End Public Sector Unions Period.

[Skull Pilot]

Great, now we've got Hitler references, although union thugs are carrying Hitler signs and calling their elected governor that.

We've got a lib saying that without unions "Why would they pay anyone a decent wage"? Which begs the question of does he also support illegal immigration, because without abundant labor, why pay Americans more? I betcha he wants the open border.

Only about 12% of workers are unionized. To say that changing the way government deals with unions will mean we all suffer is a bit of a stretch.

Let's face it, unions are declining but they are desperately trying to cling to their flagging power and status.

 

[bucs90]

Perhaps the citizens of WI and other States should be the ones to decide what they want to pay their teachers and Public workers. Leave the Union and local Govt out of the process altogether.

When talks come up to renew contracts have a special vote within the cities. Having the vote will probably cost money but the citizens will be the decider, not the Union or the Local Govt.

It is their tax dollar after all.

They did already. They voted in a Republican governor. They want him to do this. The 60,000 whining libs in Madison don't want that, but the other 4,000,000 or so Wisconsinonians (WTH do they call themselves?) want this.

 

[Old Rocks]

The signs I saw refered to the fact that Hitler also destroyed unions.

 

[Skull Pilot]

The signs I saw refered to the fact that Hitler also destroyed unions.

How about the "Death to Tyrants" signs?

 

[bucs90]

I know this: If I was a parent in Wisconsin, seeing how my kid's teachers acted liked spoiled brats all week, I'm move them into a private school faster than you can say "You Betcha!".

 

[Madeline]

I am trying to see both sides of this issue. But I am a pragmatist. Let's suppose for a second that all public employee unions were disbanded. What next? Who sets the compensation? Where is the starting point? How much are people willing to pay teachers, cops, and social workers? Many secretaries and teachers aides make LESS in salary than their health benefits. How much should they have to "sacrifice"?

I am very curious to hear some ideas.

The current contracts and pension plans should be voided, chanel. There has been far too much "may I pay you Wednesday for a hamburger today?' going on for years. The compensation of a teacher should reflect the cost of living in the community where she teaches, the years she has on the job (to a degree) and the results she can get -- however the hell that may be measured. And there should not be such extremely low pay for new teachers nor extremely high pay for old ones.

I would support a public employee union if all civil service laws were repealed...but not every employee joins the union. Many states render closed shops unconstitutional for state con law purposes. So I'd put in strong "cannot be terminated or disciplined without good cause" language in the civil service law and outlaw the union.

However, I would also do more to supervise administrators, reduce the obscene salaries many are paid and limit the number of them. A civilian review board for administrators might be helpful, or mebbe some sort of administrative law judge appeals system.

So inner city teachers who work in communities where the avg. household salary is $20K should make around the same? Considering they generally have poor performing students, should that be reflected in their compensation?

Teachers who work in wealthy communities where the avg. household income is $100K + and 90% of the students go on to college should be paid more?

Do you see where I'm going with this?

I also don't agree with "closed shops", but I'm still trying to figure out who would be doing the "bargaining" if unions are eliminated.

The cost of living I had in mind was Boston vs. Topeka, chanel, not the prevailing wage on a neighborhood by neighborhood basis. I dun think anyone expects or wants that teachers not be paid a wage sufficient to sustain tem in the middle class, but some cities are exorbitant to live in.

I dun think there needs to be collective bargaining. The civil service laws can set out some broadly-defined compensation rules and the annual budget for the state can set out such things as cost of living increases, dollar amount of merit raises, etc.

 

[Old Rocks]

Perhaps the citizens of WI and other States should be the ones to decide what they want to pay their teachers and Public workers. Leave the Union and local Govt out of the process altogether.

When talks come up to renew contracts have a special vote within the cities. Having the vote will probably cost money but the citizens will be the decider, not the Union or the Local Govt.

It is their tax dollar after all.

They did already. They voted in a Republican governor. They want him to do this. The 60,000 whining libs in Madison don't want that, but the other 4,000,000 or so Wisconsinonians (WTH do they call themselves?) want this.

And 300,000,000 Americans elected Obama President. So you have no right to demonstrate against any of his policies that affect you, correct? For that is what you are stating concerning the teachers and Governor Walker.

 

[bucs90]

The signs I saw refered to the fact that Hitler also destroyed unions.

Hitler also banned private gun ownership. And took over all healthcare. And took over all education. And took over as much of the economy as he could. And pushed a "green movement" amongst his youth to convince them that a "pure" environment was necessary for a proper society.

Don't see them making Hitler references when Dem's try to do the same.

 

[bucs90]

Perhaps the citizens of WI and other States should be the ones to decide what they want to pay their teachers and Public workers. Leave the Union and local Govt out of the process altogether.

When talks come up to renew contracts have a special vote within the cities. Having the vote will probably cost money but the citizens will be the decider, not the Union or the Local Govt.

It is their tax dollar after all.

They did already. They voted in a Republican governor. They want him to do this. The 60,000 whining libs in Madison don't want that, but the other 4,000,000 or so Wisconsinonians (WTH do they call themselves?) want this.

And 300,000,000 Americans elected Obama President. So you have no right to demonstrate against any of his policies that affect you, correct? For that is what you are stating concerning the teachers and Governor Walker.

Did I say that? Someone said the people of Wisconsin should decide how this plays out. I said they already have through the election.

Never said the minority couldn't protest it. It's childish, and they falsified gov't documents to be out of work that day (sick leave slips). But it's their protest right.

And yep, America elected Obama. And 2 years later, we realized what a fuck up that was, and swept the right wing back into offices across the land. 2012 will finish the job.

 

[WillowTree]

Perhaps the citizens of WI and other States should be the ones to decide what they want to pay their teachers and Public workers. Leave the Union and local Govt out of the process altogether.

When talks come up to renew contracts have a special vote within the cities. Having the vote will probably cost money but the citizens will be the decider, not the Union or the Local Govt.

It is their tax dollar after all.

They did already. They voted in a Republican governor. They want him to do this. The 60,000 whining libs in Madison don't want that, but the other 4,000,000 or so Wisconsinonians (WTH do they call themselves?) want this.

And 300,000,000 Americans elected Obama President. So you have no right to demonstrate against any of his policies that affect you, correct? For that is what you are stating concerning the teachers and Governor Walker.

You have every right to demonstrate. What's going to kill your idea of high ideals is your demonrats fleeing the state and hiding out in Illinois to avoid voting on the issue. The Taxpayers of Wisconsin voted these individuals into office to work for ALL the people not just their select special interest groups that's a lesson you and obie wan would do well to learn.

 

[The T]

Sure, Grunt, we know that history very well. From Blair mountain to the mining camp in Colorado. The company goons fire on the union folk with machine guns, burn their children to death, and the union men go to jail for inciting a riot. That is why men like Governor Walker are regarded as scum by anyone with a brain.

Then why do you regard him as scum again?

 

[bucs90]

Sure, Grunt, we know that history very well. From Blair mountain to the mining camp in Colorado. The company goons fire on the union folk with machine guns, burn their children to death, and the union men go to jail for inciting a riot. That is why men like Governor Walker are regarded as scum by anyone with a brain.

Then why do you regard him as scum again?

Because he is committing the ghastly, unthinkable, horrible, ruthless, heartless, diabolical sin of.............................balancing his budget.

To a liberal, a balanced budget is the worst sin of all time Because with a balanced budget, how can they redistribute wealth?

 

[The T]

They did already. They voted in a Republican governor. They want him to do this. The 60,000 whining libs in Madison don't want that, but the other 4,000,000 or so Wisconsinonians (WTH do they call themselves?) want this.

And 300,000,000 Americans elected Obama President. So you have no right to demonstrate against any of his policies that affect you, correct? For that is what you are stating concerning the teachers and Governor Walker.

Did I say that? Someone said the people of Wisconsin should decide how this plays out. I said they already have through the election.

Never said the minority couldn't protest it. It's childish, and they falsified gov't documents to be out of work that day (sick leave slips). But it's their protest right.

And yep, America elected Obama. And 2 years later, we realized what a fuck up that was, and swept the right wing back into offices across the land. 2012 will finish the job.

 

[asterism]

I am trying to see both sides of this issue. But I am a pragmatist. Let's suppose for a second that all public employee unions were disbanded. What next? Who sets the compensation? Where is the starting point? How much are people willing to pay teachers, cops, and social workers? Many secretaries and teachers aides make LESS in salary than their health benefits. How much should they have to "sacrifice"?

I am very curious to hear some ideas.

The current contracts and pension plans should be voided, chanel. There has been far too much "may I pay you Wednesday for a hamburger today?' going on for years. The compensation of a teacher should reflect the cost of living in the community where she teaches, the years she has on the job (to a degree) and the results she can get -- however the hell that may be measured. And there should not be such extremely low pay for new teachers nor extremely high pay for old ones.

I would support a public employee union if all civil service laws were repealed...but not every employee joins the union. Many states render closed shops unconstitutional for state con law purposes. So I'd put in strong "cannot be terminated or disciplined without good cause" language in the civil service law and outlaw the union.

However, I would also do more to supervise administrators, reduce the obscene salaries many are paid and limit the number of them. A civilian review board for administrators might be helpful, or mebbe some sort of administrative law judge appeals system.

So inner city teachers who work in communities where the avg. household salary is $20K should make around the same? Considering they generally have poor performing students, should that be reflected in their compensation?

Teachers who work in wealthy communities where the avg. household income is $100K + and 90% of the students go on to college should be paid more?

Do you see where I'm going with this?

I also don't agree with "closed shops", but I'm still trying to figure out who would be doing the "bargaining" if unions are eliminated.

Teachers generally have 4 year degrees. CPAs generally have 4 year degrees. Why do educated people in one profession need a collective bargaining unit while educated people in another profession do not?

 

[Cuyo]

I'm not interested in being fair, or moderate.

End all unions. Make each individual bargain based only on his own merit. If you suck as an employee, you don't deserve increased pay and benefits. If you work hard and efficient, you get rewarded.

If a company doesn't reward good employees, then good employees leave for better jobs at their competition. Thus, the company has it in their best interest to retain the best employees.

By only having individual bargaining, employers can single out their best employees for the best treatment, and get rid of the slack and lazy weight.

End all unions, slowly but surely. We won, and will keep winning, more and more elections. This is step one to the road to conservatism. We have the momentum, and will win.

But the thing is, we live in a free market society. You don't have the right to prevent workers from organizing. It's an exercise in pure capitalism.

 

[asterism]

The current contracts and pension plans should be voided, chanel. There has been far too much "may I pay you Wednesday for a hamburger today?' going on for years. The compensation of a teacher should reflect the cost of living in the community where she teaches, the years she has on the job (to a degree) and the results she can get -- however the hell that may be measured. And there should not be such extremely low pay for new teachers nor extremely high pay for old ones.

I would support a public employee union if all civil service laws were repealed...but not every employee joins the union. Many states render closed shops unconstitutional for state con law purposes. So I'd put in strong "cannot be terminated or disciplined without good cause" language in the civil service law and outlaw the union.

However, I would also do more to supervise administrators, reduce the obscene salaries many are paid and limit the number of them. A civilian review board for administrators might be helpful, or mebbe some sort of administrative law judge appeals system.

So inner city teachers who work in communities where the avg. household salary is $20K should make around the same? Considering they generally have poor performing students, should that be reflected in their compensation?

Teachers who work in wealthy communities where the avg. household income is $100K + and 90% of the students go on to college should be paid more?

Do you see where I'm going with this?

I also don't agree with "closed shops", but I'm still trying to figure out who would be doing the "bargaining" if unions are eliminated.

The cost of living I had in mind was Boston vs. Topeka, chanel, not the prevailing wage on a neighborhood by neighborhood basis. I dun think anyone expects or wants that teachers not be paid a wage sufficient to sustain tem in the middle class, but some cities are exorbitant to live in.

I dun think there needs to be collective bargaining. The civil service laws can set out some broadly-defined compensation rules and the annual budget for the state can set out such things as cost of living increases, dollar amount of merit raises, etc.

Also there should be a way to pay to top performers huge money while getting rid of the non performers without regard to seniority. Doing a mediocre job for 20 years is not more valuable than new brilliance.

 

[bucs90]

I'm not interested in being fair, or moderate.

End all unions. Make each individual bargain based only on his own merit. If you suck as an employee, you don't deserve increased pay and benefits. If you work hard and efficient, you get rewarded.

If a company doesn't reward good employees, then good employees leave for better jobs at their competition. Thus, the company has it in their best interest to retain the best employees.

By only having individual bargaining, employers can single out their best employees for the best treatment, and get rid of the slack and lazy weight.

End all unions, slowly but surely. We won, and will keep winning, more and more elections. This is step one to the road to conservatism. We have the momentum, and will win.

But the thing is, we live in a free market society. You don't have the right to prevent workers from organizing. It's an exercise in pure capitalism.

Yes, but I do have the right to fire them. They can protest all their whining little behinds want to...............AFTER they get off work.

But they skip work, falsify a government document for sick leave, and go all 60's on us during work hours? Bye bye, as Trump says, "You're fired."

 

[WillowTree]

And 300,000,000 Americans elected Obama President. So you have no right to demonstrate against any of his policies that affect you, correct? For that is what you are stating concerning the teachers and Governor Walker.

Did I say that? Someone said the people of Wisconsin should decide how this plays out. I said they already have through the election.

Never said the minority couldn't protest it. It's childish, and they falsified gov't documents to be out of work that day (sick leave slips). But it's their protest right.

And yep, America elected Obama. And 2 years later, we realized what a fuck up that was, and swept the right wing back into offices across the land. 2012 will finish the job.

Yes, and if these assholes ever do go back to work they'll come down hard on any kid who skips school.. fucking hypocrites.

 

[Claudette]

Perhaps we should just state that all teachers will get minimum wage with no benefits. That would suit your Conservative agenda to a tee. Then the next generation would be just as ignorant as you are.

You have a problem with the citizen voting how their tax money is spent??

Oh yea. I forgot. YOour one of those uber smart Liberals who love to spend someone elses money.

Never mind.

 

[bucs90]

Did I say that? Someone said the people of Wisconsin should decide how this plays out. I said they already have through the election.

Never said the minority couldn't protest it. It's childish, and they falsified gov't documents to be out of work that day (sick leave slips). But it's their protest right.

And yep, America elected Obama. And 2 years later, we realized what a fuck up that was, and swept the right wing back into offices across the land. 2012 will finish the job.

Yes, and if these assholes ever do go back to work they'll come down hard on any kid who skips school.. fucking hypocrites.

Imagine if they caught a kid who got his report card and fake his parent's signature then turned it back in. And the kid gets in trouble.

And the kid then says "Well, my teacher said that when you might get in trouble, just fake it and try to get out of trouble, I"m just doing what my teacher did mom."

Every single teacher that faked an illness should be fired on spot. No more job. Go find work elsewhere you crybabies who are, btw, making a compensation package of avg $89,500 a year.