End Public Sector Unions Period.

[bucs90]

Perhaps we should just state that all teachers will get minimum wage with no benefits. That would suit your Conservative agenda to a tee. Then the next generation would be just as ignorant as you are.

You have a problem with the citizen voting how their tax money is spent??

Oh yea. I forgot. YOour one of those uber smart Liberals who love to spend someone elses money.

Never mind.

Yes, liberals have a problem with that.

But you see, you and I and everyone else MUST get the message that liberal and union members are putting out there: There are people who are entitled to the money that is in the wallets of people like you and I. People like public union members, welfare queens. They are entitled to yours and mine, and it is not our right to vote against that.

 

[PoliticalChic]

To end the right to bargain collectively for any American, you'd have to amend the constitution....remember Freedom Of Association?

You people disgust me. Did none of you study history?

Yes, there are useless unions and yes, there are corrupt unions. But what about coal miners? Construction workers? Food and retail workers?

When you knee-jerk yank your fellow man's rights, what's to stop him yanking yours? Don't you ever get tired of being a puppet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHzRNBSk348

"At Avery Fisher Hall and Alice Tully Hall in Lincoln Center, the average stagehand salary and benefits package is $290,000 a year.

To repeat, that is the average compensation of all the workers who move musicians' chairs into place and hang lights, not the pay of the top five.

Across the plaza at the Metropolitan Opera, a spokesman said stagehands rarely broke into the top-five category. But a couple of years ago, one did. The props master, James Blumenfeld, got $334,000 at that time, including some vacation back pay."



Read more at the Washington Examiner: The power of unions: Average stagehand at Lincoln Center in NYC makes $290K a year | Mark Hemingway | Beltway Confidential | Washington Examiner

OK. PC, what about the CEOs that crashed their companies, the got multimillion dollar golden parachutes? What about the financial people that damned near put us into the Second Great Republican Depression? And walked away with tens of millions of dollars, instead of prison terms.

The teachers and state workers in Wisconsin are not making six figure salaries. In fact, they make considerably less than I do. And the teachers have to have at least a four year college degree.

People like you piss and moan about the quality of the teachers, then do everything you can to make sure that the pay is such that the best people will not even think about applying for the job. Just as in private industry, you want quality, you pay for it.

"People like you"...see some kind of relationship between the quality of teachers and the salary they earn...

Let's see you document that.


Should you be unable to back up your post, it would be another indictment of your 'teachers,' wouldn't it?

BTW, here in NYC, teachers earn six figure salaries.
And that does not include the 27% or so additional in benefits.

So...which of us is doing the ' piss and moan' routine?


Now, one reason for your ineptitude in posting might be your ineptitude at reading...my posts have all been in favor of not being too harsh on the public sector worker. See my OP "Why NOT To Attack Public Sector Workers."


I await your retraction.

 

[Granny]

Unions are nothing more than a bunch of leeches. They suck the blood out of any company. Their demands get to be more and more and the union employees work out put gets to be less and less. In addition, it seems that every union employee that I know is just a walking sack of smug bullshit.

I have to agree. Unions can take down a company in relatively short order by making preposterous demands. I understand free association - but demanding that everyone be a union worker is just as bad. No one should HAVE to be in a union in order to make a living. I think there was a time in our history that unions were needed - but that time has long passed. Back when I was young, it was the UNIONS who were doing all the physical damage. It was the truckers' union members who were shooting up the highways when there was a strike and non-union and/or independent truckers didn't show solidarity during the strikes. Over time it was the unions which became corrupt to the core - and that stands today. Unions (at least in the past) padded union jobs/contract with non-existent workers - that money was paid out - but who got that money?

My personal opinion is that unions should be done away with. With federal laws in force to protect many situations initially demanded by unions, there's really no need for them in their current form. Part of the problem today is in government corruption and failure to enforce laws that are there to protect workers.

It's the unions that "own" the companies - big financial demands for union workers drives costs up and jobs get sent out to foreign sweatshops in order for companies to be able to continue making their products, costs of those products go up for consumers - there has to be a way for companies to continue to exist, pay all overhead operation costs, AND still be able to have finances to keep up with financial obligations to union demands. If companies don't, won't, or can't meet union demands during collective bargaining - oops - let's have a strike to force the issue. Everybody loses.

In addition, non-union members get the exact same benefits - pay, benefits, etc. - that union workers get. It's all encompassing. Unions rely on the stupidity of members by selling them a song and a dance about how much unions can do for workers and from one generation to the next people become union members and believe union promises - some of which cannot be fulfilled. I'm sure Great-grandaddy and Grandaddy had very bad working conditions - but they didn't have the protection of laws that we have today.

 

[Wry Catcher]

They did already. They voted in a Republican governor. They want him to do this. The 60,000 whining libs in Madison don't want that, but the other 4,000,000 or so Wisconsinonians (WTH do they call themselves?) want this.

And 300,000,000 Americans elected Obama President. So you have no right to demonstrate against any of his policies that affect you, correct? For that is what you are stating concerning the teachers and Governor Walker.

Did I say that? Someone said the people of Wisconsin should decide how this plays out. I said they already have through the election.

Never said the minority couldn't protest it. It's childish, and they falsified gov't documents to be out of work that day (sick leave slips). But it's their protest right.

And yep, America elected Obama. And 2 years later, we realized what a fuck up that was, and swept the right wing back into offices across the land. 2012 will finish the job.

And the pendulum will swing again; power tends to corrupt and when change is too rapid, emotion and not reason prevail, those in power will overreach; the people will say, "enough!"
So it has been, so it will be.
The right wing is in the process of self destruction.

 

[The T]

And 300,000,000 Americans elected Obama President. So you have no right to demonstrate against any of his policies that affect you, correct? For that is what you are stating concerning the teachers and Governor Walker.

Did I say that? Someone said the people of Wisconsin should decide how this plays out. I said they already have through the election.

Never said the minority couldn't protest it. It's childish, and they falsified gov't documents to be out of work that day (sick leave slips). But it's their protest right.

And yep, America elected Obama. And 2 years later, we realized what a fuck up that was, and swept the right wing back into offices across the land. 2012 will finish the job.

And the pendulum will swing again; power tends to corrupt and when change is too rapid, emotion and not reason prevail, those in power will overreach; the people will say, "enough!"
So it has been, so it will be.
The right wing is in the process of self destruction.

Wisconsin voters have already had it with the Statist Democrats and why they elected the present governor whom is doing what was asked of him.

~Go figure.

 

[chanel]

That seems reasonable, but here in the Garden State, cost of living varies as much as Topeka to Boston. And the quality of education does as well. We have some of the best public schools in the country, and some of the worst. It has everything to do with poverty and crime, and little to do with teacher effectiveness. (Except that one could argue that the best and the brightest generally find jobs in areas outside of the war zones) But that's a different discussion.

So the state sets the minimum compensation, and then other factors are used to adjust that. What would be those factors? Test scores? There are people who think that good teachers should be enticed to work in the worst performing schools. How would that work? There are people who believe education and seniority should have no bearing on salary. How would that work? I've yet to see any feasible solutions. Only a bunch of hysteria from both sides.

Christie cut the pay of dozens of superintendents capping their salary at 175K So now they are neogiating other perks like cars and vacation time. No collective bargaining there, but bargaining nonetheless.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Did I say that? Someone said the people of Wisconsin should decide how this plays out. I said they already have through the election.

Never said the minority couldn't protest it. It's childish, and they falsified gov't documents to be out of work that day (sick leave slips). But it's their protest right.

And yep, America elected Obama. And 2 years later, we realized what a fuck up that was, and swept the right wing back into offices across the land. 2012 will finish the job.

And the pendulum will swing again; power tends to corrupt and when change is too rapid, emotion and not reason prevail, those in power will overreach; the people will say, "enough!"
So it has been, so it will be.
The right wing is in the process of self destruction.

Wisconsin voters have already had it with the Statist Democrats and why they elected the present governor whom is doing what was asked of him.

~Go figure.

California voters elected Arnold in a wave of emotion, Arnold attempted to rule as an autocrat too; the voters slapped him silly and will do the same to Walker.
As for your ignorant brothers and sisters who call for wholesale firings, this is one more example of emotion overruling reason. Don't you guys on the right ever think about the consequences - intended and otherwise - of the things you wish to see happen?

 

[jillian]

All nice in theory. But it isn't what happens when government destroys collective bargaining for its workers. That is fantasy. What actually happens is they find excuses not to give raises... "merit" assessments become arbitrary means of denying people raises. COLA's become non-existent.... benefits become so costly that purchasing them would mean losing half your salary.

And government has a lot of nerve asking to do those things when they cut taxes for rich people.

 

[California Girl]

All nice in theory. But it isn't what happens when government destroys collective bargaining for its workers. That is fantasy. What actually happens is they find excuses not to give raises... "merit" assessments become arbitrary means of denying people raises. COLA's become non-existent.... benefits become so costly that purchasing them would mean losing half your salary.

And government has a lot of nerve asking to do those things when they cut taxes for rich people.

There's a Rich People's Union? Damn. I did not know that.

Also, they didn't 'cut taxes for rich people', they extended the current rates for everyone. Seems fair to me.... especially on the people who are already meeting 80% of that burden.

 

[Sallow]

Naw.

This be America.

And in America..the rights of the indivdual are supreme.

Unions are legal and Constitutionally protected.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Naw.

This be America.

And in America..the rights of the indivdual are supreme.

Unions are legal and Constitutionally protected.

Public sector unions may have an unfair advantage over private in that they can spend millions to vote a pol out of office...

but I don't see much of an advantage in outlawing same, based on the the changes in technology since 1959.

In '59, Wisconsin was the first state to allow public sector employees to unionize.
That was three years before JFK did the same for federal...

But now, with social networking, how can one expect to prevent organizing, albeit unofficial....

anyone notice same in the Middle East?

 

[The T]

And the pendulum will swing again; power tends to corrupt and when change is too rapid, emotion and not reason prevail, those in power will overreach; the people will say, "enough!"
So it has been, so it will be.
The right wing is in the process of self destruction.

Wisconsin voters have already had it with the Statist Democrats and why they elected the present governor whom is doing what was asked of him.

~Go figure.

California voters elected Arnold in a wave of emotion, Arnold attempted to rule as an autocrat too; the voters slapped him silly and will do the same to Walker.
As for your ignorant brothers and sisters who call for wholesale firings, this is one more example of emotion overruling reason. Don't you guys on the right ever think about the consequences - intended and otherwise - of the things you wish to see happen?

The Jerkinator was/is a Repubican/RINO.

 

[Sallow]

And yep, America elected Obama. And 2 years later, we realized what a fuck up that was, and swept the right wing back into offices across the land. 2012 will finish the job.

I love this sort of analysis. I hope that the conservative think-tanks are doing the same.

 

[Sallow]

Naw.

This be America.

And in America..the rights of the indivdual are supreme.

Unions are legal and Constitutionally protected.

Public sector unions may have an unfair advantage over private in that they can spend millions to vote a pol out of office...

but I don't see much of an advantage in outlawing same, based on the the changes in technology since 1959.

In '59, Wisconsin was the first state to allow public sector employees to unionize.
That was three years before JFK did the same for federal...

But now, with social networking, how can one expect to prevent organizing, albeit unofficial....

anyone notice same in the Middle East?

They can't. And it's silly to try.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Unions are a good thing but only until it begins to lack common sense. Unions should be held accountable as much as any corporation is held accountable. They don't get to be the last say in everything just because they are the union and they were useful 50 years ago.

They don't get the last say. There's a reason they call contract negotiations 'negotiations'.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Naw.

This be America.

And in America..the rights of the indivdual are supreme.

Unions are legal and Constitutionally protected.

Public sector unions may have an unfair advantage over private in that they can spend millions to vote a pol out of office...

And anti-union interests can't?

lolol

 

[chanel]

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, but would a superintendent have to sit down and negotiate the contracts of 1000+ employees? Reality check folks.

I predict that next year most high school teachers will have to teach 6 classes instead of 5. There will be longer school days and longer years. Teachers will contribute more to pension and health insurance. This will cost the avg teacher around 10-15K a year. And the teachers will will bitch but they'll make do.

Yet with all this "shared sacrifice" I still predict the public will not be satisfied. Why? Because Johnny still won't be able to read. Yep there's no money. But as I've said over and over again, this will not "fix" our educational system. Union busting has nothing to do with "the children" and everything to do with politics. Pretending otherwise is disingenuous and probably counter productive.

 

[mdn2000]

It seems to me that no person has a right to a public job, we can not afford to pay for them all so its time to fire them. I say fire 90% of all employees of the government.

Privatize everything, privatize and allow competition.

We can see there is no compromise, so fire them all and allow private citizens to start private business to replace the government bureacrisy, education seems a great place to start.

Working for the government should be a priviledge one does for free.

 

[Tea Bag Partier]

I'm not interested in being fair, or moderate.

End all unions. Make each individual bargain based only on his own merit. If you suck as an employee, you don't deserve increased pay and benefits. If you work hard and efficient, you get rewarded.

If a company doesn't reward good employees, then good employees leave for better jobs at their competition. Thus, the company has it in their best interest to retain the best employees.

By only having individual bargaining, employers can single out their best employees for the best treatment, and get rid of the slack and lazy weight.

End all unions, slowly but surely. We won, and will keep winning, more and more elections. This is step one to the road to conservatism. We have the momentum, and will win.

How exactly would you "end" all unions, without passing a fascist, unconstitutional, and un-american law by legislative mandate that would be akin to something they would do in North Korea?


And your sentiments do not appear to comport with Ronald Reagan. Reagan proudly served as president of a prominent labor union for many years. And I never heard him disavow the Screen Actors Guild, I never heard him say they should slash his union pension, and I never once heard him say the Screen Actors Guild should be banished and the perks, pensions, and benefits he got from that union be abolished.

 

[Anachronism]

I think I've got a rather unique viewpoint on this topic. I've been a Contractor, a Non-Union Employee, and am now a Union Employee (and currently department Steward) with the company that I currently work for.

I spent five years as a contractor, about eighteen months as a non-union employee, and have now been a Union employee for about three and a half years. Each one of those systems has had its positive and negative factors to it. The most positive of the Union factors.... I still have a job.

The company I work for wanted to ship my job to Syracuse, NY. Not because I can't do the job, or even because the people in Syracuse can do it better (or even as well). It's because the Syracuse workforce can produce work that is 80% of the quality of what I do for about 40% of the pay I receive. It would also take them longer to do it. The quality of the work meant nothing to the company. Only the fact that they could get a bunch of money off the books meant anything to them.

As I said, there are positives and negatives to all three of the ways I've been employed.

I've worked as a non-Union employee in two other engineering offices in the course of my life as well. In small companies, the non-Union workforce isn't that big of an issue, though there were times where nepotism and favoritism were obviously evident in both of those offices. That's the reason I chose to leave one of those companies in the first place.

In larger companies, where PROFIT is the only real interest or focus of the company, Unions still most definitely have a place in protecting and defending the rights of the workers.

I'm not saying that the Union is a panacea either. I really think that both sides need to sit down and realize that they BOTH win if the company is profitable and the employees are taken care of. All too often I see Union employees who think they work for the Union, not the company. By which I mean they're out to SCREW the company any way they can, and see their loyalty as being only to the UNION, rather than to who signs their paychecks. Likewise I see companies that are out to SCREW the Union and its employees at every turn, not realizing how much this destroys morale and workplace efficiency.

There needs to be a middle ground in these negotiations and viewpoints. A spot where the company gets to make its profits and the employees get treated fairly. I once heard a line, which I believes would be an excellent measuring stick for Union-Management negotiations.... "If, at the end of the day, everyone on both sides is equally pleased and displeased with the agreement, it's probably been done right."

Just my $0.02 for whatever it's worth.