'd better beat feet. But, you know, there was a lot of abuse like that, and -
SWETT: Dr. Turner, I actually looked into that a little bit. It seems that the source of the claim that the spitting incidents were urban legend is a guy named Jerry Lemke, who wrote an essay later expanded into a book called, "Spitting Image." He's a sociologist and, fascinatingly enough, a former member of the VVAW.

TURNER: Yeah.

SWETT: He also appeared at a conference that was intended to celebrate, I think, one of the anniversaries of the Communist Manifesto and so forth.

So my conclusion was perhaps he wasn't looking too hard for spitting incidents[/I].

So, rightwinger, you are a commie? You support the folks that were shootin' at our soldiers and airmen and marines and sailors? That is so wrong. And that makes 'sbones your Red Rosa.

Loozers. All can read further for themselves at To Set the Record Straight - Interview with Dr. Robert Turner, February 14, 2005 and do some research on JL. Rightwing, you are a loozer.

 

[editec]

OK, here is some background on Dr. Lemcke. Dr. Robert Turner wrote on the of the first fine books on Vietnamese communism and is a co-founder at the University of Virginia School of Law of the Center for National Security law. He and his brothers were vets and went through a scene similar to those that JenT and I described.

And then the interviewer of Turner below asks about Lemcke, who turns out is a leftist radical, which in turn outs rightwinger as a leftwing plant. Here we go:

TURNER: And a lot of people had that experience coming back. You know, people talk about - I saw one story in the press that nobody ever got spit on and so forth, but I can remember chasing one person down the hall in the airport in Los Angeles when I went down - I was out of the service, but my Marine Corps brother who had also done two tours in Vietnam came to meet me in his uniform, and a hippy type, whatever you want to call him, started, you know, calling him names, knowing that if he had responded he would get court-martialed, and - but I wasn't in the service and so I told the guy, I said, "You know, he can't do anything, but nothing keeps me from kicking your butt." I didn't want to hurt him. I just wanted to chase him down the hall, and I guess I had about 100 pounds on him, so he decided he'd better beat feet. But, you know, there was a lot of abuse like that, and -
SWETT: Dr. Turner, I actually looked into that a little bit. It seems that the source of the claim that the spitting incidents were urban legend is a guy named Jerry Lemke, who wrote an essay later expanded into a book called, "Spitting Image." He's a sociologist and, fascinatingly enough, a former member of the VVAW.

TURNER: Yeah.

SWETT: He also appeared at a conference that was intended to celebrate, I think, one of the anniversaries of the Communist Manifesto and so forth.

So my conclusion was perhaps he wasn't looking too hard for spitting incidents[/i].

So, rightwinger, you are a commie? You support the folks that were shootin' at our soldiers and airmen and marines and sailors? That is so wrong. And that makes 'sbones your Red Rosa.

Loozers. All can read further for themselves at To Set the Record Straight - Interview with Dr. Robert Turner, February 14, 2005 and do some research on JL. Rightwing, you are a loozer.

Reads like bullshit to me.

Specifically it reads like the sort of bullshit that somebody who never served might imagine is real, too

This for example, is utter and complete bullshit

knowing that if he had responded he would get court-martialed,

He would have , eh?

Not fucking likely.

See?

More speciaous nonsense from people PRETENDING to know what it is to be in uniform.

I get truly sick of you internet veteran heros, I truly do.

You honestly think that you can fake being veterans based on things you think you know about being in uniform you learned in the movies, don't you?

Fucking chickenhawking cowards.

 

[Ravi]

Even that unbelievable story had no example of spitting.

 

[del]

Even that unbelievable story had no example of spitting.

actually, the worst treatment i ever saw of a returning vet was when one that was standing next to me, in uniform, was beaten by the cambridge police in harvard sq.

and i do mean beaten. never saw anyone spit at one, although i did hear the babykiller epithet thrown more than once.

just goes to show, no matter where you go on the planet, you're likely never more than a couple of yards from a complete asshole.

The Harvard Crimson :: News :: Rioting Devastates Harvard Square; Windows Smashed, Scores Injured

 

[Ravi]

Even that unbelievable story had no example of spitting.

actually, the worst treatment i ever saw of a returning vet was when one that was standing next to me, in uniform, was beaten by the cambridge police in harvard sq.

and i do mean beaten. never saw anyone spit at one, although i did hear the babykiller epithet thrown more than once.

just goes to show, no matter where you go on the planet, you're likely never more than a couple of yards from a complete asshole.

The Harvard Crimson :: News :: Rioting Devastates Harvard Square; Windows Smashed, Scores Injured

Why did they beat him?

I can easily believe that the police and the National Guard were often spat at...spit at?

 

[noose4]

As our nation cheers and applauds the homecoming of our troops these days, I'd like to say out loud what I know is felt by many Americans...

We are so very sorry, Vietnam Vets.

Although today's troops deserve our grateful support, it's obvious that America is being especially careful not to repeat our shameful past of blaming our troops, to support them and welcome them home, regardless of what we feel about politics.

I believe that we often add an extra spoonful of gratitude today because of our guilt over our treatment of the Vietnam vets and their homecoming. And I have to wonder, as the Vietnam vets watch the parades over today's heroes, do they recognize that part of it is meant for them? Sadly, I don't think so.

I remember the days of the Vietnam war, and the pictures I saw of the spitting on our soldiers at their homecoming, blood throwing, the protests, anger and hostility. I was just a kid, I didn't know any vets, but I remember thinking the treatment was just as my thoughts went along with the crowd, and for that, with all my heart, dear Viet Nam vets, I apologize.

Your sacrifices are so very appreciated, the wounds you continue to carry physically and in your hearts and your minds, are not forgotten. Every time I realize I am talking with a Vietnam vet, I have such a desire to hug you with sincere gratitude, but I never do, because I am certain it would be misunderstood.

Vietnam vets don't like to talk about the war, or dwell upon it. It's rare that the identity is even disclosed, and once it is, that haunted look of steel comes over a Vietnam vet's face as memories flood their thoughts, and I know they want to drop the subject immediately.

So I stand there, searching for words to change the subject, wishing I could express my gratitude but not knowing how.

I believe much of America feels the same way. And when our troops come home from Iraq or Afghanistan or the Gulf, we clap a little louder, we cheer a little longer, and we throw larger parties.

But Vietnam Vets, please know that at the same time, so many of us are cheering you too. We gasp as the media reports our troops are worried they will be treated as you were. We are stabbed with guilt at the thought...and like most spoiled children, many of us quickly dismiss it, we don't like to admit guilt. So we exuberantly express it where we can, today, with our troops coming home, and hope that makes up for it. And it doesn't.

But make no mistake, we cheer for you too. And we grieve our past mistakes.

So as you watch the troops of today flooded with praise and glorious homecomings, and you feel a pang of hurt and anger as you remember your fallen friends, the horrors of war you went through, the sacrifices you made for us, to come home and be torn apart by us...all I can say is, please forgive us. I, for one, was an idiot. We all were. And we wish so much that we could find a way to express our gratitude. We can't undo the past, we can only ask for your forgiveness, I pray that you can.

I have looked for an organization to donate to, in expression of gratitude. The best I could find was Closer Walk Ministries, but how can they or any organization even attempt to undo the damage we have done, reach all Vietnam Vets and express our gratitude? America, I think we missed our chance.

You are heroes in my eyes. And when you hear the cheering of our troops today, please please know that many of us have you on our hearts, minds and prayers as well. God bless you. ~jen

From Patrick O'Hannigan: ~ This is a story about a Viet Nam vet and Ann Margaret as told by the vet's wife:

Richard, (my husband), never really talked a lot about his time in Viet Nam other than he had been shot by a sniper. However, he had a rather grainy, 8 x 10 black and white photo he had taken at a USO show of Ann Margaret with Bob Hope in the background that was one of his treasures.

A few years ago, Ann Margaret was doing a book signing at a local bookstore. Richard wanted to see if he could get her to sign the treasured photo so he
arrived at the bookstore at 12 o'clock for the 7:30 signing.

When I got there after work, the line went all the way around the bookstore, circled the parking lot and disappeared behind a parking garage. Before her appearance, bookstore employees announced that she would sign only her book and no memorabilia would be permitted.

Richard was disappointed, but wanted to show her the photo and let her know how much those shows meant to lonely GI's so far from home. Ann Margaret came out looking as beautiful as ever and, as second in line, it was soon Richard's turn.

He presented the book for her signature and then took out the photo. When he did, there were many shouts from the employees that she would not sign
it. Richard said, "I understand. I just wanted her to see it."

She took one look at the photo, tears welled up in her eyes and she said, "This is one of my gentlemen from Viet Nam and I most certainly will sign his photo. I know what these men did for their country and I always have time for 'my gentlemen.'"

With that, she pulled Richard across the table and planted a big kiss on him. She then made quite a to-do about the bravery of the young men she met
over the years, how much she admired them, and how much she appreciated them. There weren't too many dry eyes among those close enough to hear.
She then posed for pictures and acted as if he was the only one there.

Later at dinner, Richard was very quiet. When I asked if he'd like to talk about it, my big strong husband broke down in tears."That's the first time
anyone ever thanked me for my time in the Army," he said.

That night was a turning point for him. He walked a little straighter and, for the first time in years, was proud to have been a Vet. I'll never forget Ann Margaret for her graciousness and how much that small act of kindness meant to my husband.

I now make it a point to say "Thank you" to every person I come across who served in our Armed Forces. Freedom does not come cheap and I am grateful for all those who have served their country.

the vietnam vets got a raw deal but i was wondering do you have any copies of those pictures you saw of vietnam vets getting spit upon?
if you are looking for a place to make a donation there are plenty of great veterans charities.

 

[del]

Even that unbelievable story had no example of spitting.

actually, the worst treatment i ever saw of a returning vet was when one that was standing next to me, in uniform, was beaten by the cambridge police in harvard sq.

and i do mean beaten. never saw anyone spit at one, although i did hear the babykiller epithet thrown more than once.

just goes to show, no matter where you go on the planet, you're likely never more than a couple of yards from a complete asshole.

The Harvard Crimson :: News :: Rioting Devastates Harvard Square; Windows Smashed, Scores Injured

Why did they beat him?

I can easily believe that the police and the National Guard were often spat at...spit at?

i think he was basically in the wrong place at the wrong time and just got caught up in it. the cambridge TPF was trying to disperse an antiwar demonstration. i never talked to the guy, i just saw him go down amongst a bunch of cops with batons and helmets. he was in full uniform with medals, like he'd just come from some kind of official affair.

those TPF guys didn't care who or what they were beating, as long as they were beating someone. scary shit.

 

[noose4]

By early April, stories were circulating in several US cities about uniformed military personnel being spat on or otherwise mistreated. In Asheville, North Carolina, two Marines were rumored to have been spat upon, while in Spokane, Washington, a threat to "spit on the troops when they return from Iraq" was reportedly issued. In Burlington, Vermont, a leader of the state National Guard told local television, "We've had some spitting incidents," and then claimed one of his Guardswomen had been stoned by anti-war teenagers.

Upon further investigation, none of the stories panned out — the Spokane "threat" stemmed from the misreading of a letter in the local paper promising that opponents of the war would not spit on returning soldiers — and yet, in each case the rumors were used to stoke pro-war rallies.

Vietnam Veterans Against the War: THE VETERAN: Spitting on the Troops: Old Myth, New Rumors

i wasnt in vietnam i turned 18 in 1983 and joined up then and i can only say if somebody had spit upon me the next thing they would be doing would be spitting out their teeth, i really cant see some strung out filthy hippy spitting on some in shape vietnam combat vet, it doesnt seem like a healthy choice.

 

[Ravi]

actually, the worst treatment i ever saw of a returning vet was when one that was standing next to me, in uniform, was beaten by the cambridge police in harvard sq.

and i do mean beaten. never saw anyone spit at one, although i did hear the babykiller epithet thrown more than once.

just goes to show, no matter where you go on the planet, you're likely never more than a couple of yards from a complete asshole.

The Harvard Crimson :: News :: Rioting Devastates Harvard Square; Windows Smashed, Scores Injured

Why did they beat him?

I can easily believe that the police and the National Guard were often spat at...spit at?

i think he was basically in the wrong place at the wrong time and just got caught up in it. the cambridge TPF was trying to disperse an antiwar demonstration. i never talked to the guy, i just saw him go down amongst a bunch of cops with batons and helmets. he was in full uniform with medals, like he'd just come from some kind of official affair.

those TPF guys didn't care who or what they were beating, as long as they were beating someone. scary shit.

I bet. Pretty strange that they'd beat someone in uniform though. But cops tend to overreact.

 

[JakeStarkey]

OK, here is some background on Dr. Lemcke. Dr. Robert Turner wrote on the of the first fine books on Vietnamese communism and is a co-founder at the University of Virginia School of Law of the Center for National Security law. He and his brothers were vets and went through a scene similar to those that JenT and I described.

And then the interviewer of Turner below asks about Lemcke, who turns out is a leftist radical, which in turn outs rightwinger as a leftwing plant. Here we go:

TURNER: And a lot of people had that experience coming back. You know, people talk about - I saw one story in the press that nobody ever got spit on and so forth, but I can remember chasing one person down the hall in the airport in Los Angeles when I went down - I was out of the service, but my Marine Corps brother who had also done two tours in Vietnam came to meet me in his uniform, and a hippy type, whatever you want to call him, started, you know, calling him names, knowing that if he had responded he would get court-martialed, and - but I wasn't in the service and so I told the guy, I said, "You know, he can't do anything, but nothing keeps me from kicking your butt." I didn't want to hurt him. I just wanted to chase him down the hall, and I guess I had about 100 pounds on him, so he decided he'd better beat feet. But, you know, there was a lot of abuse like that, and -
SWETT: Dr. Turner, I actually looked into that a little bit. It seems that the source of the claim that the spitting incidents were urban legend is a guy named Jerry Lemke, who wrote an essay later expanded into a book called, "Spitting Image." He's a sociologist and, fascinatingly enough, a former member of the VVAW.

TURNER: Yeah.

SWETT: He also appeared at a conference that was intended to celebrate, I think, one of the anniversaries of the Communist Manifesto and so forth.

So my conclusion was perhaps he wasn't looking too hard for spitting incidents[/i].

So, rightwinger, you are a commie? You support the folks that were shootin' at our soldiers and airmen and marines and sailors? That is so wrong. And that makes 'sbones your Red Rosa.

Loozers. All can read further for themselves at To Set the Record Straight - Interview with Dr. Robert Turner, February 14, 2005 and do some research on JL. Rightwing, you are a loozer.

Reads like bullshit to me.

Specifically it reads like the sort of bullshit that somebody who never served might imagine is real, too

This for example, is utter and complete bullshit

knowing that if he had responded he would get court-martialed,

He would have , eh?

Not fucking likely.

See?

More speciaous nonsense from people PRETENDING to know what it is to be in uniform.

I get truly sick of you internet veteran heros, I truly do.

You honestly think that you can fake being veterans based on things you think you know about being in uniform you learned in the movies, don't you?

Fucking chickenhawking cowards.

[Jake quietly nodding his head, watching the lefties and the radicals struggle in their own nets. He sips his coffee, nods again, and goes back to making his next million.]

 

[JenT]

Just two days ago...how odd a whole town remembers and apologizes

[edited]

Fort Campbell welcomes home Vietnam vets
By KRISTIN M. HALL, AP
Sun Aug 16, 8:08 PM EDT

FORT CAMPBELL, Ky. — Tears filled the eyes of some Vietnam veterans who were warmly greeted with cheers from their family and friends Sunday in an re-enactment of their original return from the war, when they were often met with angry demonstrators and harsh headlines.

The ceremony was a first for the 101st Airborne Division and the Army, said Maj. Patrick Seiber, an Army spokesman based at Fort Campbell in Kentucky.

"Our hope is that other units and other posts will follow our lead in having this type of ceremony," he said.

Mickey Leighton, a 72-year-old Army veteran from Naples, Fla., said listening to the applause and praise from the community was very emotional.

Leighton, who started his military career at Fort Campbell in 1956, served two tours in Vietnam including the Tet Offensive. He returned in 1972 in the midst of angry anti-war protests that often placed blame on the individual soldiers.

"We were treated very shabbily," he said. "In some cases they would throw eggs at us, they would throw empty beer bottles at us and they would call us baby-killers."

He said many soldiers would immediately change clothes because they didn't want to wear their uniforms in public in the late 1960s and early '70s while traveling home after returning from war.

"Never in the history of the military have I known of any division or any military installation providing a specific welcome home for Vietnam veterans," Leighton said. "This is very touching."

In contrast, Fort Campbell soldiers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan are welcomed back with a ceremony after every deployment, with many completing three or four tours since the wars began.

Army leaders and the community around Fort Campbell collaborated for the Vietnam ceremony, Seiber said. The 101st Airborne Division Association, a group for former soldiers from the division, helped to organize and get the word out.

"I can't think of a better community to do this in than the Fort Campbell community," Seiber said.

Fort Campbell welcomes home Vietnam vets | Comcast.net

 

[Ravi]

When are you going to show us the pictures, Jen?

 

[JenT]

Ravi, even if I had one today I would tear it up, sure wouldn't post it, something that disgraceful should be burned