Doe anyone truly believe a ceasefire in Gaza makes sense without the return of Israeli hostages?

[MarcATL]

Some very basic lesson of history seem to have been lost.

When you are in a war - regardless of who started it - you WIN the war by harming your enemy so badly that in the end they surrender and come to terms. This is what happened in WWII; the Germans and the Japanese each separately decided that their losses were no longer tolerable and they surrendered.

And so it will be with HAMAS. When they conclude that their losses are so damaging that they are no longer tolerable, they will surrender. This is how it is SUPPOSED TO WORK. That is how wars end.

A cease fire will do nothing but prolong the war and give Hamas the opportunity to re-load. This is not complicated.

Kinda makes you wonder what motivates all the world's Leftists in this matter.

So you're conflating the innocent Palestinian citizens w/Hamas, aren't you?

 

[Lisa558]

So you're conflating the innocent Palestinian citizens w/Hamas, aren't you?

The majority of Palestinians SUPPORT the barbaric torture to death of Jews on October 7th. Let’s not pretend they’re all so innocent. That’s just the leftists‘ ploy to make the Jews out to be the bad guys.

The Jews have been amazingly restrained to leave alive 99% of Palestinians when one considers how Palestinians were happy were Jews were butchered and set afire.

 

[JGalt]

The majority of Palestinians SUPPORT the barbaric torture to death of Jews on October 7th. Let’s not pretend they’re all so innocent. That’s just the leftists‘ ploy to make the Jews out to be the bad guys.

The Jews have been amazingly restrained to leave alive 99% of Palestinians when one considers how Palestinians were happy were Jews were butchered and set afire.

Nobody made a distinction between innocent German civilians and German Nazis when we bombed Dresden in WW2, or a distinction between innocent Japanese civilians and Imperialist Japanese when we nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And yet, those two events were what ended a world war.

It would suit me fine if Israel leveled Gaza, bulldozed the whole place, and turned it into the world's largest apple orchard.

 

[Lisa558]

Nobody made a distinction between innocent German civilians and German Nazis when we bombed Dresden in WW2, or a distinction between innocent Japanese civilians and Imperialist Japanese when we nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And yet, those two events were what ended a world war.

It would suit me fine if Israel leveled Gaza, bulldozed the whole place, and turned it into the world's largest apple orchard.

Can you imagine how beautiful the Jews would have it looking? It would be a beautiful seaside resort, in time for me to celebrate my 75th birthday, Gd-willing, in a fancy hotel room there.

 

[JGalt]

Can you imagine how beautiful the Jews would have it looking? It would be a beautiful seaside resort, in time for me to celebrate my 75th birthday, Gd-willing, in a fancy hotel room there.

A perfect place for the next Trump hotel, maybe a Walt Disney World resort there too.

 

[toomuchtime_]

With all due respect to those who demand this. Yes, I like humanity better when we aren't at war.with one another, I am a bit of a historian of war, not a fan of it preferring to prevent instead. However, the premise of a ceasefire when over 100 hostages are being held seems rather absurd. Even morally it might appear to be a betrayal of said hostages who were kidnapped from their own homes.

A limited ceasefire during which some hostages would be released would be fine, but the Biden administration has worked to separate the two issues, a ceasefire and hostage release, so that now Biden is calling for a ceasefire even without a hostage release for the purpose of relieving the suffering of Palestinian civilians who overwhelmingly support the Oct 7 attack is outrageous.

 

[Grau]

Meh Israel probably already killed them. For excuses.
I mean, dont put it past them. They have already done it. Even with them waving white flags..

I believe you're right.

Israel is so desperate to score P.R. points that the hostages have more propaganda value dead than alive.

In addition to gunning down the 3 half naked hostages waving white flags, IDF also fired tank rounds into a building full of hostages and also other Israelis were killed by IDF helicopters during the initial attack (1)

Therefore a significant number of Israelis and hostages were killed by trigger happy IDFers and blamed on Hamas.

Among the more popular Hasbara myths is that Hamas uses "Human Shields" as if IDF child killers are in the slightest bit deterred by women or children.

Not only is IDF unhindered by any women or children who may be in harm's way, they have been caught proudly shooting children for fun. (2)

Finally, the fact that Israel knew one year(3) in advance that Hamas was going to attack and also had numerous other specific warnings is a strong indication that at least some members of the Netanyahu regime wanted the attack to occur to justify Israel's genocidal Gaza land grab.

As I have repeatedly shown before.
This would not be the first time that fervent Zionists have been willing to sacrifice other Jews for a "Greater Israel":

“If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.”
Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth’s Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).

Ben-Gurion’s Notorious Quotes: Their Polemical Uses & Abuses

I’ve been engaged in a long-term e-mail debate with anti-Zionists, associated with David McReynolds, a former leader of the War Resisters’ League and a tiny remnant that still calls itself the Socialist Party, USA. Seth Farber, one of the most vociferous (although not quite the nastiest) of my...

www.progressiveisrael.org

Thanks,


(1). “Haaretz confirms Grayzone reporting it dismissed as ‘conspiracy’ showing Israel killed own festivalgoers”

Haaretz confirms Grayzone reporting it dismissed as ‘conspiracy’ showing Israel killed own festivalgoers - The Grayzone

Haaretz has yet to admit it jumped the gun when it dismissed The Grayzone’s Max Blumenthal as a ‘conspiracy theorist’ for documenting crucial evidence that Israeli forces killed Israelis on October 7. But new reports by the same outlet show we were right all along. Israeli outlet Haaretz has...

thegrayzone.com

EXCERPT “Israeli outlet Haaretz has acknowledged a police report confirmed partygoers at a festival three miles from the Gaza border were killed by the Israeli military on October 7, just two weeks after the publication accused Grayzone editor-in-chief Max Blumenthal of spreading “conspiracy theories” for reporting on the story.

In an article published November 19, Haaretz reporter Josh Breiner wrote that an official investigation into the deaths of Nova festival attendees “revealed that an IDF combat helicopter that arrived at the scene from the Ramat David base fired at the terrorists and apparently also hit some of the revelers who were there,” citing “a police source.” “ CONTINUED


(2). “Video Shows IDF Snipers Shooting Palestinian Children For Fun, But Facebook Won’t Let You Share It”

VIDEO: Video Shows IDF Snipers Shooting Palestinian Children For Fun, But Facebook Won’t Let You Share It | Neo-Griot

EXCERPT “Footage released on YouTube clearly shows Israeli soldiers firing live rounds at Palestinian children playing on a roof in Al Khalil, an area of Hebron in Occupied Palestine. An important piece of evidence attesting to the brutality of Israeli occupation. Yet, Facebook users have reported that the social media platform is preventing them from sharing the video.” CONTINUED


(3). "New York Times report says Israel knew about Hamas attack over a year in advance"

New York Times report says Israel knew about Hamas attack over a year in advance

The New York Times is reporting Israel knew about Hamas attack plans over a year before the Oct. 7 operation, but dismissed them as “aspirational."

apnews.com

EXCERPT "The attack was planned in plain sight. A month before the assault, Hamas posted a video to social media showing fighters using explosives to blast through a replica of the border gate, sweep in on pickup trucks and then move building by building through a full-scale reconstruction of an Israeli town, firing automatic weapons at human-silhouetted paper targets.

In the video, the militants destroyed mock-ups of the wall’s concrete towers and a communications antenna, just as they would do for real on Oct. 7.

Adding to public outrage over the military’s apparent negligence, the Israeli media has reported that military officials dismissed warnings from female border spotters who warned that they were witnessing Hamas’ preparations for the attack. According to the media reports, the young women reported seeing Hamas drones and attempts to knock out Israeli border cameras in the months leading up to the attack." CONTINUED

 

[USAF 2023]

There are no hostages still alive. If there were, Hamas would have already offered them in exchange for something.

Hamas just admitted they don’t have them. Why should Israel stop?

 

[Mac-7]

There are no hostages still alive. If there were, Hamas would have already offered them in exchange for something.

Or their personal experience in captivity is so horrible it would be even worse PR for hamas when they are free to tell their story

 

[Mac-7]

I believe you're right.

No, TNHarley is wrong

Only HAMAS has a reason to kill the hostages

 

[TNHarley]

No, TNHarley is wrong

Only HAMAS has a reason to kill the hostages

It wouldnt surprise me. Killing their own doesnt seem to be a problem for them.

 

[Mac-7]

It wouldnt surprise me. Killing their own doesnt seem to be a problem for them.

You mean HAMAS using Israeli hostages as human shields hasnt worked as the pals expected.

 

[TNHarley]

You mean HAMAS using Israeli hostages as human shields hasnt worked as the pals expected.

The guys walked out waving a white flag and they shot their own people. That has nothing to do with HAMAS.

 

[rosends]

Of course it does, how does genociding innocent Palestinian citizens HELP in getting the hostages?

Doe anyone truly believe a ceasefire in Gaza makes sense without the return of Israeli hostages?

With all due respect to those who demand this. Yes, I like humanity better when we aren't at war.with one another, I am a bit of a historian of war, not a fan of it preferring to prevent instead. However, the premise of a ceasefire when over 100 hostages are being held seems rather absurd...

www.usmessageboard.com

 

[Mac-7]

The guys walked out waving a white flag and they shot their own people. That has nothing to do with HAMAS.

I havent heard that story

Do you have a link?

 

[rosends]

I havent heard that story

Do you have a link?

Israel's military says hostages waved a white flag before being killed by a soldier

Updated December 16, 2023 at 12:27 PM ET TEL AVIV, Israel — An investigation into the killing of three hostages held by Hamas in Gaza has found that the captives […]

www.wpr.org

 

[Mac-7]

Israel's military says hostages waved a white flag before being killed by a soldier

Updated December 16, 2023 at 12:27 PM ET TEL AVIV, Israel — An investigation into the killing of three hostages held by Hamas in Gaza has found that the captives […]

www.wpr.org

Thats very unfortunate

I believe the part about the IDF thinking they were terrorists

But the claim that the soldiers felt threatened is probably not true

 

[TNHarley]

Thats very unfortunate

I believe the part about the IDF thinking they were terrorists

But the claim that the soldiers felt threatened is probably not true

You would think they knew who the hostages were..
Oh wait, they did. Because they blasted their pictures all over the planet.

 

[rosends]

Thats very unfortunate

I believe the part about the IDF thinking they were terrorists

But the claim that the soldiers felt threatened is probably not true

I don't know and I wasn't there but the fact that an investigation was done, nothing was covered up and fault was admitted is significant.

 

[there4eyeM]

Given that the entire State of Israel is a hostage (and made itself one by choosing to place itself in the middle of a world that hates and hated it), negotiating to try and stop making things even worse only makes sense. That is mere 'réal politique', not pro or anti anyone.