Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

[Blues Man]

Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

Most, as well as scriptures, say that it was through Adam, even though Christians sing that Adam’s sin was a happy fault and necessary to Yahweh’s plan.

Given the necessity, Adam, from that, may not be the culpable one and his punishment would be unjust.

Satan had already sinned in heaven before being cast into Eden.

It can be truthfully said that she was the first sinner on earth if we ignore Yahweh.

Further, would you say that Eve sinned, given that Satan or the talking serpent deceived her?

That deception would take lies, and that is a sin, and that sin also preceded Adam’s sin.

Many do not see what the serpent says as a lie, which complicates things.

Was the initial sin, regardless of who did it, a happy fault and necessary to god’s plan like Christians sing in their Exultet hymn?

Did Yahweh lie when he told Adam that he would die if he educated himself with the knowledge in the Tree of Knowledge?

Why and how does knowledge kill us?

If it does, should we keep our children as blind to it as Adam and Eve initially were?

The Eden myth can get quite complicated, especially when Christians call it a fall, then say it was necessary so as not to derail Yahweh’s plan.

This last being what the Jews wrote into their myth and which they say is not the Original Sin of the Christian interpretation, but more like the Original virtue that the Jews call it.

The opposite of what Christianity says, if you ignore their happy fault view.

In terms of first sin, I see Yahweh, since sin was necessary to him as the first sinner, followed by Satan, Yahweh’s loyal opposition and teacher of humankind, and then Adam.

Why Eve at the end of Genesis 3 has to then be second class to Adam, --- he shall rule over you, --- would seem like Yahweh punishing the wrong party.

Thoughts?

Regards
DL

Gods create sin by prohibiting things.

It's a sin to eat an apple
It's a sin to ___________________ ( fill in the blank)

No gods, no sin.

 

[GreatestIam]

One must understand that God the Father is an all knowing being. He knows the future before it occurs. He knew that by placing Satan and his followers on earth that they would tempt Eve and she would succomb to their temptation. God the Father even called and chose a Savior of the world before ever placing Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden knowing full well what the outcome would be. Certainly with God's foreknowledge he could have changed the whole plan before it happened and avoided it altogether. But He didn't. Why?

The answer is because this was the plan all along that mankind enter a fallen mortal world and experience good and evil. God himself even said that once Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit that they had become like the Gods.

Genesis 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

God, being a good being, wanted his creatures to become more like himself. This is one of the reason He set up the entire scenario was to allow mankind to enter a fallen state and experience good and evil. He also provided a Savior before all of this took place so that every fallen man who enters the world and receives a body would eventually be resurrected to an immortal body and live forever. Thus the end game was give mankind a knowledge of good and evil and become more like God all the while ensuring that they would all eventually resurrect and become immortal and live forever.

This life is a learning ground for us to choose good over evil and become the best beings we can, given the circumstances. Free will is critical for us to progress. Through free choice we make decisions in and of ourselves what kind of being we wish to become. Those who choose to be a good being of their own free will are truly good beings. Who would you trust more, a being who is forced to be a good being or a being who had chosen to be a good being of his own free will and choice?

Your bible says we have no free choice as Yahweh decides who he will give the grace to believe and who he will deny.

Ask Pharaoh if he had a free choice or free will when his will was changed.

You said Yahweh was good.

Explain how a genocidal, homophobic and misogynous god can possibly be good.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

Gods create sin by prohibiting things.

It's a sin to eat an apple
It's a sin to ___________________ ( fill in the blank)

No gods, no sin.

I see little difference from naturalism and Christianity when the bible is read the right way.

Nature forces us to do evil when we compete and create a loser.

I have no problem of evil.

As to Eden, to call knowledge an apple is to downplay what the prize of Eden was.

Regards
DL

 

[ding]

"Genesis 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

Who was God speaking to?

You should really stop reading Genesis literally. Or at least stop making arguments based upon literal readings.

 

[.oldschool]

You should really stop reading Genesis literally. Or at least stop making arguments based upon literal readings.

Metaphysical meaning of tree (rw) | Truth Unity

Metaphysical meaning of tree (rw) trees--Represent nerves, and nerves are expressions of thoughts of unity. They connect thought centers.

www.truthunity.net

 

[ding]

Metaphysical meaning of tree (rw) | Truth Unity

Metaphysical meaning of tree (rw) trees--Represent nerves, and nerves are expressions of thoughts of unity. They connect thought centers.

www.truthunity.net

That's too deep for me. I believe that knowledge of good an evil is an artifact of intelligence. I believe all that ancient man was saying is that man stands apart from the rest of creation because he has knowledge of good and evil.

 

[ding]

I see little difference from naturalism and Christianity when the bible is read the right way.

Nature forces us to do evil when we compete and create a loser.

I have no problem of evil.

As to Eden, to call knowledge an apple is to downplay what the prize of Eden was.

Regards
DL

You would be the last person in the world that I would expect to read the Bible the right way. All of your arguments are based upon ridiculous renderings of the Bible.

That you believe the Bible literally calls knowledge an apple is proof of your ridiculous renderings of the Bible.

 

[ding]

Explain how a genocidal, homophobic and misogynous god can possibly be good.

This is more proof of your ridiculous renderings of the Bible.

God created existence. All existence is good. Blaming the actions of men on God is idiotic.

 

[ding]

Gods create sin by prohibiting things.

It's a sin to eat an apple
It's a sin to ___________________ ( fill in the blank)

No gods, no sin.

Buddhist may call sin another name but the concept is the same nonetheless.

So... no. No gods does not mean no sin.

• Sin easily develops.—Rock Inscriptions of Asoka. [Source: “The Essence of Buddhism” Edited by E. Haldeman-Julius, 1922, Project Gutenberg]
• He sees danger in even the least of those things he should avoid.—Tevijja-sutta.
• May I never do, nor cause to be done, nor contemplate the doing of, even the most trivial sin!—Attanagalu-vansa (conclusion).
• Scrupulously avoiding all wicked actions; Reverently performing all virtuous ones; Purifying his intention from all selfish ends: This is the doctrine of all the Buddhas. —Siau-chi-kwan.
• The sinner is never beautiful.—Lalita Vistara.
• He who ... cannot feel joy to see merit in others is stained with the darkness of sin.—Story of Pratiharyya.
• Those who have sin at heart, but are sweet of speech, are like a pitcher smeared with nectar, but full of poison.—Lalita Vistara.
• Causing destruction to living beings, killing and mutilating, ... stealing and speaking falsely, fraud and deception, ... these are (what defile a man).—Amagandha-sutta.
• You do not well enticing me to a sinful act. And what you say, that "nobody else will know of it"—will it be less sinful for this reason?—Jatakamala.
• There is no such thing as secrecy in wrongdoing.—Jataka.
• Therefore ... we would humble ourselves and repent us of our sins. Oh! that we may have strength to do so aright!—Liturgy of Kwan-yin.
• If we know that we have done wrong, and yet refuse to acknowledge it, we are guilty of prevarication.—Chinese Pratimoksha.
• From the very first, ... having no wish to benefit others, or to do good in the least degree, we have been adding sin unto sin; and even though our actual crimes have not been so great, yet a wicked heart has ruled us within. Day and night, without interval or hesitation, have we continually contrived how to do wrong.—Liturgy of Kwan-yin.
• Accept the confession I make of my sin in its sinfulness, to the end that in future I may restrain myself therefrom.—Cullavagga.
• May I never, even in a dream, be guilty of theft, adultery, drunkenness, life-slaughter, and untruthfulness.—Attanagalu-vansa.

 

[surada]

You should really stop reading Genesis literally. Or at least stop making arguments based upon literal readings.

I agree that the Bible should not be read literally.. and we should stop altering OT scripture. So what is the meaning of Genesis 3:22?

 

[ding]

I agree that the Bible should not be read literally.. and we should stop altering OT scripture. So what is the meaning of Genesis 3:22?

You have to read the whole account and not a single verse. Here's what I get from reading the whole passage.

Man knows right from wrong (which is why they hid when they heard God approaching).

When man does wrong, rather than abandoning his preference for good, he rationalizes he did not do wrong.

God: Have you eaten from the tree of which I had forbidden you to eat?​

Adam: The woman whom you put here with me—she gave me fruit from the tree, so I ate it.​

God to Eve: What is this you have done?​

Eve: The snake tricked me, so I ate it.​

So both Adam and Eve made excuses for why it wasn't their fault and refused to take accountability for their actions.

It was only after they made excuses that a judgement was rendered.

In actuality God didn't punish anyone. It's not a surprise that man behaves the way he does. It's man's own poor behaviors in failing to take accountability that leads to his suffering.

So all Genesis 3:22 is saying is that knowledge of good and evil is an artifact of intelligence. If you are trying to read Genesis 3:22 as some insight as to the nature of God, you are missing the intent of the author. Man stands apart from the rest of creation because he is a being that knows and creates like no other creature.

So in summary... man - by virtue of his unique intelligence has a concept of good and evil that no other creature in creation posses. And man punishes himself by not taking accountability when he does wrong.

 

[onefour1]

"Genesis 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

Who was God speaking to?

It is likely that Jesus was speaking to his Father or His Father was speaking to him.

 

[onefour1]

Your bible says we have no free choice as Yahweh decides who he will give the grace to believe and who he will deny.

Ask Pharaoh if he had a free choice or free will when his will was changed.

You said Yahweh was good.

Explain how a genocidal, homophobic and misogynous god can possibly be good.

Regards
DL

The bible does not teach that we have no free will. If we didn't have free will, we would be forced to be good little angels.

Pharaoh had the free will to change his mind anytime he wanted to.

Yahweh is good and never sinned when he was born on this earth.

I don't know of any genocidal, homophobic, or misogynous God. Satan is that way but he is no God.

 

[surada]

It is likely that Jesus was speaking to his Father or His Father was speaking to him.

It reads "And the Lord God said"....

 

[Blues Man]

Buddhist may call sin another name but the concept is the same nonetheless.

So... no. No gods does not mean no sin.

There is no concept of sin in Buddhism.

 

[ding]

There is no concept of sin in Buddhism.

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

 

[Blues Man]

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

There is no rose.

There is no concept of sin in Buddhism.

There is nothing forbidden and there are no punishments or rewards.

 

[ding]

There is no rose.

There is no concept of sin in Buddhism.

There is nothing forbidden and there are no punishments or rewards.

• Sin easily develops.—Rock Inscriptions of Asoka. [Source: “The Essence of Buddhism” Edited by E. Haldeman-Julius, 1922, Project Gutenberg]
• He sees danger in even the least of those things he should avoid.—Tevijja-sutta.
• May I never do, nor cause to be done, nor contemplate the doing of, even the most trivial sin!—Attanagalu-vansa (conclusion).
• Scrupulously avoiding all wicked actions; Reverently performing all virtuous ones; Purifying his intention from all selfish ends: This is the doctrine of all the Buddhas. —Siau-chi-kwan.
• The sinner is never beautiful.—Lalita Vistara.
• He who ... cannot feel joy to see merit in others is stained with the darkness of sin.—Story of Pratiharyya.
• Those who have sin at heart, but are sweet of speech, are like a pitcher smeared with nectar, but full of poison.—Lalita Vistara.
• Causing destruction to living beings, killing and mutilating, ... stealing and speaking falsely, fraud and deception, ... these are (what defile a man).—Amagandha-sutta.
• You do not well enticing me to a sinful act. And what you say, that "nobody else will know of it"—will it be less sinful for this reason?—Jatakamala.
• There is no such thing as secrecy in wrongdoing.—Jataka.
• Therefore ... we would humble ourselves and repent us of our sins. Oh! that we may have strength to do so aright!—Liturgy of Kwan-yin.
• If we know that we have done wrong, and yet refuse to acknowledge it, we are guilty of prevarication.—Chinese Pratimoksha.
• From the very first, ... having no wish to benefit others, or to do good in the least degree, we have been adding sin unto sin; and even though our actual crimes have not been so great, yet a wicked heart has ruled us within. Day and night, without interval or hesitation, have we continually contrived how to do wrong.—Liturgy of Kwan-yin.
• Accept the confession I make of my sin in its sinfulness, to the end that in future I may restrain myself therefrom.—Cullavagga.
• May I never, even in a dream, be guilty of theft, adultery, drunkenness, life-slaughter, and untruthfulness.—Attanagalu-vansa.

 

[surada]

Your bible says we have no free choice as Yahweh decides who he will give the grace to believe and who he will deny.

Ask Pharaoh if he had a free choice or free will when his will was changed.

You said Yahweh was good.

Explain how a genocidal, homophobic and misogynous god can possibly be good.

Regards
DL

In the story didn't God harden Pharaoh's heart?

 

[Blues Man]

• Sin easily develops.—Rock Inscriptions of Asoka. [Source: “The Essence of Buddhism” Edited by E. Haldeman-Julius, 1922, Project Gutenberg]
• He sees danger in even the least of those things he should avoid.—Tevijja-sutta.
• May I never do, nor cause to be done, nor contemplate the doing of, even the most trivial sin!—Attanagalu-vansa (conclusion).
• Scrupulously avoiding all wicked actions; Reverently performing all virtuous ones; Purifying his intention from all selfish ends: This is the doctrine of all the Buddhas. —Siau-chi-kwan.
• The sinner is never beautiful.—Lalita Vistara.
• He who ... cannot feel joy to see merit in others is stained with the darkness of sin.—Story of Pratiharyya.
• Those who have sin at heart, but are sweet of speech, are like a pitcher smeared with nectar, but full of poison.—Lalita Vistara.
• Causing destruction to living beings, killing and mutilating, ... stealing and speaking falsely, fraud and deception, ... these are (what defile a man).—Amagandha-sutta.
• You do not well enticing me to a sinful act. And what you say, that "nobody else will know of it"—will it be less sinful for this reason?—Jatakamala.
• There is no such thing as secrecy in wrongdoing.—Jataka.
• Therefore ... we would humble ourselves and repent us of our sins. Oh! that we may have strength to do so aright!—Liturgy of Kwan-yin.
• If we know that we have done wrong, and yet refuse to acknowledge it, we are guilty of prevarication.—Chinese Pratimoksha.
• From the very first, ... having no wish to benefit others, or to do good in the least degree, we have been adding sin unto sin; and even though our actual crimes have not been so great, yet a wicked heart has ruled us within. Day and night, without interval or hesitation, have we continually contrived how to do wrong.—Liturgy of Kwan-yin.
• Accept the confession I make of my sin in its sinfulness, to the end that in future I may restrain myself therefrom.—Cullavagga.
• May I never, even in a dream, be guilty of theft, adultery, drunkenness, life-slaughter, and untruthfulness.—Attanagalu-vansa.

Start with the definition of sin not what some people say it is.

Definition of SIN

an offense against religious or moral law; an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible; an often serious shortcoming : fault… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

You seem to think that Buddhism is the same as your religion in its structure. It isn't

There is no god in Buddhism, no god given laws no original sin, nothing that can be forgiven by a god or higher power no punishment or retribution that can be imposed by a god. In Buddhism the individual is responsible for his own suffering and can end it at anytime without the forgiveness of a god

Buddhism follows a different conceptual framework from the Abrahamic religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam. As a result, many of the ideas and definitions found in Buddhism differ from those found in other religions. The monotheistic idea of sin found in the Abrahamic religions is a foreign concept to the Buddhist belief system.


This is a case of there not being an adequate English word for the Buddhist concept.