Florida Church in Standoff Over Koran Burning

[martybegan]

I just heard this nutjob, Terry Jones, interviewed.

FOXNews.com - Fla. City, Church in Standoff Over 9/11 Koran Burning

GAINESVILLE, FLA – A Florida church that was denied a permit for its controversial plan to burn copies of the Koran on Sept. 11 says the book burning will continue anyway.

The Dove World Outreach Center drew international attention after announcing its plan to burn copies of the Islamic holy text on church grounds to mark the ninth anniversary of the 9/11 terrorist attacks. <more>

What happened to that whole private property argument for the Ground Zero Mosque...right out the window when it's Christians.

Hypocrite.

Even private property is subject to zoning and local ordinances.

Deputy Chief Tim Hayes, who serves as the department's fire marshal, said he and an investigator went to the church's 20-acre property on Northwest 37th Street earlier this month to determine what the burn would entail.

Under the fire ordinances the City Commission adopted last year, bonfires aren't allowed without a permit, Hayes said.

Under Section 10-63, "Open burning and outdoor burning are prohibited in the City of Gainesville unless otherwise specifically permitted as provided by this article."

Gene Prince, interim chief of Gainesville Fire Rescue, said Wednesday that under the city's fire prevention ordinance, an open burning of books is not allowed.
The section goes on to prohibit burning newspaper, corrugated cardboard, container board or office paper, which are akin to books, Prince said.

Hayes said the denial had nothing to do with the church's intent.

Fox News left this out it's article



What city ordinances is the Cordoba House violating?

The ordinance is desgined to prevent trash burning in people's backyards. I call shennanigans on the Hayes' statement that the intent has nothing to do with it.

Plus once it becomes a political act that pesky 1st amendment comes into play. Burning trash is not speech, and is thus regulateable (wow did I make a new word?)

I'm sure they could get a variance if the burn it a certain distance from the property line and take precautions like mark a fire area, and have a hose ready.

Methinks the locals are more concerned about backlash than a section of the old fire code.

 

[Coyote]

What happened to that whole private property argument for the Ground Zero Mosque...right out the window when it's Christians.

Hypocrite.

Even private property is subject to zoning and local ordinances.

Deputy Chief Tim Hayes, who serves as the department's fire marshal, said he and an investigator went to the church's 20-acre property on Northwest 37th Street earlier this month to determine what the burn would entail.

Under the fire ordinances the City Commission adopted last year, bonfires aren't allowed without a permit, Hayes said.

Under Section 10-63, "Open burning and outdoor burning are prohibited in the City of Gainesville unless otherwise specifically permitted as provided by this article."

Gene Prince, interim chief of Gainesville Fire Rescue, said Wednesday that under the city's fire prevention ordinance, an open burning of books is not allowed.
The section goes on to prohibit burning newspaper, corrugated cardboard, container board or office paper, which are akin to books, Prince said.

Hayes said the denial had nothing to do with the church's intent.

Fox News left this out it's article



What city ordinances is the Cordoba House violating?

The ordinance is desgined to prevent trash burning in people's backyards. I call shennanigans on the Hayes' statement that the intent has nothing to do with it.

Maybe maybe not.

I live in a rural area and outdoor burnings are seasonally regulated. If you add in abnormally dry weather, the risk of fire is high. Burning large amounts of paper products produces a lot of airborne sparks and ash that could easily start fires.

It's interesting that everyone jumps to the conclusion that it's all a "free speech matter", without considering that August is a very dry month.

Plus once it becomes a political act that pesky 1st amendment comes into play. Burning trash is not speech, and is thus regulateable (wow did I make a new word?)

What evidence is it that it is 1st amendment act? What's to stop them from burning them in an indoor setting - a fire place for example? Answer: nothing, it would be totally legal. But, there is nothing like a good old fashioned book burning bonfire to garner media attention is there?

I'm sure they could get a variance if the burn it a certain distance from the property line and take precautions like mark a fire area, and have a hose ready.

Methinks the locals are more concerned about backlash than a section of the old fire code.

It really depends on the local conditions and the rules. There are times of the year under certain conditions - we can not burn at all. Everyone WANTS to make this a free speech issue but that doesn't necessarily mean it is.

My personal feeling is - if they want to do it, let them do it - free speech is free speech however deplorable whether it's this pseudo-Dove-faux-Christian movement or NAMBLA. Treat them like the Westboro Baptist Trash - that's what they emulate - host a counter movement of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim unity for peace so the world can see what a bunch of haters they are.

It would blow their little minds. Or, just piss them off and make them more determined but then we could point our fingers and laugh at them.

 

[martybegan]

Even private property is subject to zoning and local ordinances.





Fox News left this out it's article



What city ordinances is the Cordoba House violating?

The ordinance is desgined to prevent trash burning in people's backyards. I call shennanigans on the Hayes' statement that the intent has nothing to do with it.

Maybe maybe not.

I live in a rural area and outdoor burnings are seasonally regulated. If you add in abnormally dry weather, the risk of fire is high. Burning large amounts of paper products produces a lot of airborne sparks and ash that could easily start fires.

It's interesting that everyone jumps to the conclusion that it's all a "free speech matter", without considering that August is a very dry month.

Plus once it becomes a political act that pesky 1st amendment comes into play. Burning trash is not speech, and is thus regulateable (wow did I make a new word?)

What evidence is it that it is 1st amendment act? What's to stop them from burning them in an indoor setting - a fire place for example? Answer: nothing, it would be totally legal. But, there is nothing like a good old fashioned book burning bonfire to garner media attention is there?

I'm sure they could get a variance if the burn it a certain distance from the property line and take precautions like mark a fire area, and have a hose ready.

Methinks the locals are more concerned about backlash than a section of the old fire code.

It really depends on the local conditions and the rules. There are times of the year under certain conditions - we can not burn at all. Everyone WANTS to make this a free speech issue but that doesn't necessarily mean it is.

My personal feeling is - if they want to do it, let them do it - free speech is free speech however deplorable whether it's this pseudo-Dove-faux-Christian movement or NAMBLA. Treat them like the Westboro Baptist Trash - that's what they emulate - host a counter movement of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim unity for peace so the world can see what a bunch of haters they are.

It would blow their little minds. Or, just piss them off and make them more determined but then we could point our fingers and laugh at them.

I thought this was a more urban setting, like in town, thats where i got the trash burning reference.

As for the burning inside, you then get into regulating the type of speech, which is often worse than banning it. Unless it falls into the fighting words catagory or yelling "FIRE" regulation to me is worse than banning.

 

[Shogun]

It would probably be less of an issue due to the fact that most of Christianity does not hold the physical form of the bible to be sacred, it is the content that is.

Islam and Judaism on the other hand, hold the physical text of their scripture to be sacred. This is why you see the torah stored in a specific way in synogogues, as well as a much more limited circulation of Koran's as opposed to bibles.

This is why you also have much more issues when a random string of symobols on say a sneaker, or some clothing match the saying of koranic scripture. Again it is not only the content but the text itself that his holy.

In short people burning a Koran is much much much worse from a perception point of view than a person burning a bible.

riiiiiight... remind me what happened to the artwork called Pissed Christ, again?

I am glad no one holds a grudge. that was what 25-30 years ago?

Remember the Maine!

oh sorry.. does historic relevance have an expiration date?

 

[Shogun]

Harry Reid must also be a Fascist:

“As such, I am opposed to the construction of the Cordoba Centre at the currently-proposed location and urge all parties to work with local community leaders to find a more appropriate site."

Harry Reid is fishing for votes. That's pretty obvious, don't you think?

 

[Shogun]

Shogun, since you are completely fixated on this Koran burning article that came out YESTERDAY, I would suggest you start with the four listings of this story at HuffPo...specifically the comments sections.

Here's the Google page:

Huffington post dove church Koran - Google Search

I'm not fixated at all. What i AM doing, however, is showing you how laughably hypocritical you are for completely failing to list any kind of equivalence with lefties HERE as we see righties about a mosque in NY.


clear that up for you? Now, about those liberals screaming bloody fucking murder about burning korans...

 

[Shogun]

Damn these Fascists:

Ground zero mosque debate divides Democrats :: CHICAGO SUN-TIMES :: 44: Barack Obama

sensationalized hysteria happens. Where were YOU three months prior to the invasion of Iraq? Circling mobile chem labs?

 

[Shogun]

Damn, another Fascist...these sombitches are coming out of the woodwork:

Former Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean said Thursday that some members of his party are "demonizing" opponents of the Lower Manhattan mosque.



Dean — who surprised many political observers this week by saying that the planners should move the location of the planned Islamic center — targeted Democrats and Republicans in an interview with MSNBC.​

Dean: 'Some' Dems demonizing N.Y. mosque opponents - The Hill's Blog Briefing Room​

Dems were baited into following along in 2003 too...

 

[Shogun]

What city ordinances is the Cordoba House violating?

As far as I know, none.

But just because something is LEGAL, doesn't make it right.

Just as a recent example in the news, it is now legal to lie about receiving a Medal of Honor, as the "Stolen Valor Act" was deemed an unconstitutional restriction of the first amendment right to free speech.

Appeals court: Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional - Yahoo! News

So it's legal...and Constitutionally protected...does that make it right?
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If you didn't get to it...here is my explanation of my position.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/curre...-standoff-over-koran-burning.html#post2639549

Your opinion of what is "right" means two things. One starts with a J and the other an S. I'll let you figure out what they are as that mosque continues on its way to being built and this silly koran burning bastard becomes not even a spark of a memory a year from now.

 

[Shogun]

It would probably be less of an issue due to the fact that most of Christianity does not hold the physical form of the bible to be sacred, it is the content that is.

Islam and Judaism on the other hand, hold the physical text of their scripture to be sacred. This is why you see the torah stored in a specific way in synogogues, as well as a much more limited circulation of Koran's as opposed to bibles.

This is why you also have much more issues when a random string of symobols on say a sneaker, or some clothing match the saying of koranic scripture. Again it is not only the content but the text itself that his holy.

In short people burning a Koran is much much much worse from a perception point of view than a person burning a bible.

riiiiiight... remind me what happened to the artwork called Pissed Christ, again?

That would be more comparable to the Mohammed cartoons debacle. Graven images of Christ are much more blasphemous than doing bad things to a bible. And while Mr Serrano recieved death threats, and the artwork was attacked by some nutballs, the reaction pales in comparison to that of the Mohammed artwork.

ALWAYS a difference!


The reaction to perceived blasphemy is equivalent even if it makes your balls ache to admit it. I garentfuckingtee that more christians would freak the fuck out about burning bibles moreso than burning little jesus on a cross icons.

but hey.. continue to find whatever sidestep necessary.

 

[martybegan]

riiiiiight... remind me what happened to the artwork called Pissed Christ, again?

That would be more comparable to the Mohammed cartoons debacle. Graven images of Christ are much more blasphemous than doing bad things to a bible. And while Mr Serrano recieved death threats, and the artwork was attacked by some nutballs, the reaction pales in comparison to that of the Mohammed artwork.

ALWAYS a difference!


The reaction to perceived blasphemy is equivalent even if it makes your balls ache to admit it. I garentfuckingtee that more christians would freak the fuck out about burning bibles moreso than burning little jesus on a cross icons.

but hey.. continue to find whatever sidestep necessary.

and continue to make up things like me sidestepping instead of actual debate.

The Burning a cross is worse. Look at how crosses are treated, often placed on a wall, or set on a table, in a position of reference. Bibles can be found even in the most reverent houses in bookshelves, desks etc.

Hell the freaking Gideons place them in hotel drawers, where they can never be sure what the hell happens to them.

You again miss my point. To christians is it the CONTENT of a bible that is holy. To Jews and Muslisms it is the CONTENT and the PHYSICAL FORM of thier texts that is holy.

 

[Shogun]

That would be more comparable to the Mohammed cartoons debacle. Graven images of Christ are much more blasphemous than doing bad things to a bible. And while Mr Serrano recieved death threats, and the artwork was attacked by some nutballs, the reaction pales in comparison to that of the Mohammed artwork.

ALWAYS a difference!


The reaction to perceived blasphemy is equivalent even if it makes your balls ache to admit it. I garentfuckingtee that more christians would freak the fuck out about burning bibles moreso than burning little jesus on a cross icons.

but hey.. continue to find whatever sidestep necessary.

and continue to make up things like me sidestepping instead of actual debate.

The Burning a cross is worse. Look at how crosses are treated, often placed on a wall, or set on a table, in a position of reference. Bibles can be found even in the most reverent houses in bookshelves, desks etc.

Hell the freaking Gideons place them in hotel drawers, where they can never be sure what the hell happens to them.

You again miss my point. To christians is it the CONTENT of a bible that is holy. To Jews and Muslisms it is the CONTENT and the PHYSICAL FORM of thier texts that is holy.

yea dude.. we sure haven't seen anyone burn a fucking cross without widescale christian backlash before have we?

 

[Coyote]

The ordinance is desgined to prevent trash burning in people's backyards. I call shennanigans on the Hayes' statement that the intent has nothing to do with it.

Maybe maybe not.

I live in a rural area and outdoor burnings are seasonally regulated. If you add in abnormally dry weather, the risk of fire is high. Burning large amounts of paper products produces a lot of airborne sparks and ash that could easily start fires.

It's interesting that everyone jumps to the conclusion that it's all a "free speech matter", without considering that August is a very dry month.



What evidence is it that it is 1st amendment act? What's to stop them from burning them in an indoor setting - a fire place for example? Answer: nothing, it would be totally legal. But, there is nothing like a good old fashioned book burning bonfire to garner media attention is there?

I'm sure they could get a variance if the burn it a certain distance from the property line and take precautions like mark a fire area, and have a hose ready.

Methinks the locals are more concerned about backlash than a section of the old fire code.

It really depends on the local conditions and the rules. There are times of the year under certain conditions - we can not burn at all. Everyone WANTS to make this a free speech issue but that doesn't necessarily mean it is.

My personal feeling is - if they want to do it, let them do it - free speech is free speech however deplorable whether it's this pseudo-Dove-faux-Christian movement or NAMBLA. Treat them like the Westboro Baptist Trash - that's what they emulate - host a counter movement of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim unity for peace so the world can see what a bunch of haters they are.

It would blow their little minds. Or, just piss them off and make them more determined but then we could point our fingers and laugh at them.

I thought this was a more urban setting, like in town, thats where i got the trash burning reference.

As for the burning inside, you then get into regulating the type of speech, which is often worse than banning it. Unless it falls into the fighting words catagory or yelling "FIRE" regulation to me is worse than banning.

You make a good point - I hadn't thought of it that way.

I was thinking rural becuase I think it mentioned the church had a multi-acre (20 acre?) lot - I could be wrong though.

 

[uscitizen]

riiiiiight... remind me what happened to the artwork called Pissed Christ, again?

I am glad no one holds a grudge. that was what 25-30 years ago?

Remember the Maine!

oh sorry.. does historic relevance have an expiration date?

No but significance does.

One act by one "artist" How many years ago?

And yet if I bring up Iran contra which caused some real problems it seems to be a different story?

 

[Shogun]

I am glad no one holds a grudge. that was what 25-30 years ago?

Remember the Maine!

oh sorry.. does historic relevance have an expiration date?

No but significance does.

One act by one "artist" How many years ago?

it wasn't the act of the artist I referred to but rather the act against his art.. way to keep up.

 

[Metternich]

They're free to do what they want, but I disapprove of burning books in general. I wouldn't even burn a copy of Twilight unless it was necessary for survival.

But burning a copy of the Twilight series is necessary for survival!

 

[martybegan]

ALWAYS a difference!


The reaction to perceived blasphemy is equivalent even if it makes your balls ache to admit it. I garentfuckingtee that more christians would freak the fuck out about burning bibles moreso than burning little jesus on a cross icons.

but hey.. continue to find whatever sidestep necessary.

and continue to make up things like me sidestepping instead of actual debate.

The Burning a cross is worse. Look at how crosses are treated, often placed on a wall, or set on a table, in a position of reference. Bibles can be found even in the most reverent houses in bookshelves, desks etc.

Hell the freaking Gideons place them in hotel drawers, where they can never be sure what the hell happens to them.

You again miss my point. To christians is it the CONTENT of a bible that is holy. To Jews and Muslisms it is the CONTENT and the PHYSICAL FORM of thier texts that is holy.

yea dude.. we sure haven't seen anyone burn a fucking cross without widescale christian backlash before have we?

Actually you usually get more of black backlash from cross burning.

Kinda interesting considering it is supposed christians doing it.

And widescale christian backlash usually results in some stern words, and the donohue guy getting his 15 minutes on the TV. Muslim backlash can be a bit more physical, and even if not, usually implies more of a threat to those its targets.

 

[martybegan]

Maybe maybe not.

I live in a rural area and outdoor burnings are seasonally regulated. If you add in abnormally dry weather, the risk of fire is high. Burning large amounts of paper products produces a lot of airborne sparks and ash that could easily start fires.

It's interesting that everyone jumps to the conclusion that it's all a "free speech matter", without considering that August is a very dry month.



What evidence is it that it is 1st amendment act? What's to stop them from burning them in an indoor setting - a fire place for example? Answer: nothing, it would be totally legal. But, there is nothing like a good old fashioned book burning bonfire to garner media attention is there?




It really depends on the local conditions and the rules. There are times of the year under certain conditions - we can not burn at all. Everyone WANTS to make this a free speech issue but that doesn't necessarily mean it is.

My personal feeling is - if they want to do it, let them do it - free speech is free speech however deplorable whether it's this pseudo-Dove-faux-Christian movement or NAMBLA. Treat them like the Westboro Baptist Trash - that's what they emulate - host a counter movement of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim unity for peace so the world can see what a bunch of haters they are.

It would blow their little minds. Or, just piss them off and make them more determined but then we could point our fingers and laugh at them.

I thought this was a more urban setting, like in town, thats where i got the trash burning reference.

As for the burning inside, you then get into regulating the type of speech, which is often worse than banning it. Unless it falls into the fighting words catagory or yelling "FIRE" regulation to me is worse than banning.

You make a good point - I hadn't thought of it that way.

I was thinking rural becuase I think it mentioned the church had a multi-acre (20 acre?) lot - I could be wrong though.

Dove world outreach center - Google Maps

looks like suburbistan to me. Right outside of gainsville. Never been there though so not really sure. Google Map rocks.

 

[syrenn]

I just heard this nutjob, Terry Jones, interviewed.

FOXNews.com - Fla. City, Church in Standoff Over 9/11 Koran Burning

GAINESVILLE, FLA &#8211; A Florida church that was denied a permit for its controversial plan to burn copies of the Koran on Sept. 11 says the book burning will continue anyway.

The Dove World Outreach Center drew international attention after announcing its plan to burn copies of the Islamic holy text on church grounds to mark the ninth anniversary of the 9/11 terrorist attacks. <more>

Churches have fund raising BBQ's all the time. Just use an alternative flue source...and roast a pig! Invite everyone to join in.

Zone that!

 

[Avatar4321]

This is the United States of America. They should be allowed to burn books just like the mosque should be allowed to be built. Religious freedom and political speech are fundamental rights.

But I still think it's incredibly stupid and rude to burn the books, just as I think it's disrespectful to the victims of the 9/11 attacks to build the mosque there. Just because we have freedom to do something doesn't necessarily mean it's wise to do so.