Doe anyone truly believe a ceasefire in Gaza makes sense without the return of Israeli hostages?

[RetiredGySgt]

Still waiting for credible source for your bullshit claim.

 

[Grau]

This is perfectly clear. It is an odious statement. The problem I have is that you are using one emotional statement, yes, even by the Defense Minister, in the midst of an invasion, attack, and the commission of atrocities against the sovereign people of Israel as an indication that Israel, as a whole, either its government or its people, have an ongoing policy toward causing the starvation of the people of Gaza with intent and purpose to commit genocide.

This is so easily refuted by the ACTIONS taken by the Israeli government in the past six months, that it defies belief anyone could hold such an opinion, let alone one who calls for "objectivity". There are hundreds of trucks going in to Gaza every day. Food. Water. Fuel. Medical supplies. Emergency shelters. Not only are both truck crossings open and functioning, but there is now an operating port(!) for this purpose. Things are not "closed". You can argue that there is not ENOUGH. You can argue that it takes too much TIME to inspect each truck. You can argue that there is inadequate DISTRIBUTION. You can argue the significant DANGER inherent during an active conflict. These would be reasonable and objective arguments. But arguing that "no food, no water, no fuel" is entering Gaza is patently ridiculous.

The objectivity and credibility of the humanitarian organizations IS in question. I would be happy to delve into that further, should you wish to pursue that line of conversation.

But let's discuss the specific claims made by Oxfam in their report. They are:

1. A total military siege amounting to collective punishment.
2. An unjustifiably inefficient process of inspection protocols.
3. Arbitrary rejection of "dual-use" items.
4. Decimation, destruction, disruption.
5. Attacks on aid workers, humanitarian facilities, and aid convoys.
6. Absence of safety and forced displacement.
7. Systematic denial of humanitarian missions and access restrictions humanitarian workers.

Did you want to start at the top? Or do you have a favourite?

First of all, I'd like to thank you for your civility and willingness to engage in substantive discussion.

I feel obligated to clarify that I am not anti Israel and feel that it is a government's responsibility to protect its citizens. The Netanyahu government has not only failed to deliver any measure of security, it has made Israel's citizens less secure than ever by deliberately ignoring numerous, specific warning signs of the widely known attack of 7 October.

I would far prefer to see the everyday Israeli people enjoy a "Rocket-free" lifestyle and enjoy the many blessings that their country has to offer rather than to suffer the day to day anxiety of being in a constant state of conflict.

In spite of the fact that I wish a similar autonomy, prosperity and security for the Palestinians, neither I nor anyone else who regards the current IDF operation in Gaza a genocide would have objected to a proportionate and more surgical retaliatory strike.

Instead, Netanyahu has incurred global anti Israel / anti Jewish sentiment, galvanized and united Israel's enemies and alienated countries that help support Israel.

Re:

This is perfectly clear. It is an odious statement. The problem I have is that you are using one emotional statement, yes, even by the Defense Minister,

I appreciate your condemning Israel's Defense Ministers sentiments expressed in his quote below:

“Israeli Minister of Defense Yoav Gallant declared it in no uncertain terms on October 9th: “We are imposing a complete siege on Gaza. No electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals, and we will act accordingly.”

I am concerned that such extremist rhetoric only exemplifies a deep and genocidal hatred that is driving Netanyahu's genocidal destruction of Gaza for which Israel's extremist "Settlers" already have plans to steal:

"Jewish settlers set their sights on Gaza beachfront"​

Jewish settlers set their sights on Gaza beachfront

They see an opportunity to push for a return of Jewish settlements to the Palestinian territory.

www.bbc.com

EXCEPTS "Opinion polls suggest that most Israelis oppose resettling Gaza, and it is not government policy, but since the Hamas attacks on 7 October it is being talked about out loud - by some of the loudest and most extreme voices in Israel's government.

I put it to her that her comments sound like a plan for ethnic cleansing. She does not deny it.

"You can call it ethnic cleansing. I repeat again, the Arabs do not want, normal Arabs do not want to live in Gaza. If you want to call it cleansing, if you want to call it apartheid, you choose your definition. I choose the way to protect the state of Israel. " CONTINUED


I wish that Yoav Gallant's threat: "...No electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything is closed." was as rare and out of context as you have suggested.

I'm afraid, however, that Israel's Agriculture Minister Avi Dichter is quoted as saying: "We are now rolling out the Gaza Nakba." which also shows support for Netanyahu's genocidal agenda:

"Benjamin Netanyahu Is the War Criminal of the Year"

Benjamin Netanyahu Is the War Criminal of the Year

Experts aren't mincing words about the Israeli leader's brutal and disproportionate response to the October 7 Hamas attacks.

newrepublic.com

"Experts aren't mincing words about the Israeli leader's brutal and disproportionate response to the October 7 Hamas attacks."

EXCERPT "Israeli officials, in their own words, seem to tacitly acknowledge that their critics’ worst fears are far from unfounded. In early November, Israeli security cabinet member and Agriculture Minister Avi Dichter said “We are now rolling out the Gaza Nakba,” referring to the war against Palestinians and seizure of territory that marked Israel’s founding in 1948." CONTINUED

I didn't mean to evade discussing the 7 claims made by Oxfam because I thought that they would only be useful if Oxfam was the only reputable organization making claims like that.

Briefly put, I feel that broader hostilities and far greater casualties are inevitable because of the extremists on both sides are so clearly expressing genocidal obsessions.

Do you feel that there will be a significant Islamic response if Gaza's existing civilians are killed and expelled and Settlers move in or do you feel that the Islamic world is too indifferent to get involved?

Thanks

 

[Shusha]

Do you feel that there will be a significant Islamic response if Gaza's existing civilians are killed and expelled and Settlers move in or do you feel that the Islamic world is too indifferent to get involved?

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "Islamic". I think the best success we have had with peace and prosperity is when Jews and Arabs live together under Israeli rule. It tends to cut down on the radicalization and demonization of the other. For that reason, I think it is a good idea for Jewish Israelis to move into Gaza.

 

[Grau]

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "Islamic". I think the best success we have had with peace and prosperity is when Jews and Arabs live together under Israeli rule. It tends to cut down on the radicalization and demonization of the other. For that reason, I think it is a good idea for Jewish Israelis to move into Gaza.

History has shown that Arabs and Jews seem to get along the best under British rule without Zionists around to murder, steal and torment their neighbors. (1)
Again, I think that is the extremists on both sides that are responsible for most of the carnage and it was the foreign, Nazi armed and trained Zionist terrorist gangs who killed British Christians and Palestine's along with pre existing Muslims with the same self righteous zeal.

Certainly life for Jews is great under Zionist / Israeli rule where non Jews are relegated to 2nd Class citizenry under Israel's racist "Nationality Law", subject to unprovoked persecution, mass murder and land theft.
I'm citing the recent mass murder, land theft, home destruction etc of the West Bank Muslims who had nothing to do with 7 October 2023.
I can't imagine any people who would tolerate the criminal persecution that Palestine's native residents have endured for 80 years, can you?

Re:

It tends to cut down on the radicalization and demonization of the other.

Please explain how the Israeli government's IDF aiding and abetting Zionist radicalization, demonization, mass murder and land theft (3) tends to "cut down on" genocidal Zionist extremism.

I think it is a good idea for Jewish Israelis to move into Gaza.

Finally, I don't know where you live or how long you've lived there but if you are like everyone else I've asked, you would resist the foreign invader - occupiers by any means possible.

When Saddam thought that it would be a "good idea" to invade Kuwait, UN Resolution 678 was passed and the Iraqi invader / occupiers were quickly and brutally slaughtered and expelled as was all of Iraq's military capability.

Meanwhile, it is not lost on the Islamic world that UN Resolutions # 242 and # 338 gather dust on the shelf while UN Resolutions against Islamic countries are quickly and brutally enforced.

Do you really think that it is ever a "good idea" to forcibly displace an existing population, steal their land and install militant Zionist "Settlers"?

Thanks,


(1). “Top Ten Myths about the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict”
http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2010/06/17/top-ten-myths-about-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/

EXCERPT "Myth #1 – Jews and Arabs have always been in conflict in the region.

"Although Arabs were a majority in Palestine prior to the creation of the state of Israel, there had always been a Jewish population, as well. For the most part, Jewish Palestinians got along with their Arab neighbors. This began to change with the onset of the Zionist movement, because the Zionists rejected the right of the Palestinians to self-determination and wanted Palestine for their own, to create a “Jewish State” in a region where Arabs were the majority and owned most of the land.

"The British Hope-Simpson report of 1930 similarly noted that Jewish residents of non-Zionist communities in Palestine enjoyed friendship with their Arab neighbors. “It is quite a common sight to see an Arab sitting in the verandah of a Jewish house”, the report noted. “The position is entirely different in the Zionist colonies."CONTINUED


(2). "Israel Must Loudly Arrest the Murderous West Bank Settlers"

Israel Must Loudly Arrest the Settlers Who Are Killing West Bank Palestinians

Or risk losing any moral authority in this war.

slate.com

EXCERPT "Since Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack, settlers there have killed more than 120 Palestinians and injured at least 2,000. They have forcibly expelled more than 800 Palestinians from their homes, blown up their generators and solar panels, and burned down tents of Bedouin herders.

Again: This has been going on not in Gaza but in the West Bank—which is governed by the Palestinian Authority, not by Hamas." CONTINUED

(3). "Lines Increasingly Blurred Between Soldiers and Settlers in the West Bank"​

"Israeli attacks on Palestinians there have surged since the Israel-Hamas war began."​

Lines Increasingly Blurred Between Soldiers and Settlers in the West Bank

Israeli attacks on Palestinians there have surged since the Israel-Hamas war began.

foreignpolicy.com

EXCERPT "The violence itself is not new, but two things are worth watching. As the attacks spread, there’s growing evidence that soldiers and settlers are working hand in hand." CONTINUED

 

[Ringo]

 

[P F Tinmore]

No, of course not, but your question is irrelevant. The issue of how and when it is legal to kill civilians in a war is the subject of International Humanitarian Law, which Israel has been following meticulously. No IDF general can order a strike on a target that might cause civilian damage unless IDF lawyers first certify it would be in compliance with IHL.

Load of hooey. Israel bombs family homes all of the time. They have for decades. It is SOP.

They kill mom and the kids, sisters, aunts, grandmas. Civilians have always been the targets.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Load of hooey. Israel bombs family homes all of the time. They have for decades. It is SOP.

They kill mom and the kids, sisters, aunts, grandmas. Civilians have always been the targets.

I think even you know that's not true. Civilians die in wars, but they are not targeted by the IDF. In this war, 11% of the rockets fired at Israel, 1100 rockets, crashed in Gaza, no doubt accounting for many civilian casualties, and in 2008, 30% of the rockets fired at Israel crashed in Gaza. It is the madness of the Palestinians trying to undo the 1948 war that established Israel that is the cause of all the civilian casualties.

 

[Shusha]

Finally, I don't know where you live or how long you've lived there but if you are like everyone else I've asked, you would resist the foreign invader - occupiers by any means possible.

And this would be where you misunderstand my position. I am Canadian of Scots/Irish descent and live in Canada. I fully support the self-determination, independence, and sovereignty of the First Nations (indigenous) peoples.

The Jewish people (the collective of Jewish people) are the indigenous peoples of Israel, Judea and Samaria. I fully support the self-determination, independence, and sovereignty of the Jewish people.

And no, "resistance by any means necessary" is not at all the only way to cope with secession of a peoples in order to fulfill their aspirations for self-determination and sovereignty. There are numerous examples, including the First Nations people of Canada.

 

[Shusha]

Let's not have a discussion about this that doesn't include the context. An Israeli child was kidnapped and murdered. The security forces are trying to find the child's murderer. The government of Israel is urging Israeli citizens NOT to get involved and to let security forces do their work.

 

[bendog]

And this would be where you misunderstand my position. I am Canadian of Scots/Irish descent and live in Canada. I fully support the self-determination, independence, and sovereignty of the First Nations (indigenous) peoples.

The Jewish people (the collective of Jewish people) are the indigenous peoples of Israel, Judea and Samaria. I fully support the self-determination, independence, and sovereignty of the Jewish people.

And no, "resistance by any means necessary" is not at all the only way to cope with secession of a peoples in order to fulfill their aspirations for self-determination and sovereignty. There are numerous examples, including the First Nations people of Canada.

But the Jews dispossed the people who were living in caanan, at least according to the tales of Joshua. Nevertheless, some scientific evidence suggests the Jews were merely one segment of Canaanites, and may actually be indigenous ... althought the Sabra and Palestinians share similar DNA.

 

[Shusha]

But the Jews dispossed the people who were living in caanan, at least according to the tales of Joshua. Nevertheless, some scientific evidence suggests the Jews were merely one segment of Canaanites, and may actually be indigenous ... althought the Sabra and Palestinians share similar DNA.

I am extremely uncomfortable with using blood quantum or DNA measures to "prove" ancestry for the purpose of determining people's rights. The value for determining indigeneity is (and should be) culture.

 

[bendog]

I am extremely uncomfortable with using blood quantum or DNA measures to "prove" ancestry for the purpose of determining people's rights. The value for determining indigeneity is (and should be) culture.

Well, then the Jews lose. Joshua.

 

[Shusha]

Well, then the Jews lose. Joshua.

I'm not sure what you mean. The Jewish people are indigenous to that land.

 

[the watcher]

There's not much over there that does make sense.

 

[Grau]

Load of hooey. Israel bombs family homes all of the time. They have for decades. It is SOP.

They kill mom and the kids, sisters, aunts, grandmas. Civilians have always been the targets.

Thanks for your brief but irrefutable observations about Zionist atrocities against Palestine's weakest victims.

Nazi trained and armed Zionist terrorist gangs from Europe began their 80 year old genocidal agenda by butchering Palestine's native residents (1) during the the ongoing Nakba.

Perhaps one of the most absurd of the countless Hasbara scripts parroted by the innumerable paid, scripted and trained Habara trolls here is that:
"Hamas hides behind human shields."

This particular canard is among the most popular Hasbara lies in spite of being one of the most easily debunked because for those chicken-hearted IDFers, shooting unarmed children at play (2) is much safer than mixing it up with Hamas resistance fighters.

Finally, how do these brave child killers display their trophies?

Why, T-shirts, of course.

“Israeli Army T-Shirts Mock Dead Palestinian Babies, Bombed Mosques”
Israeli Army T-Shirts Mock Dead Palestinian Babies, Bombed Mosques

EXCERPT “Dead babies, mothers weeping on their children's graves, a gun aimed at a child and bombed-out mosques - these are a few examples of the images Israel Defense Forces soldiers design these days to print on shirts they order to mark the end of training, or of field duty. The slogans accompanying the drawings are not exactly anemic either: A T-shirt for infantry snipers bears the inscription "Better use Durex," next to a picture of a dead Palestinian baby, with his weeping mother and a teddy bear beside him.”CONTINUED


So, the next time one of Netanyahu's clueless shills starts to recite his Hasbara script about "Hamas uses children as human shields to hide behind.", just remind them that only "the most moral army in the world" shoots "Human Shields" for" fun".


Thanks and keep up the good work.

​

(1) “Deir Yasin Massacre, 09.04.1948”

https://www.countercurrents.org/alhelsi100410.htm

EXCERPT " One of the worst Zionist massacres committed against Palestinians is the Deir Yasin massacre. Defenceless Palestinian civilians were tortured before being massacres and their bodies mutilated. Women and children were raped, babies were butchered and pregnant women were bayoneted." CONTINUED



(2). “Video Shows IDF Snipers Shooting Palestinian Children For Fun, But Facebook Won’t Let You Share It”

VIDEO: Video Shows IDF Snipers Shooting Palestinian Children For Fun, But Facebook Won’t Let You Share It | Neo-Griot

EXCERPT “Footage released on YouTube clearly shows Israeli soldiers firing live rounds at Palestinian children playing on a roof in Al Khalil, an area of Hebron in Occupied Palestine. An important piece of evidence attesting to the brutality of Israeli occupation. Yet, Facebook users have reported that the social media platform is preventing them from sharing the video.” CONTINUED

(3). ‘Not a normal war’: doctors say children have been targeted by Israeli snipers in Gaza"​

âNot a normal warâ: doctors say children have been targeted by Israeli snipers in Gaza

IDF says it ‘completely rejects’ charge that its soldiers deliberately fired on any of the thousands of civilians killed in Israeli offensive

www.theguardian.com

EXCERPT. "Eyewitness accounts and video recordings appear to back up claims that Israeli soldiers have fired on civilians, including children, outside of combat with Hamas or other armed groups. In some cases, witnesses describe coming under fire while waving white flags. Haaretz reported on Saturday that Israel routinely fires on civilians in areas its military has declared a “combat zone”."CONTINUED

 

[Grau]

Still waiting for credible source for your bullshit claim.

You don't want a credible source because I've already provided plenty of them.

Since you really want something that denies reality, I'm afraid that you're on your own.

If you're looking for lies, there's no better place to start than AIPAC:


- "Israel Lobby Pushes Lie That People Are Not Starving in Gaza: Report"

Israel Lobby Pushes Lie That People Are Not Starving in Gaza: Report

As Gaza nears famine, the pro-Israel lobby AIPAC instructs supporters to tell lawmakers that “reports that people are starving in Gaza are false.”

www.rollingstone.com

EXCERPT "As Gaza nears famine, the pro-Israel lobby AIPAC instructs supporters to tell lawmakers that “reports that people are starving in Gaza are false” " CONTINUED